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Posted: February 27 2007 at 13:35

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

[ I personally don't care where Bolivia is (although I know) and I think a rudimentary knowledge of anatomy is far more important than knowing where Bolivia is. Hands on experience with an important scientific foundation vs. knowing where to put an inconsequential country with an GDP of 8 billion on a map. I think the dissection wins.

That remark about Bolivia was unnecessarily offensive. If this is what some Americans think about other parts of the world, then don't be surprised if people from other places aren't that keen on you. If someone from Bolivia chanced to read that, they would have all the right in the world to complain. Ivan clearly used Bolivia as an example of a country people know little about (and not only in the US, I hasten to add... Ignorance is rife even in many European countries). However, putting down a country just because it has a small GDP is something to be avoided, especially in a public forum of international bent as this one.

Figglesnout View Drop Down

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Posted: February 27 2007 at 16:13

soon in my anatomy class we have to dissect pig or we fail...

I'm not sure how i feel about that.

But I mean...I'll have to do it, or fail the course. It sucks. I know I'm not going to be a vet...I'm just interested in HUMAN Anatomy...which is what teh course is labled (further making me wonder why we have to dissect a pig...)

I'm a reasonable man, get off my case

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Posted: February 27 2007 at 21:22

bhikkhu wrote:

rileydog22 wrote:

bhikkhu wrote:

In Medical schools they don't kill people for research. They use the cadavers of people who have already died. Why can't they do the same with animals?

Because they are killed before they have died naturally and used for food.

That's a whole other issue.

I'm not intending that as an anti-carnivirous comment (I eat more meat than most people). I was just answering your question. There's more money in killing a pig for feed than just letting it die and selling it for dissection, and that's not even including paying to support (food, water, shelter, etc.) the pig until it has died naturally.

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Posted: February 27 2007 at 21:29

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

There's is a purpose though. THey're a valuable learning tool, and I know that you know the importance of education having taken such extensive schooling yourself.

Only less than 1 per 1000 of the total number of High School USA students will evergraduate as Vets every year, they will have the chanve to dissect animals when they are in the universirty, why in hell does Lawyers, Doctors (That aren't going to be surgeons), engeneers, Computer experts, car mnechanics, white collar employees, etc need to know how a Frog lloks inside?

Accept it, even the vets won't learn a thing from the butchery they made in school because no teacher has the capacity to reach them surgical texchniques, they will have to learn everything in the university.

Yes I trust the second best intelligence agency in the world. The whole world was fooled on the WMDs. That doesn't rule CIA statistical data wrong.

Well, I don't blame the CIA

December 18, 2006

Powell Again Blames CIA For Fabrications And Lies-By-Omission In U.N. Speech

As much criticism as Colin Powell has received for his Iraq presentation at the UN, it hasn't been anywhere near what he deserves. While they've been little noticed, declassified memos from Powell's own intelligence staff at the State Department conclusively prove Powell was aware much of what he said was false or shaky. (I've previously gone through this in detail here.)

So far Powell has blamed everything on the CIA. He did it again yesterday when questioned outside Face the Nation by Sam Husseini of the Institute for Public Accuracy. Here are the details, along with background and the actual video.

http://www.tinyrevolution.com/mt/archives/001238.html

Collin Powell and I believe President Bush blamed them.

Again, that doesn't prove all their statistical data wrong. Also, I could care less what Collin Powell has to say. I really doubt the man's credentials.

In the meanwhile, North Korea is using real WMD in the border and nobody noticed until it is too late.

I don't doubt CIA has valuable data, but they give the USA citizen what they want to hear, "Americans are the best in every field", something that is not truth in many areas, Japan is wealthier and more advanced technologically for example, the Euro has more value than the dollar, Europe Education system is better.

That's something most agencies won't publicly accept. And that's a mistake USA has the resources to change this situation and grow in every aspect, but as long as officially you don't accept the reality, things won't change.

SO the CIA distorts data to make the literacy rate appear higher, because it will make people feel better about their country, rather than taking the simple steps to combat it which will also make people feel better about their country? I don't buy into conspiracy theories like this.

Still not a reason the average Joe should know where it is over anatomy in my opinion.

I believe reading is more important, all the sources are reliable and from government agencies, not invented, the numbers provided by each and every one are consistent..

Anatomy for school students can be learned in books, you won't use corpses with eight graders because it's useless and will create more traumas than benefits, I believe the case is exact in animals.

It can be, but tell the average student to study a diagram and watch him not do it. Give him a frog to dissect and I garuntee he does it and takes something away. Hands one xperiance beats hand outs or books. We're not using coarpses, we're using frogs. Not much trauma associated with seeing a dead frog/worm/starfish.

Only one of those sources speaks of the actually literacy rate. I'm not doubting your numbers on the poor english abilities of people. But I trust the CIA over some special interest group. Again, the only number I doubted was the actual literacy rate. And the Bolivia numbers.

The numbers of illiteracy are not only provided by reliable offices and the UN wiith no interest, but also by the Colleges who are the ones in charge of providing remediation, so they know the numbers exactly.

You can check in Google hundreeds of sources (Including UN) and all are consistent, even the major universities have referred to this problem and I dont believe they have political interests (Hey, they charge the student parents for the remedies and that's more bucks for them).

How in hell can a student with reading under the average reach College???? Believe me, this is a mad issue.

Strength in the sciences can easily carry you. If you can compute triple integrals, but don't know what jejun means, you'll get by fine.

Also, again these two subjects are seperate so there's room for improvement in english with the dissection. They won't impede on each other territory on a education possibilities curve.

Of course not, but which one is necessary and which one not?

How many USA citizens will need to read?.............100%

How many students will need to know how to dissect?....Less than 1 per 1,000, and they won't learn anyting in school, all the valuable information will be providedin the university.

So no knowledge should be taught if it will be expounded upon in college? Also, what about those not going into college?

:) Damn that soup haha. Yes soap.

I guessed so LOL.

I agree, I was just saying that if frogs get rights when not hurting humans, why not give germs the same rights. The arguement was purposefully ridiculous.

I'm not talking about frog rights specifically, I'm talking about the useless massacre of animals for no valid purpose except a curriculum that has to be changed, it's clear that USA education system is collapsong when only 3 out of 10 students have enough reading and writting skills foior their age, something is going wrong.

Not only dissection, think how many students will ever need advanced mathematics or chemnistry? This should be elective only for those students really interested, wouldn't it be better to teach Spanish that is the fastest growing language in USA?

Absolutely not. You seem to have a bias towards language skills. Not to get into another issue, but Spanish is not something any American needs to know. Learning another language is a luxury, knowing mathematics and other sciences are a necessity.

I appologize Ivan, I missed that in your last post, but I did read it. I tend to skim closing as theyre usually just wrap ups or unrelated to posts, I guessed I missed it in skimming.

Don't worry but please don't believe I'm anti-USA, by the contrary, read my posts on other threads, I believe the whole world has it's priorities upside down.

Iván

Fight the good fight then sir

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: February 27 2007 at 21:32

Ghost Rider wrote:

I'm not insulting Bolivia or any of the good people I'm sure the country is full of. I'm just saying that in the grand scheme of international politics, Bolivia plays a very minor role and knowing where it's located is not necessarily of the utmost importance. I don't insult any countries, besides France Wink

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

bhikkhu

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Posted: February 27 2007 at 22:16

king volta wrote:

soon in my anatomy class we have to dissect pig or we fail...

I'm not sure how i feel about that.

But I mean...I'll have to do it, or fail the course. It sucks. I know I'm not going to be a vet...I'm just interested in HUMAN Anatomy...which is what teh course is labled (further making me wonder why we have to dissect a pig...)

I'm sure if you presented a mature, well thought out case, they would have to abide by your feelings. I couldn't do it because of my Buddhist beliefs, but I don't think you should need such an affiliation to back it up. If you honestly believe it is wrong, you shouldn't have to do it.

a.k.a. H.T.

http://riekels.wordpress.com

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: February 27 2007 at 22:19

You can't learn a complex system like the human body without understanding a lower, more simplistic system.

I do want to say that kids shouldn't be forced to dissect animals. My school offered an alternative, an interactive program for dissection. I fully support this, but I don't think dissection should be outlawed in anyway.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

heyitsthatguy View Drop Down

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Posted: February 27 2007 at 22:22

because people are pigs Tongue

seriously though if it conflicts with your beliefs then there's no way that they can force you to do it or fail

Figglesnout View Drop Down

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Posted: February 27 2007 at 22:25

heyitsthatguy wrote:

because people are pigs Tongue

seriously though if it conflicts with your beliefs then there's no way that they can force you to do it or fail

you'd think...i learned today and objected.

but my anatomy teacher said it's part of the ciriculum (?) and must be done to pass.

quite stupid...and i'm not sure if it's legal. but whatever.

i mean the pig's there and there's nothing i can do about it. perhaps i'll learn something

I'm a reasonable man, get off my case

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: February 28 2007 at 00:17

king volta wrote:

you'd think...i learned today and objected.

but my anatomy teacher said it's part of the ciriculum (?) and must be done to pass.

quite stupid...and i'm not sure if it's legal. but whatever.

i mean the pig's there and there's nothing i can do about it. perhaps i'll learn something

YES YOU CAN, CLAIM TO BE A CONSCIENTIOUS OBJECTOR, it's proyected by law:

What legal protection do students have regarding dissection?
Students from K-12 have the legal right to refuse to dissect a once-living animal. Today student choice laws exist in California, Florida, Illinois, New Jersey, New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, and Virginia. Louisiana, Maine and Maryland offer informal policies, while similar legislation is pending in Massachusetts and Michigan. Individual students have inspired the development of these students' rights laws through their own actions. Students need to realize that they play a significant role in their education. And their choices can make a significant difference for animals.

These laws typically require the school to notify students and/or their parents at the beginning of the course. They allow the student to choose a humane alternative and the laws require that students who choose to opt out of dissection not be penalized for doing so.

In many cases students living in states that don't have protective policies have been successful in encouraging their teachers to allow them to use alternatives to dissection. Sometimes students have even succeeded in banning dissection at their schools because of their efforts.

Do any other countries have laws regarding dissection?
Animal dissection was banned from schools in Argentina in 1987 and in Slovakia in 1994. In 1993, a law took effect in Italy that recognizes the right of conscientious objectors to refuse to participate in animal's experimentation. In 1997, the Indian government announced that animal dissection would be made optional for school students in the country, and the decision was recently implemented. Additionally, in 2001 the Central Board of Secondary Education in India banned the dissection of mice, rats, and frogs from the curriculum. In December 1999, the Israeli Minister of Education, Yossi Sarid, announced an immediate ban on dissection and live-animal experimentation in the country's schools.

http://animalearn.org/faqs.php

Desíte they have an agenda, Peta gives valuable guidelines to follow:

What do dissections teach? Not much … except that it’s OK to chop up animals. In California, investigators brought up the possible connection between a series of cat mutilations and the cat dissections at the local high school. That wouldn’t surprise us: In his last interview before his death, Jeffrey Dahmer said that he became fascinated with blood and guts when his school gave him a knife and a dead animal to cut apart in biology class.

If you’re in grades K-12 and attend public school in the following states, just say “no”: California, Florida, Illinois, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, New York, Oregon, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, and Virginia. These states, as well as school districts in Austin, Texas, and Columbus, Ohio, have dissection choice laws or policies in place. Private schools, colleges, and universities are not covered by those laws, but you can still get an alternative. You’ve just got to ask for it the right way (see number 2 below).

For Canadian students, your right to refuse to dissect is protected under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Currently, Nova Scotia's South Shore and Vancouver, British Columbia, are the only locations in Canada that have passed student choice policies, though presently, school boards in Kelowna and Westbank, British Columbia, and Toronto are being encouraged to pass student choice policies as well. Please visit FrogsAreCool.com for more information including details of the policies currently in place.

1. Find out as early as possible—preferably a few months before the course—what they say you have to do. Investigate: Find out what animals the school uses and who supplies them. You’ll be so angry that you’ll most likely not only exercise your right to refuse to dissect, but also demand that the class stop using animals entirely!

2. Meet with the instructor right away and tell him or her that you cannot participate in the dissection because of your "sincerely held religious and moral beliefs about the sanctity of all life," and ask for a non-animal alternative. These words provide the basis for a possible legal case. (You do not have to support any formal religion; the courts have interpreted a belief that animals should not be killed for classroom dissection to be a religious belief, which schools cannot violate.) Do not offer a detailed explanation, and don’t get into an argument or try to defend your beliefs—you don’t have to. State your position in writing, be calm and polite, and ask for a prompt response. Make it clear that observing other students dissect an animal isn’t an acceptable alternative—it’s indirect participation in the dissection. Keep copies of all correspondence and detailed notes of conversations; take notes during any meetings.

3. Dissection has got to go. It was first introduced into schools in the early part of the last century, and there are now way more advanced ways to learn. Offer to research the alternatives and find those that satisfy the objectives of the course. Show that you’re willing to spend an equivalent amount of time and effort learning the lesson using a humane alternative. A number of organizations loan alternatives, including CD-ROM’s and virtual dissections, to students and schools. The following organizations have extensive lending libraries and will be glad to help you find a suitable alternative and provide you with additional information and suggestions:

The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS)
301-258-3046

National Anti-Vivisection Society (NAVS)
800-888-6287

American Anti-Vivisection Society (AAVS)
800-729-2287

Ethical Science Education Coalition (ESEC) (The educational branch of the New England Anti-Vivisection Society)
617-523-6020

"Alternatives in Education Database" (Allows keyword searches to identify a wide variety of alternatives)

Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (Factsheets)

Animals in Higher Education:
Problems, Alternatives and Recommendations
by Jonathan Balcombe, Ph.D. (An in-depth overview of the entire issue)

4. If you’re still told, "Dissect or fail," proceed up the chain of command. If you’re in pre-college (kindergarten through 12th grade) write to the principal, then the superintendent, and the school board. Ask your parents or guardians to write on your behalf. If you’re in college, write to the department head, then to the dean, and finally to the president.

5. If school officials still think they can violate your rights, try contacting an attorney for assistance. These cases don’t always need to go to court; they can often be settled with just a simple phone call from an attorney. To find an attorney in your area, try doing an online search using one of the services listed below. You can also try calling the service’s toll-free number, but conducting an online search may be more effective:

American Bar Association Lawyer Referral Service
541 N. Fairbanks Ct.
Chicago, IL 60611
1-800-285-2221

Lawyers.com*
1-800-526-4902, ext. 5095
[email protected]
*Note: This Internet referral service is owned and operated by Martindale-Hubbell. Even though “animal law” is not one of the choices listed, you can type “animal” in the “Legal Term” field to find attorneys who specialize in animal law.
http://www.petakids.com/disindex.html

Hope it helps

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 28 2007 at 00:17

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: February 28 2007 at 12:01

You know, I made a long post about your opinions of countries like Bolivia and I'm sure as Perú, plus your statement that learning the language that almost one third of your country speaks is a "luxury", but is useless Equality, you will never get it., so I better delete it.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 28 2007 at 12:06

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: February 28 2007 at 14:50

I'd say gladly post it, but perhaps in a different thread as to not drag this off topic? I'll gladly discuss my justification for saying that learning spanish is a luxury. And clear up any negative opinions you think I have towards other countries. I'd be more than happy to have the discussion, even over AIM or via PM if you find them to be me appropriate means.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

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Posted: February 28 2007 at 19:53

Ivan, one thing that law said was that the student could object to dissecting a ONCE LIVING animal. Having students dissect a fetal pig could circumvent the law, depending on one definition of what is and what isn't alive.

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Posted: February 28 2007 at 22:16

rileydog22 wrote:

Ivan, one thing that law said was that the student could object to dissecting a ONCE LIVING animal. Having students dissect a fetal pig could circumvent the law, depending on one definition of what is and what isn't alive.

The law doesn't require to justify your believes, I think a Jewish could easily reject to dissect a Pig because he isn't allowed to touch a repulsive animal, so there's your precendent.

A pro life person could easily say that that fetal pig's life was interrupted with no purpose.

There's always an argument.

Iván

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Posted: March 01 2007 at 18:37

I felt I had to state my opinion on the "Bolivia vs. Frogs" thing:

Seriously, is learning how the inside of a frog looks more important than knowing the world one lives in?

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: March 01 2007 at 20:07

^Filling Bolivia into an empty space on a map, and knowing the world one lives in are hardly the samething. Anatomy would be part of knowing the world one lives in.

And yet again, geography and biology aren't held in the same period. Teaching one in no way impedes the other. I'm for kids knowing both where Bolivia is and what the inside of a frog looks like.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

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Posted: March 01 2007 at 22:55

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

^Filling Bolivia into an empty space on a map, and knowing the world one lives in are hardly the samething. Anatomy would be part of knowing the world one lives in.

So...Isn't Bolivia part of the world we all live in?

And yet again, geography and biology aren't held in the same period. Teaching one in no way impedes the other.

No, that's a budget problem, kids learn how to dissect a frog, cat or Pig but die of heart attack at the age of 12 because the schools can't afford paying a PE teacher but can afford paying teachers to show how to butcher animals.

I'm for kids knowing both where Bolivia is and what the inside of a frog looks like.

Honestly.....I don't believe you, you were clear enough:

I personally don't care where Bolivia is (although I know) and I think a rudimentary knowledge of anatomy is far more important than knowing where Bolivia is. Hands on experience with an important scientific foundation vs. knowing where to put an inconsequential country with an GDP of 8 billion on a map. I think the dissection wins.

At least be consequential.

Iván

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: March 01 2007 at 23:09

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

^Filling Bolivia into an empty space on a map, and knowing the world one lives in are hardly the samething. Anatomy would be part of knowing the world one lives in.

So...Isn't Bolivia part of the world we all live in?

Never said that, I'm simply saying that "knowing the world one lives in" entails more than just knowing where Bolivia is, it would also entail anatomy.

And yet again, geography and biology aren't held in the same period. Teaching one in no way impedes the other.

Making a kid play volleyball for 50 mins a day won't stop him from being obesse. Schools teach kids, parents worry about them staying in shape.

I'm for kids knowing both where Bolivia is and what the inside of a frog looks like.

Honestly.....I don't believe you, you were clear enough:

Two things to note here. One is humor, I'm obviously exagerrating for effect. Secondly, note the personally. I believe kids should be taught where Bolivia is. However, if for some odd reason forced to chose between the two, I've already said where my priority lies.

At least be consequential.

Iván

EDIT: I really think my Bolivia comment is being misunderstood. I don't carry some any non-European country is insignificant mentality which it seems is how people are interpretting what I said.

Edited by Equality 7-2521 - March 01 2007 at 23:15

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Poll Question: Do you agree with the "farming" of animals for dissection?
Poll Choice	Votes	Poll Statistics
Yes	11	[37.93%]
No.	18	[62.07%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted