Why Ange stands high above France's Prog scene

rockandrail wrote: You want my French 2 cents? What I'll write was confirmed by several friends an parents of mine, including my brother in law, who are professional musicians in France.   What you noticed about Ange is valid for all other "rock" genres, whether prog or not, whether vintage or not: you will find less offer in France when  you compare with other European countries.  Well if Ange sold more, it is a bit because they were more easily accessible (sung in French, intelligible lyrics, the odd cover >> Brel's Ces Gens-Là etc...) Clearly Genesis appeal more to the masses compare to Crimson, because their symphonic leanings are built more on harmonies and melodies, than GG and KC polyrythms or power chords).   Why? Very simple: the French do not like music.  >> by this you most likely mean, the music behind the vocals. I am not sure that I agree with you. Instrumental music is generally not much appreciated in popular cultures around the world, as opposed to sung songs. But I don't think that the Bal Musette (France's traditional popular rural music) is any less appreciated with the long accordion solos etc...   There were plenty of jazz musicians who found their way to France mostly because the public actually listened to the music. France had their fair share of jazz instrumentalists as well.   They accept it when it is used to accompany a story told in the form of a song. But it HAS to tell a story. this is also why people claim for french singing artist. They will not appreciate the song for its musical content, only for the words. As a result  "chanson" (a sung poetry) is popular. The Chanson Française is of course a handicap in terms of rock music'sw exposure to the youth. But this was hardly new. The Chanson Française had its origins in Music Hall traditions (from Maurice Chevalier, Edith Piaf to Yves Montand to Jacques Brel) where the performer was alone on stage (with the band in the pit) and was the only/sole attraction. In this regard Ange's appeal was close to that since descamp's theatrics (much like Gabriel's costumes) were designed to attract   most of the attention. Descamp's lasting success stands from an extraordinary stage presence.   You will come to the same conclusion regarding classical music: France has produced far less famous classical composers than Germany or Italy. Well, the French masters were absent in the real classical peak (from Bach to Bethoven etc...), because the cultural shift from Versailles/Paris to Vienna had occured (remember that France had strong polical turmoils  and music was then a bit less a worry) but were present before (Marin Marais and other baroques) and later ... in the impressionist movement (from Ravel, Debussy, St Saens, Berlioz, etc...) in the XIXth. At the turn of the XXth Century two countries dominated classical music: France and Russia   That's just the way it is.

I've registered your peaceoffering PGC, and I'm gonna try and behave closer to what's considered mature. I'm in a bit of a hurry (going on a trip), and don't have the time to give you a proper reply. I won't be logging in here for a week or two either.

Most of these should please a Quebec-scene fan:

Dün: Eros (Jazz/Zeuhl/Rio. Probably the easiest non-Magma zeuhl related to get into)
Eskaton: 4 Visions (Zeuhl classic, complex, but kind of catchy.)
Shylock: Il De Fievre (Dark, melodic symphonic instr.)
Flamen Dialis: Symphonie Dei (see Shylock)
Clivage: Regina Astris (Easterninspired jazz/fusion)
Lard Free .I'm Around Midnight (Krauty/electronic, jazzrock)

Rocktopus wrote: Got my senior-progcitizen title at my 100th post, and I'm damned proud of it.

That was irony of course, since you so bowed to my (un)important title.

I still think your opening post theory, and this statement:

...Ange (IMO)as I've stated in this site previously, are equal to Genesis or Gentle Giant amonst albums in my collection. But after them the offerings quickly become competent, but not exactly earth shattering....

...was so wrong and uninformed that it did not inspire me to take it seriously.
 
We'll both be better off not talking to eachother. Me being on my high horse and all.
If you'll stop writing about what you think of me as a person, I'll stay away from this thread.

(Told you Avestin was kind, didn't I?)

Rocktopus wrote: pantacruelgruel wrote: Rocktopus wrote: You have absolutely no idea on what you're talking about: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=21284 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=29193 http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33648 You're completely right, of course. I am but a wiggly worm, sir, a wiggly worm ... All the bands mentioned in the above posts are all & always included amongst the Masters of Prog, you know Genesis, Gentle Giant, King Crimson, PFM, Le Orme, Pink Floyd, Kraftwerk, Jethro Tull, Strawbs. Now, if I reconsider my initial proposition, I wonder if you read it correctly.  To simplify things for you, here is an example - the UK has Genesis, Gentle Giant, King Crimson, Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd, Yes, all that are generally considered as being Prog Gods, i.e. top tier progressive rock acts. Italy has PFM, Le Orme, Banco (to a point), and this site even has decreed Italian symphonic prog as a "sub-genre". France, on the other hand, for all of its cultural heft, has produced Ange, & yes, Magma. But the quality or standing if you will, drops precipitously after these two. Atoll is a good group, but they are second tier. Arachnoid were interesting, but their "oeuvre" is not extensive. There are many talented french groups which you have mentioned, but in my readings within this site, most times they are mentioned or referred to only in context of other french groups. The scandinavian countries have an interesting prog scene, but outside of 2 or 3 groups, none have set the prog world on fire (I am a big fan of Anglagard). So to terminate this interminable treatise on what I mean by "top tier", I would like to add one last thing. I sometimes find that the responses in some threads gives the impression that the "responders" have not exactly read the question or proposition, & use it as a flimsy reason to go off on their own tangent or "pet" peeve. I bow to your (un)important title, which as i contribute more to this site, seems to mean one has written more than others. So, if you can argue that Carpe Diem are the equal of Gentle Giant, or Clearlight clearly surpass Pink FLoyd, or even that Pulsar deserve more adulation than PFM, then please make your case. And before you diss a fellow contributor (I supposedly have no idea what I am talking about), allow your brain cells time to actually understand the question. p.s. to quote our national hero Acadieman - La dignite ne se trouve pas dans la possession d'honneur, mais dans la conscience qu'on le deserve (Aristotle - sort of) I haven't heard Carpe Diem, don't like Pulsar or Atoll, and of course the british bands have an advantige of simply being from britain. Can't see kraut or italian symphonic being any more important subgenre than in the 70's, the 100% french genre,  Zeuhl. And isn't it obvious that if Gentle Giant were french they would be just as good, but more marginal? Nobody would care about The Strawbs if they were anything but british. This has nothing to do with standing high above anything. I love most of the bands you mention, but I know hundreds of french prog-albums better than anything Strawbs ever released. (I've got nothing against Strawbs either. Just a little boring sometimes, that's all)   Except for the great Magma, Ange, Clearlight and Archanoid you might not know about; The french Gods and the greats: Archaiä/Art Zoyd/Lard Free/Heldon/Vortex/Eider Stellaire/Eskaton/Igor Wakhevitch/Moving Gelatine Plates//Shylock/Dün/Flamen Dialis/Horde/Cheval Fou/Etron Fou Leboublan/ Horrific Child/Artcane/Clivage/Ma Banlieue Flasque/Mosaic/Laurent Thibault/Komintern/Maajun/Jean Cohen Solal/Horde/Jean-Claude Vannier/Patrick Vian/Weidorje/Michel Magne/Spacecraft/Triode/Laurence Vanay(Jacqueline Thibault)/Jean Louise Bucchi/ Kha -Ym/Roland Bocquet/Catherine Ribeiro + Annes, Brigitte Fontaine/Rahmann/Manu Lannuel/Potemkine/Chico Magnetic Band/Pataphonie/Fille Qui Mousse/Visitors/Ame Son/Zao/Alain Markusfeld/Hellebore/Shub Niggurath/Catharsis.. mm. Check some of these out first, if you're not only talking about popularity and sales figures. I'm not misunderstanding anything. I and several others here, know a lot more about the fantastic french progressive scene than you do.  Ask some of  the kind and knowledgable people working on this site.  Avestin or Black Velvet. They'll probably guide you. Got my senior-progcitizen title at my 100th post, and I'm damned proud of it. To simplify things for you: Hey! Sometimes people (=you) just don't have a clue. And thats ok.

I give up Rocktopussy, unlike Avestin who tried to guide me in exploring the French prog scene, while clearly stating that he offered no opinion as to who "was" or "is" the best, you on the other hand seem determined to argue that other groups are as good or better than Ange. My original point was simply that among France's prog groups, Ange (& Magma) tend to be the ones that are most used in comparing other musical acts from that country. I am almost certain, that at no point, did I say, state, infer or even insinuate that there were NO other talented groups to come out of France. I just wondered why coverage of these  other groups'  "oeuvres" did not compare to other national scenes such as the UK or Italy. So thank you Avestin, I am in the process of reading your suggestions. As far as knowing more about the scene than I do Roctowussy,  well , I guess that's something I'll have to work on & hopefully measure up to your standards in this globally important area of knowledge. To finish 2 or more points that I would like to toss your way - the number of postings does not equate to knowledge or quality, or even intelligence. To paraphrase an old adage, if people aren't sure you're an idiot why open up your mouth & remove all doubt. God only knows I've got some people who aren't quite sure on my part sometimes. I've seen intelligent posts & polls on this site, & not all were made by high ranking members. Indeed, some high ranking posters ( in terms of titles, not actual knowledge)seem to have no other purpose than to bludgeon anyone who comes close to showing any disagreement with their world view, no matter what the original question was. You want to discuss, debate, fine;  to demean, dismiss, then find something  better to do with your time (search for humility, it seems you may have much to be humble about if you are that damn proud of having 100 posts to this site; try giving out 100 hugs to people you love, 100 thank you letters to people who've helped you or served you well in your life , $100 that you could've spent on discretionary or luxury items & instead given to charity, or more relevant to this site 100 kind "suggestions" as to what the French prog scene "newbie" might be interested in searching for).
And lastly, if having a clue (supposedly=you) is your measure of standing , then I'd rather be the snot I'm currently blowing out my nose due to my cold. Have fun with yourself, & when you want to have a discussion or a laugh, I'll meet you halfway if you come off your meds or your high horse. Anyway, Rocktoofussy, I'm more than a few posts away from that magical meaningless count of 100, but I'm heading out for a walk in the woods with family, friends, & my dogs. On the way, I'll be listening to Le Match's album Legendes, and thinking how wonderful it is to have stumbled on this nice piece of music & looking forward to writing the first album review on it, instead of planning how I will be able to inflict & humiliate some poor soul with this knowledge because of their ignorance of this Quebec prog obscurity's existence.

Being ignorant is not a sin, believing all others are, is.
Or to quote Winnie Churchill, "I am always willing to to learn, but  I have an aversion to being taught".
Oh ... Sun's Out, uh huh Looks O.K. ; World survives into another day & I'm Thinking about eternity, some kind of ecstasy's got a hold on me
And I'm wondering where the Lions are ....
As C Decamps quoted another chansonnier " ces gens-la ............



Edited by pantacruelgruel - February 04 2007 at 12:49

oh yeah... is there any  Genesis connection in the French theatrical vein?... Ange's first which has that and more came in in 72 when Genesis was still a 2nd or 3rd division prog band  outside of bars in England, and of course Italy  .  Looked through Ange's liner notes and didn't see one reference to Genesis. Ange if I recall correctly had been around since the late 60's

Edited by micky - February 04 2007 at 07:33

micky wrote: Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: According to many sites there's a sub-genre called French Theatric Symphonic, with high influence of Genesis but with a clear French personality, bands like Ange, Atoll and Mona Lisa represent this style and all are in the same level.   Iván   great idea since RPI was such a big hit

Rocktopus wrote: Cheesecakemouse wrote: Anyway Rocktopus I think Gentle Giant are second tier, alright but certainly not prog gods. I think a lot of the British Symphonic groups get too much attention on this sight and, at times, some are a little overrated. Doesn't really matter what you personally think of GG, but aren't you basically writing what I just did, using other words?

what about fusion in France? I thought there were a lot of good french fusion bands.Gong was born in france although led by an Aussie.

Edited by Cheesecakemouse - February 03 2007 at 19:14

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: According to many sites there's a sub-genre called French Theatric Symphonic, with high influence of Genesis but with a clear French personality, bands like Ange, Atoll and Mona Lisa represent this style and all are in the same level.   Iván

great idea since RPI was such a big hit

Sorry, I just felt talked down to by someone who seemingly wasn't having its' best day ...or maybe he just needs a Camaro ...
P.S. I see BJH on your lastfm list type thing. Are they really a poor man's Moody Blues for lack of a better comparison ? I've not been able to get into them when listening to the samples & mp3s available.