Sabbath Bloody Sabbath the first prog met |
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acheron
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 12 2005 Status: Offline Points: 148 |
Topic: Sabbath Bloody Sabbath the first prog met Posted: July 30 2006 at 14:27 |
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dude thats retarded, ongoing themes throughout albums is prog., that should be the only criteria if you ask me, thats why its called progressive... progress...
prog doesn't need 11/16 time signatures, 25 minutes songs, or multi-part songs (i. ii. iii. iv. v.), don't get me wrong I love music like that as well, but at its heart the only thing that makes an album a progressive effort is if there is 1 lyrical theme running throughout. If you argue against this then your saying "Dark Side of the Moon" isn't a progressive album because it doesn't have 20 minute epic songs with weird time signatures (except 'money') and multi-part compositions. so there Edited by acheron - August 02 2006 at 02:25 |
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15783 |
Posted: July 28 2006 at 01:59 | ||
^^
Well number four certainly helps to make a band prog, but not necessary or sufficient.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 20563 |
Posted: July 28 2006 at 01:37 | ||
none of these attributes are a criterium for prog IMO. |
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Minimalist777
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 19 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 293 |
Posted: July 27 2006 at 21:00 | ||
At least in regards to 4. you should check out pretty much every traditional or stoner doom band ever. Pentadram/Bedemon/Death Row, Penance, Trouble, Saint Vitus, Sleep etc.
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WWOSD?
What Would OliverStoned Do? |
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acheron
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 12 2005 Status: Offline Points: 148 |
Posted: July 27 2006 at 14:31 | ||
ive said this several times before, and got ridiculed, but to me Sabbath is prog, or at least proto-prog
1. Sabbath albums almost always carry the same theme throughout 2. sabbath albums always contain one or two instrumental songs 3. several sabbath songs have intro's that paint a vivd, creepy picture (ex. the intro to Black Sabbath, with the thunderstorm and church bells) 4. Sabbath were innovators, nobody sounded like them before or after 5. Iommi was one of the first to blend classical fingerpicking guitar pieces with the heavy music, and he used diminished, spanish, gypsy and middle-eastern scales (because of his influence from Django Reinhardt) Sabbath is at the very least proto-prog |
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coffeeintheface
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 02 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 397 |
Posted: July 26 2006 at 01:03 | ||
Agreed on the "too compositionally simple" part about Black Sabbath. When I say Tool is easy to play, I'm saying in comparison to someone like Dream Theater. Compare playing the middle section of "In the Name of God" to playing the drop-d based riffs of "Schism". But of course Tool's compositions are complex. |
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OBQM: www.soundcloud.com/onebigquestionmark (solo project)
nQuixote: www.soundcloud.com/n-quixote (ambient + various musical ideas) |
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15783 |
Posted: July 25 2006 at 13:46 | ||
^^ I was a little vague with my phrasing there. I was pointing out how they lacked technical ability, and then with that last bit was saying they're too compositionally simple to be prog-metal. Bits of Tool are easy to play, but their compositions are anything but simple. |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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coffeeintheface
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 02 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 397 |
Posted: July 25 2006 at 03:04 | ||
Tool's not exactly the most technical band, and they're very progressive. Tons of Tool songs are easy to play (Schism, for example). I'm not sure "technical" has as much to do with "progressive" as some people think. Edited by coffeeintheface - July 25 2006 at 03:05 |
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OBQM: www.soundcloud.com/onebigquestionmark (solo project)
nQuixote: www.soundcloud.com/n-quixote (ambient + various musical ideas) |
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Abstrakt
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 18 2005 Location: Soundgarden Status: Offline Points: 18292 |
Posted: July 24 2006 at 02:30 | ||
I agree with you.
Also, parts of "Sabotage" is prog related. And "Never Say Die" is to me pure prog rock.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 20563 |
Posted: July 24 2006 at 02:27 | ||
^ did you notice the poll? |
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Asyte2c00
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 15 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2099 |
Posted: July 24 2006 at 01:15 | ||
Sea Shanties-High Tide, perhaps the first prog metal album, released in 1969.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 20563 |
Posted: July 23 2006 at 04:46 | ||
The 70s Classic Metal bands are much more similar to the other Rock bands of that time, than to modern (1980+) Metal bands.
Of course it can be called Metal, but not Prog Metal. You argue on the basis of "They called it Metal back then, so it must be called Metal today", but I doubt that there is even a single newspaper/music magazine article from back then which described SBS as a progressive Metal album. So if nobody did that back then, why "force" it today?
When talking about music you can be more generic or more specific ... but not both at the same time. Prog Metal started in the 80s, with a couple of bands which all shared some common elements - on SBS these elements are not present. By calling that album Prog Metal you simply re-define the genre, and that's something you are telling us not to regarding the genre of "Metal" in general. |
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Philéas
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 14 2006 Status: Offline Points: 6419 |
Posted: July 22 2006 at 20:55 | ||
As far as I'm concerned, Rush was the first Prog Metal band. The fact
that most major Prog Metal bands have been influenced more by Rush than
by Black Sabbath speaks in favor of this. But I don't deny that Black
Sabbath has been influential on Prog in various forms.
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Rocktopus
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 02 2006 Location: Norway Status: Offline Points: 4202 |
Posted: July 22 2006 at 20:21 | ||
I think both Sea Shanties and 2122 are prog metal from different times
than now. Its complex, heavy, metal, plenty of riffs and prog. They
have a natural place in the history of progmetal. One shouldn't listen
to modern prog and try and apply its set of rules too the older albums.
We can't dismiss the harder bands of the 70's as not being metal,
because they don't sound like newer metal.
That's worse than old proggers dismissing your Progmetal as not being prog. The metal term itself is from the 70's. So if young people can't relate to heavy 70's music as metal, because the newer stuff is so much harder, find a new name for this new music instead. Metallica and Slayer changed metal so much it became Thrash Metal and not 70's heavy metal anymore. pop from 60's and 80's is not very alike but both are still pop, from different ages. Its part of the same history. |
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes Find a fly and eat his eye But don't believe in me Don't believe in me Don't believe in me |
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Witchwoodhermit
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 23 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 871 |
Posted: July 22 2006 at 01:42 | ||
Well thats the point. Heavy riffs, dark sounds, but with musical quality. I personally love Pete French's vocals on the "In Hearing Of" album. Vincents keyboard playing and the whole jazz "infected" sound is pure progressive and original.
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Here I'm shadowed by a dragon fig tree's fan
ringed by ants and musing over man. |
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Minimalist777
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 19 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 293 |
Posted: July 22 2006 at 00:01 | ||
yeah I forgot about them, I suppose the thing with them is that they are more like hard rock, influencial on metal but not metal themselves. |
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WWOSD?
What Would OliverStoned Do? |
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Minimalist777
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 19 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 293 |
Posted: July 22 2006 at 00:00 | ||
yeah I forgot about them, I suppose the thing with them is that they are more like hard rock, influencial on metal but not metal themselves. |
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WWOSD?
What Would OliverStoned Do? |
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Witchwoodhermit
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 23 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 871 |
Posted: July 21 2006 at 19:17 | ||
Thank you for mentioning Atomic Rooster. I was beginning to wonder if these kiddies know ANYTHING.
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Here I'm shadowed by a dragon fig tree's fan
ringed by ants and musing over man. |
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erik neuteboom
Prog Reviewer Joined: July 27 2005 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 7659 |
Posted: July 21 2006 at 18:03 | ||
I won't be surprised, it's part of the dark side of that genre ... !
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WaywardSon
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 23 2006 Location: Brazil Status: Offline Points: 2537 |
Posted: July 21 2006 at 18:00 | ||
Wasn´t one of the guys in Atomic Rooster supposed to be a satanist? I think he said this himself.
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