Skill vs. Talent

James Lee wrote: I repect and envy skilled musicians, but if a song grabs me, I don't care whether it was played by grandmaster instrumentalists or a bunch of monkeys who accidentally knocked over instruments. It's analogous to the Cult of Personality (no, not the Living Colour song). Sometimes the person speaking is so impressive you tend to forget that what they're saying doesn't mean much. Or, inversely, sometimes the person is so interesting that it doesn't matter...either way, it applies.

Wise words, James!

Sorry Threefates, I have to agree with Ivan on this one - I BELIEVE Love Beach, Works II, In The Hot Seat and Black Moon were all abominations, and I wouldn't even classify Black Moon as prog.  The sight of Keith in a leather jacket and mullet trying to look like something out of Miami Vice has stuck with me since that Inside ELP DVD came out.  And I believe he did it with malice aforethought.   ELP were just trying to write something that would sell, something MOR - they sold out their true fans and went for the money instead.  At least, thats the way I see it - I have to say I wasn't into ELP when I was growing up in the 80s, and only found out recently that they'd even put out material in the 90s.  How my dream was spoiled.  I dont even equate Black Moon with the ELP I know and love - its a different band playing that album.  It doesn't even sound like Greg.   

Its interesting all that stuff about them not getting on, as that clearly had an affect on their output.  Putting things out because you HAVE to, rather than because you WANT to.  A prime example of where skill can out-box talent - and in ELP's case, this was certainly the case. 

Still, it all beats late Genesis'/all Collins/entirety of Mike & The Mechanics material though...!!

 

threefates wrote: Wrath_of_Ninian wrote: Still, it all beats late Genesis'/all Collins/entirety of Mike & The Mechanics material though...!!

True, but that's not exactly a stunning achievement.

I like bashing Genesis actually, as Ivan knows only too well....!!

Nonetheless, you clearly see no fault in anything ELP have done, and I salute you  - I wish I felt the same way about my favourite band PFM, who went a similar way to ELP in the early 80s and started releasing (what I believe to be ) the most awful rubbish.  This is clearly an argument I have no chance of winning! (although I suppose all musical arguments end the same way...)

For the record though, I was only referring to Black Moon with the innit-for-the-money quip - I know about the losses incurred on the Works tour (which ran into millions, right??? dont know the exact figures).

I always thought many people saw Love Beach as a kind of 'two fingers' to the record company for demanding more material when they were clearly unable to fulfill the task in the wake of their exhaustion. However, ELP must also have been aware also of their diminishing fanbase which eroded en masse in the wake of urchin-rock.  Personally, I like to see Love Beach as an arrogant 'two-fingers' to the fans who didn't show up to the Works Tour leaving them heavily out of pocket.  Thats rock and roll - "shove this down your throats you thankless *******"  or "Have your tuneless, talentless rubbish if thats what you want...."  I, for one, was a mere 5 years of age at the time and take no responsibility for their subsequent change of attitude.  If they did the tour now, I would pay full price for every UK date. 

Finally, before you resume hositilies with Ivan, I think you're right that ELP probably were the "Gods of Prog Rock", although that tag in itself is multi-faceted one, and will certainly attract the scorn of the media-run classes.  But if the UK is top dog for Prog Rock, what is the US top dog at? 

 

Wow, I suppose I am!! 

Sometimes I need to check how much wine I've drunk before I write things on this forum....

I'm going to what has been posted in this forum, Ivan... not whats on the reviews or from the collaborators.. (the collaborators are mostly Genesis fans... so that negates any balance there anyway)

Holy God Threefates, I don't know if you really believe what you say, why can you accept that a band that respects thesmelves and their fans should always try to release good material, you blame the producers, the Record Company, Genesis fans and the collaborators, but you don't blame ELP for Love Beach.

There are 7 Love Beach reviews by collaborators and the average is 1.3 stars (Poor. Only for completionists).

There are 14 reviews by people who are not collaborators and the average is 2 stars (Collectors fans only) with 6 that rated it with 0 stars, it's higher average, but there are 3 lunatics that rated it with 5 stars (50% of the total score), something we all know Love Beach doesn't deserve, specially because those guys say forget about side A. How can an album with only one side "good" deserve 5 stars?

Read Gibraltar, Progressor, Progressive Ears or any progressive rock web page and see what's the opinion about Love Beach, probably you'll come back here because in those places the opinion is even worst.

So don't blame the collaborators, most of the progressive rock community qualifies Love Beach as one of the worst albums ever.

How many threads on america bashing

Please Threefates, using Patriotism as a way to gain support is something I expect from politicians not from an intelligent prog' fan like you.

By the way, never saw a post against USA. saw some (which I didn't wrote) about their Government and that's not the same.

Wrath_of_Ninian wrote:

Still, it all beats late Genesis'/all Collins/entirety of Mike & The Mechanics material though...!!

I agree,  I'm a Genesis fan but I said exactly the same thingv in my review about Love Beach on May 2004. Being better than that infamous list means the same as being better than Grease Soundtrack or N'Sync.

Thanks heaven we're not rating Re-Works

To make a summary of my position, I have nothing against ELP, I love their first 5 albums  specially Trilogy and BSS which I rated with 5 stars because I honestly believe they deserve that rating.

I like parts of Works I, I believe Works II was disappointing, but I'm not deaf, Love Beach was a bad album, In the Hot Seat was worst (except for the version of Pictures at an Exhibition included in my album as bonus), Black Moon was a good album for a B class band not for ELP.

Iván

Edited by ivan_2068

I love ELP dearly and want to interject my 2 cents.

For this fan of ELP, Black Moon was a prayer
answered. I was somewhat disappointed by Works
2 and was shocked by 70% of Love Beach. I must
express my love for "Memoirs" because I like the
idea of an epic song that deals with such a simple
concept as love between a man and a woman,
rather then something more "cosmic". "Turn Of the
Century" by Yes had a similar vibe. "Memoirs" is a
beautiful composition, despite the occasional dodgy
lyric.

Black Moon was ELP for me because there they all
were, working together on something new and
exciting. I felt I could hear it in their playing, even if
alot of the music originated from Keith's as then
unreleased solo album (Romeo and Juliet and
Closer to Home) and one of the better tracks was
written by Marc Macina. I'm even not that keen on
"Affair's Of The Heart" though I think "Footprints In
The Snow" is a more effective, simpler song.

Black Moon is not a perfect ELP album but at a time
when there didn't seem to be alot of Prog around, it
was a thrill to me to hear these guys play together
again, to hear that classic Hammond and synth
sound again, and hear these guys sound like they
were really enjoying the process again.   It was a
downpayment on hopefully better things to come that
sadly never materialized.

Pierre

is it the lack of a lead guitarist that causes you
problems, emersons soloing as opposed to
symphonic underpinnings? greg lakes voice or
lyrical content? or carl palmers rapid fire drumming
to rythmic changes? bombast as opposed to
atmospheric changes? who did it first as opposed to
who copied it later with better studio/digital
equipment? the whole thing sucks Marillion is better
or Henry Cow rocks?

what is it that you dont like, and what is it you like?

Edited by DallasBryan

me myself and I
BEBE

Edited by DallasBryan

threefates wrote: Oh Bebe... as a girl, I'm surprised at you... you've missed the point completely.  I have these conversations with Ivan (and usually Cert) because I just love talking about ELP... I don't care if they feel the same way about them... heck I don't care if you feel the same way... but it makes me happy to talk about them... so i keep doing it. Well, that's ok of course. But you don't seem to accept facts and dont seem to be willing to go back even a single step. It is good that you really love them, but discussions get useless if you're only goal is to counter the other people's arguments and aren't trying to think about them. I will defend them to the death... and the fact that you can't see why I think they're the best band really doesn't matter( i said i DO understand why some people really love them)... it should be enough that you know I do...    I've never bashed you for your opinion... just tried to point out that some of the comments you've made seemed questionable... whether language barrier or not.  and u came close to bashing other's opinion quite often, you're not saying comments are questionable but you're saying they're wrong. And as far as no one else fighting so hard for their band... well thats not quite true either... Reed does a really good job for Rush,  Ivan and quite a few here do for Genesis... and Fragile does a good job for Yes... but I do better for ELP..cause I'm a girl.. and cause I've had an actual relationship with one of them.... But the others actually do criticize their bands too, and don't say everything about them is perfect, I've never heard Ivan saying Invisible Touch isn't a bad album ... But overall, take it easy, I don't want any fights, lol, but I think you're a bit exaggerating.