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Raff 
Special Collaborator
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Joined: July 29 2005
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Points: 24392
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 Topic: Illegal Downloading
Posted: February 13 2007 at 06:11 |
 Glueman wrote:
Rocktopus wrote:
Glueman: can honestly say that if I hadn't been so fortunate, job wise, that I still would not have done it - purely on moral grounds. This is very naive. Let's say you didn't live in UK, but in some of the poorer eastern european countries instead. You write that you know you've been lucky. Well, you (and I) are lucky with what countries we're born into, as well. Morals are easier when you can afford it. You're judging everyone less fortunate than you, and calling them bloody thiefs.
There is NO excuse to download on the basis that the album is out of print. You can absolutely guarantee that at some time in the future it will be. It may take some years but there will be a release. If the album is out of print, and and say 50 to 1000 copies exist (its like this with 1000's of gems), I think its just fantastic if some blogger puts out a vinylrip. This is the first step towards a possible re-release. If you bought an overprized rarity like that second hand, the artist wouldn't benefit from the sale anyway. But I'm defenatly not interested in discussing this here. Everything is all black or white for too many of you.
Easy Livin': It is theft in the same way as walking into a record shop and stealing a CD you think is overpriced is theft. Stealing a physical object for sale, is obviously different.
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Oh how very understanding you are! A thief is a thief is a thief. Circumstances do NOT or will NEVER excuse a crime. That's like saying it's ok to steal because you were born in a slum in a third world country. Well it's NOT. And besides we are talking about what is essentially a luxury. No-one needs to buy music - it's not a life or death need, like food, if you cannot afford it, like all other things, you should do without until such time as you are able to.
And stealing online it is just the same as physically puloining something. You do not take ownership until money has been exchanged.
And you might as well lose that logo about home taping - you are a hypocrite. It's not home taping that harms music and musicians - it's illegal downloading.
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I'm afraid this thread is going to turn ugly very soon, as I can see words such "thief" and "hypocrite" bandied about a bit too easily. I can understand the reasons of both parties, but there is no excuse for exchanging hard words such as those. Therefore, I think the best idea is to close the thread at least for the time being.
Edited by Ghost Rider - February 13 2007 at 06:12
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eugene
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 30 2005
Location: Ukraine
Status: Offline
Points: 2703
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Posted: February 13 2007 at 06:00 |
laplace wrote:
option #6. teh innanet is the world's greatest promotional tool |
I agree
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carefulwiththataxe
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CrazyDiamond
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2005
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 466
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Posted: February 13 2007 at 06:00 |
^ Rocktopus 
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Rocktopus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 4202
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Posted: February 13 2007 at 05:58 |
Glueman wrote:
Rocktopus wrote:
Glueman: can honestly say that if I hadn't been so fortunate, job wise, that I still would not have done it - purely on moral grounds. This is very naive. Let's say you didn't live in UK, but in some of the poorer eastern european countries instead. You write that you know you've been lucky. Well, you (and I) are lucky with what countries we're born into, as well. Morals are easier when you can afford it. You're judging everyone less fortunate than you, and calling them bloody thiefs.
There is NO excuse to download on the basis that the album is out of print. You can absolutely guarantee that at some time in the future it will be. It may take some years but there will be a release. If the album is out of print, and and say 50 to 1000 copies exist (its like this with 1000's of gems), I think its just fantastic if some blogger puts out a vinylrip. This is the first step towards a possible re-release. If you bought an overprized rarity like that second hand, the artist wouldn't benefit from the sale anyway. But I'm defenatly not interested in discussing this here. Everything is all black or white for too many of you.
Easy Livin': It is theft in the same way as walking into a record shop and stealing a CD you think is overpriced is theft. Stealing a physical object for sale, is obviously different.
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Oh how very understanding you are! A thief is a thief is a thief. Circumstances do NOT or will NEVER excuse a crime. That's like saying it's ok to steal because you were born in a slum in a third world country. Well it's NOT. And besides we are talking about what is essentially a luxury. No-one needs to buy music - if you cannot afford it, like all other things, you can do without until such time as you are able to.
And it is just the same stealing online as it is physically puloining something.
And you might as well lose that logo about home taping - you are a hypocrite.
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Nice. Like I said, everything's all black or white for some of you, no shades of grey. That makes disscussion impossible. Buying music is a luxury alright, and you deserve it because you've been lucky!?
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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CrazyDiamond
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2005
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 466
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Posted: February 13 2007 at 05:57 |
ehm..where is the option "illegal download is always acceptable" ?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This^^^^^^^^^^^^ ( look up ) is a joke ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I think it's great as long as it doesn't become a business (if it isn't a gain of money).
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Uroboros
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 25 2006
Location: Oxford
Status: Offline
Points: 912
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Posted: February 13 2007 at 05:54 |
Thank you for an intelligent post , Rocktopus. I was about to give an answer based on the same arguments, but I'm glad I don't have to.
I will refrain from saying anything than stating a mere fact: in Romania a cd costs about 1/7 of the average monthly income of an adult person, meaning that someone could afford to buy seven cd's every month and then starve to death while listening to them. Furthermore, 99.9% of the albums listed on PA are not available in Romanian stores, and Amazon doesn't make deliveries there (or at least it didn't about three years ago, maybe they do it now). Draw your own conclusions.
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Tous les chemins
qui s’ouvrent à moi
ne mènent à rien si tu n’es plus là
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laplace
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 06 2005
Location: popupControl();
Status: Offline
Points: 7606
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Posted: February 13 2007 at 05:51 |
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well put, Rocktopus, there's a difference between stealing something from someone else and merely making a copy. of course I can see why it's illegal but laws turn into guidelines when you think about them enough ;P
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Guests
Forum Guest Group
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Posted: February 13 2007 at 05:50 |
Rocktopus wrote:
Glueman: can honestly say that if I hadn't been so fortunate, job wise, that I still would not have done it - purely on moral grounds. This is very naive. Let's say you didn't live in UK, but in some of the poorer eastern european countries instead. You write that you know you've been lucky. Well, you (and I) are lucky with what countries we're born into, as well. Morals are easier when you can afford it. You're judging everyone less fortunate than you, and calling them bloody thiefs.
There is NO excuse to download on the basis that the album is out of print. You can absolutely guarantee that at some time in the future it will be. It may take some years but there will be a release. If the album is out of print, and and say 50 to 1000 copies exist (its like this with 1000's of gems), I think its just fantastic if some blogger puts out a vinylrip. This is the first step towards a possible re-release. If you bought an overprized rarity like that second hand, the artist wouldn't benefit from the sale anyway. But I'm defenatly not interested in discussing this here. Everything is all black or white for too many of you.
Easy Livin': It is theft in the same way as walking into a record shop and stealing a CD you think is overpriced is theft. Stealing a physical object for sale, is obviously different.
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Oh how very understanding you are! A thief is a thief is a thief. Circumstances do NOT or will NEVER excuse a crime. That's like saying it's ok to steal because you were born in a slum in a third world country. Well it's NOT. And besides we are talking about what is essentially a luxury. No-one needs to buy music - it's not a life or death need, like food, if you cannot afford it, like all other things, you should do without until such time as you are able to.
And stealing online it is just the same as physically puloining something. You do not take ownership until money has been exchanged.
And you might as well lose that logo about home taping - you are a hypocrite. It's not home taping that harms music and musicians - it's illegal downloading.
Edited by Glueman - February 13 2007 at 05:57
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Guests
Forum Guest Group
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Posted: February 13 2007 at 05:42 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Glueman wrote:
As for doing it because "it's free". Well you're a bloody thief and I'd like to see all people who steal in this way prosecuted! |
I think the choice in this poll was "if it's free", not "because it's free". Of course I'm all for free downloads - but it must be the artists and their record labels who decide whether something can be downloaded for free or not.
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If you read the title - you will find it says "Illegal downloads" and then the question "would you consider it acceptable if ?" and the option being "it's free". Thats pretty unambiguous. That option did not encompass legal downloads from bands sites! Quite clear!
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Rocktopus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 4202
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Posted: February 13 2007 at 05:40 |
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^ Yawn... it changes something. Just like home taping is not the same as going into a shop and simply take an album from the shelf.
BTW: I voted for the first option.
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
|
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 20608
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Posted: February 13 2007 at 05:32 |
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^ there is no difference between physical objects and digital downloads - stealing the objects is the same as downloading (or acquiring the files by other means) without paying. The fact that when downloading something you're not actually taking away something changes nothing.
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Rocktopus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 4202
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Posted: February 13 2007 at 05:24 |
Glueman: can honestly say that if I hadn't been so fortunate, job wise, that I
still would not have done it - purely on moral grounds. This
is very naive. Let's say you didn't live in UK, but in some of the
poorer eastern european countries instead. You write that you know
you've been lucky. Well, you (and I) are lucky with what countries
we're born into, as well. Morals are easier when you can afford it.
You're judging everyone less fortunate than you, and calling them
bloody thiefs.
There is NO excuse to download on the basis that the album is out
of print. You can absolutely guarantee that at some time in the future
it will be. It may take some years but there will be a release.
If the album is out of print, and and say 50 to 1000 copies exist (its like this with 1000's of gems), I
think its just fantastic if some blogger
puts out a vinylrip. This is the first step towards a possible
re-release. If you bought an overprized rarity like that second hand,
the artist wouldn't benefit from the sale anyway. But I'm defenatly not interested in discussing this here. Everything is all black or white for too many of you.
Easy Livin': It is theft in the same way as walking into a record shop and stealing a CD you think is overpriced is theft. Stealing a physical object for sale, is obviously different.
|
|
Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
|
|
N Ellingworth
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 17 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1324
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Posted: February 13 2007 at 04:57 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
Glueman wrote:
As for doing it because "it's free". Well you're a bloody thief and I'd like to see all people who steal in this way prosecuted! |
I think the choice in this poll was "if it's free", not "because it's free". Of course I'm all for free downloads - but it must be the artists and their record labels who decide whether something can be downloaded for free or not.
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Agreed things like The Egyptian Kings debut and the extra track PT released from the Warszawa session. Are great for fans and act as a very good promotional tool. But the choice has to lie with the band and their label.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 20608
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Posted: February 13 2007 at 04:49 |
Glueman wrote:
As for doing it because "it's free". Well you're a bloody thief and I'd like to see all people who steal in this way prosecuted! |
I think the choice in this poll was "if it's free", not "because it's free". Of course I'm all for free downloads - but it must be the artists and their record labels who decide whether something can be downloaded for free or not.
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laplace
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 06 2005
Location: popupControl();
Status: Offline
Points: 7606
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Posted: February 13 2007 at 04:23 |
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option #6. teh innanet is the world's greatest promotional tool
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Mandrakeroot
Forum Senior Member
Italian Prog Specialist
Joined: March 01 2006
Location: San Foca, Friûl
Status: Offline
Points: 5851
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Posted: February 13 2007 at 04:18 |
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FOR ME IT'S NEVER acceptable.
The reasons are those that they say all those who work in the music World and do not accept this modus operandi.
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Guests
Forum Guest Group
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Posted: February 13 2007 at 04:04 |
Thinking you are entitled to "free" music is somewhat similar to all those t**ts who thought festivals should be free in the 70's. Those same people that ruined the Isle Of Wight fetival!
Musicians have to make a living too. And if they don't..............what will we listen to?
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: February 21 2004
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 15585
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Posted: February 13 2007 at 02:56 |
I'll let the thread run meanwhile, as long as there is no discussion about illegal download sites.
Please bear in mind though that illegal downloading is just that, illegal. It is theft in the same way as walking into a record shop and stealing a CD you think is overpriced is theft.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 20608
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Posted: February 13 2007 at 02:20 |
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I used to do that a couple of years ago - but not anymore. I think it's not acceptable - and seeing people talk about albums that will be released in a couple of months really makes me angry.
Time to come clean, guys! Try waiting until something is released although you have the means to listen to weeks earlier ... you *will* feel better once you quit stealing.
Edited by MikeEnRegalia - February 13 2007 at 02:22
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N Ellingworth
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 17 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1324
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Posted: February 13 2007 at 02:14 |
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Illegal downloading is never acceptable. If you want an album that's out of print look for a secondhand copy, if you're on a limited budget look at amazon you can often get albums for under £5 on there.
As an aside I've only downloaded 3 albums all of which were completely legal and having to back them up on CD and print off a cover was a lot of hassle.
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Illegal Downloading
