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Atomic_Rooster 
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 Topic: What does "epic" song exactly mean?
Posted: March 25 2007 at 01:57 |
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as a poet, i'll give you a professional opinion of what an epic is, other than one of the dullest and most self-indulgent things one can read.
an epic is any piece of literature, though originally only poetry, that covers a grand theme, such as Beowulf or War and Piece, though one is a long poem and the other is a Tolstoy novel.
This applies to Progressive rock songs in that songs deemed "epics" are those that either cover a grand subject of lyrics or of music, ie they progress a central idea or plot throughout the song or they evolve a melody or musical idea through organic compositional techniques.
Length of song is not essential, however, it is often a good rule of thumb, as most epics do take a fair amount of time to evolve and develop fully.
Thats pretty much it.
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I am but a servant of the mighty Fripp, the sound of whose loins shall forever be upon the tongues of his followers.
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eckhart
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Posted: March 24 2007 at 21:08 |
 Shakespeare wrote:
eckhart wrote:
Actually Stargazer by Rainbow would be an excellent example of an epic. Also Kashmir by Zeppelin. Tim |
I wouldn't concider those songs to be epics, because they have to distinct sections, and don't portray some sort of challenge/journey/battle/story/et cetera...and, personally, they're not nearly long enough.
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I agree with the whole journey/challenge etc. An epic could also be described as grand, majestic and compelling. A 6 or 7 minute song is certainly long enough, but not much shorter. And really lengthy songs aren't necessarily epics. It depends on the content and the style of music. The Bee Gees could extend Stayin' Alive to 15 minutes but it still won't be an epic. And if these two songs (Stargazer and Kashmir) don't deserve the tag of epic, then I don't know what does. Listen to the anguish in Dio's voice in the last couple minutes of Stargazer with the orchestra playing (very compelling). Sure sounds like a struggle. Now that is epic. Same goes for the majestic keyboards and flanged toms near the end of Kashmir. That song really resembles a journey.
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Zargus
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Posted: March 24 2007 at 20:09 |
yup Stargazer toghter with A Light in the black is what i think of when i hear the word epic or meby Tarkus ! 
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Shakespeare
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Posted: March 24 2007 at 11:26 |
eckhart wrote:
Actually Stargazer by Rainbow would be an excellent example of an epic. Also Kashmir by Zeppelin. Tim |
I wouldn't concider those songs to be epics, because they have to
distinct sections, and don't portray some sort of
challenge/journey/battle/story/et cetera...and, personally, they're not
nearly long enough.
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Proglodita
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Posted: March 23 2007 at 20:35 |
King Zappa wrote:
Epics tend to have completely different emotional ties to the various section of the song. It should take you on a "ride". Length is only a part because you need time to achieve this.
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KeleCableII
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Posted: March 23 2007 at 17:31 |
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I'd say an epic is typically a longish song with multiple parts that revolve around a certain theme, usually a story. 2112, Thick as a Brick, Supper's Ready, etc.
I'm not sure if that works though. Would Pain of Salvation's Dea Pecunie be considered an epic?
Edited by KeleCableII - March 23 2007 at 17:32
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micrinilo
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Posted: March 23 2007 at 15:50 |
I think that a long song is just that a long song.
IMO an epic requires more stuff than just a long lenght; it has to be a really work of art in any sense, with a great musicianship, a clear idea, (preferently) expressed in various song parts that could be instrumental and/or with lyrics, an outstanding emotions contol, if it´s performed by a band obviosly need a great team work, and great lyrics are the perfect complement.
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if i´m here or somewhere many miles away
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magnus
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Posted: March 23 2007 at 15:39 |
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IMO, an epic is a song which tells a story, while being of a certain length.
Generally, though, I mostly use the term to describe long(15-20+ mins) songs.
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The scattered jigsaw of my redemption laid out before my eyes Each piece as amorphous as the other - Each piece in its lack of shape a lie 
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fuxi
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Posted: March 23 2007 at 14:39 |
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The most EPIC prog epic from recent years must be "Inaugural Bash" by Deluge Grander (the name says it all!), on their album AUGUST IN THE URALS.
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King Zappa
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Posted: March 23 2007 at 14:34 |
Epics tend to have completely different emotional ties to the various section of the song. It should take you on a "ride". Length is only a part because you need time to achieve this.
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micky
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Posted: March 23 2007 at 10:49 |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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kingofbizzare
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Posted: March 23 2007 at 10:45 |
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For me, the two best examples of epic are A Night At The Opera by Blind Guardian and MDK by Magma. Epic is one of those things you can't define, you just know it when you hear it.
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yarstruly
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Posted: March 23 2007 at 10:08 |
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It has long been my understanding that, in prog, an "epic" is what would have been a song long enough to fill one side of an LP (approaching 18 minutes or more) and a "mini-epic" is in the 8-12 minute range (give or take a min or 2)....there are those songs in between those time ranges that are kind of a grey area such as "Awaken" by Yes (I usually think of those as epics though, because they usually get longer when played live)
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jfleischh
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Posted: March 23 2007 at 09:59 |
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I don't understand why people keep putting time limits on what constitutes an 'epic'. It's totally a subjective question. Alright, maybe if a song is thirty seconds long, we can agree that it is not an epic, but as others have said, I would consider Can-Utility and the Coastliners to be an epic. Also, there are twenty minute plus jam sessions that I would not consider an epic because there is no story being told with a beginning, middle, and end.
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sleeper
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Posted: March 23 2007 at 09:58 |
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I think that to be an epic a song has to be fairly long, say more than 10 minutes (though not always, the previously mentioned Fountain Of Salmacis being a good example), but a long song isnt always going to be an epic. Take the Tangents last album, the song In Earnest I would consider an epic, but not the longer title track, A Place In The Queue.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Marcos
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Posted: March 23 2007 at 09:35 |
In poetry and in general literature, epic compositions tells about a hero, and his adventures. But I understood "epic" means a long song (maybe 15 minutes or more) for prog-rockers.
For me, we have to mix both definitions.
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www.postmortemweb.com.ar
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micky
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Posted: March 23 2007 at 09:02 |
Snow Dog wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
T.Rox wrote:
From Wikipedia…
The epic is a broadly defined genre of poetry, and one of the major forms of narrative literature. It retells in a continuous narrative the life and works of a heroic or mythological person or group of persons. In the West, the Iliad, Odyssey and Nibelungenlied; and in the East, the Epic of Gilgamesh, Mahabharata, Ramayana, Shahnama and Epic of King Gesar are often cited as examples of the epic genre. The composition of epic poetry, or of long poems in general, has become uncommon in the Western world since the early 20th century. The meaning of the term epic, however, has evolved to refer to prose works, films, and similar works which are characterized by great length, multiple settings, large numbers of characters, or long span of time involved. As a result of this change in the use of the word, many prose works of the past may be called "epics" which were not composed or originally understood as such.
…now apply music to the poetry (lyrics) and you get the epic song!
Works for me 
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I agree, EPIC has no relation with the lenght necesarilly, normally this is an idea that comes from such movies as The Ten Commandments or Ben Hur, which were called EPICS because they contained heroic , Biblical or Mythologycal narrations, but due to the fact that this movies narrated long stories were also 3 or 4 hours , so the name EPIC was identified with the lenght exclusively.
IMO Fountain of Salmacis or Can-Utility and the Coasrliners as 100% Epics despie their lenght because of the main theme (The story of Hermaphroditus and King Knute).
Iván |
I disagree, in music...Epic must take into account song length. But, hey, I guess that depends on how long a song is that you normally listen too. |
I think you both are right... epic should have length in way.. but length itself isn't anything if you aren't saying anything. If you can say it in a shorter time.. like Genesis.. jesus.. who wants to hear them twidle around on their instruments for 20 damn minutes  it is sill epic in nature
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Snow Dog
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Posted: March 23 2007 at 08:36 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
T.Rox wrote:
From Wikipedia…
The epic is a broadly defined genre of poetry, and one of the major forms of narrative literature. It retells in a continuous narrative the life and works of a heroic or mythological person or group of persons. In the West, the Iliad, Odyssey and Nibelungenlied; and in the East, the Epic of Gilgamesh, Mahabharata, Ramayana, Shahnama and Epic of King Gesar are often cited as examples of the epic genre. The composition of epic poetry, or of long poems in general, has become uncommon in the Western world since the early 20th century. The meaning of the term epic, however, has evolved to refer to prose works, films, and similar works which are characterized by great length, multiple settings, large numbers of characters, or long span of time involved. As a result of this change in the use of the word, many prose works of the past may be called "epics" which were not composed or originally understood as such.
…now apply music to the poetry (lyrics) and you get the epic song!
Works for me |
I agree, EPIC has no relation with the lenght necesarilly, normally this is an idea that comes from such movies as The Ten Commandments or Ben Hur, which were called EPICS because they contained heroic , Biblical or Mythologycal narrations, but due to the fact that this movies narrated long stories were also 3 or 4 hours , so the name EPIC was identified with the lenght exclusively.
IMO Fountain of Salmacis or Can-Utility and the Coasrliners as 100% Epics despie their lenght because of the main theme (The story of Hermaphroditus and King Knute).
Iván |
I disagree, in music...Epic must take into account song length. But, hey, I guess that depends on how long a song is that you normally listen too.
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proglil49
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Posted: March 23 2007 at 08:32 |
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To me, when the word is used in music, it means song that have a couple of differents parts and in which the lyrics are all based on one general theme that connects the parts of the song. That's my interpretation.
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I want to be an astronaut
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Snow Dog
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Posted: March 23 2007 at 08:20 |
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For me an Epis is a 18 min plus song, could be less maybe 14 -17 mins too. It has to take me on some kind of musical journey though and explore different pathways on route.
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What does "epic" song exactly mean?
