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Certif1ed View Drop Down
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Prog Timeline
    Posted: April 22 2007 at 11:14
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

Vanilla Fudge seems to be a precursor for two branches of prog related music. Clearly their mix of rock and other other musics (serious, Tamla) can be heard very soon after in Nice (of course the main precursor for ELP ). However, Jeff Beck is quite clear about the heavy rhythm section of VF being his influence for the heavy rock of Truth and Cosa Nostra Beckola - which in turn provide the precursor for LZ - as stated in the Truth/Cosa Nostra CD liner notes.

Then I alway think the heavy rock heard both on the May Blitz albums and the early Stray albums, should not be neglected.And what about the Heavy Metal Kids?
 
Vanilla Fudge is a band I've never really treated seriously, due to the many "unusual" cover versions I've heard them do - which album(s) would you say are most important from a timeline perspective (earliest with mixed styles, etc.)?
 
I've always heard Spooky Tooth as a major influence on Led Zep (outside of Yardbirds, Bluesbreakers, etc) - and also on Deep Purple and Black Sabbath - would you concur?
 
If Iron Maiden want to cover their stuff ("All in Your Mind" was the B-side of "Holy Smoke"), Stray must be OK. and Heavy Metal Kids are fascinating because they released their debut in 1974 - indicating that the term was in use to describe Hard Rock music back then.
 
May Blitz I agree with; Their heavy sound (which they evolved - or possibly devolved - only slightly from their direct ancestors, Bakerloo) is only rivalled by High Tide. They're an acquired taste though - I understand they weren't very popular at the time (getting booed off on at least one reported occasion), and the music has a tendency to descend into noise (which I heartily approve of, but can understand why it might put people off!).
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Points: 2614 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2007 at 02:27
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ Slint is tagged mostly "Post Rock" on last.fm (http://www.lastfm.de/music/slint) ... but the album Tweez for example (http://www.lastfm.de/music/Slint/Tweez) is only tagged alternative rock, and for Spiderland it's half Indie, half Post Rock. I'd say that they are some kind of Proto Post Rock.


I would say Tweez was more a mix of post-rock and post-hardcore, but leaning more towards post-hardcore.  While Spiderland was all post-rock.  That's just me though....as far as I know.
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Points: 12799 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2007 at 13:37
Vanilla Fudge seems to be a precursor for two branches of prog related music. Clearly their mix of rock and other other musics (serious, Tamla) can be heard very soon after in Nice (of course the main precursor for ELP ). However, Jeff Beck is quite clear about the heavy rhythm section of VF being his influence for the heavy rock of Truth and Cosa Nostra Beckola - which in turn provide the precursor for LZ - as stated in the Truth/Cosa Nostra CD liner notes.

Then I alway think the heavy rock heard both on the May Blitz albums and the early Stray albums, should not be neglected.And what about the Heavy Metal Kids?
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Points: 20522 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2007 at 01:50
^ Slint is tagged mostly "Post Rock" on last.fm (http://www.lastfm.de/music/slint) ... but the album Tweez for example (http://www.lastfm.de/music/Slint/Tweez) is only tagged alternative rock, and for Spiderland it's half Indie, half Post Rock. I'd say that they are some kind of Proto Post Rock.


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - April 20 2007 at 01:55
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Points: 2614 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2007 at 19:00
Well it was pretty much Slint, and then everyone after who wanted to be them.
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Points: 20522 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2007 at 01:47
^ Ok, maybe 1994 instead of 1995 because of the Tortoise debut. But I really think that it wasn't until GYBE! and Sigur Ros that Post Rock became a genre (as opposed to some isolated experimental minimalistic albums).
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Points: 2614 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2007 at 20:31

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ example?


Slint - Tweez (1989), Spiderland (1991)
Tortoise - Tortoise (1994)
Rodan - Rusty (1994)
Don Caballero - For Respect (1993)
Gastr Del Sol - The Serpentine Similar (1993), Crookt Crackt or Fly (1994)
Dirty Three - Sad and Dangerous (1994)
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Points: 64352 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2007 at 03:38
ooh yeah, I should do that. Thanks for reminding me...

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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2007 at 03:31
^Did you check out the vids to "Forever" and "Black Tiger" I linked to above? Wink
 
That'll stir up the nostalgia! LOL
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Points: 64352 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2007 at 03:17
I saw Y&T regularly and they rocked, especially Dave who did have a couple techie riffs ('Hurricane', 'Forever') but didn't really influence. Sadly, after the metal chunks of Earthshaker and musicality of Black Tiger, they went downhill fast.

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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2007 at 03:00
Originally posted by glass house glass house wrote:

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Technical New Wave of Heavy Metal (1979-1982)
 
 
Would you put Y & T's Earthshaker in this section? Surely Meniketti's guitar play deserves that.
 
I saw Y&T at Reading festival in 1982 (Link to "Forever") - and they surely kicked ass - but Meniketti had a strong tendency towards bluff at that time; there are no identifiable techniques in the above linked video that are peculiar to or developed by Meniketti; most are very similar to Schenker.
 
There's no doubting Meniketti's ear for a good melody, and the rhythms are strong - but very strongly reminiscent of the Scorpions/UFO.
 
Just because Y&T were so good, here's "Black Tiger" from 1983 - but illustrating more strongly his tendency towards bluff/showmanship over measurable musical technique (which is very different to implying that the technique wasn't any good from a feeling point of view - it's simply that the provable elements are missing).
 
Illustrating further the UFO connection, here's the rather wonderful (and no less dodgy) video to Mean Streak with plenty of similarities to "Rock Bottom"), a passable shredding attempt and rich pinch harmonics.
 
Here's the UFO version (1975) and MSG version (1982) of "Rock Bottom" for reference, and just for kicks, a bonus version from UFO in 2001 at Donington - with Uli Jon Roth!.
 
 
Y&T made great music - but in 1983, there were plenty more higher up on the technical front - think Queensryche, Mercyful Fate, Metallica and Slayer. No-one's saying these bands were better - but their techniques were demonstrably more advanced (check the linked videos!).
 
Talking of advanced, there are other guitarists of the time who deserve gratuitous links while we're talking technique in the early 1980s. Wink


Edited by Certif1ed - April 18 2007 at 03:48
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Points: 20522 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2007 at 02:26
^ example?
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Points: 2614 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2007 at 20:23
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ How so?


Well post-rock albums were out before 1995. So the date of it starting in 95 is wrong.
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Points: 4986 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2007 at 15:46
Quote from Certif1ed:
Technical New Wave of Heavy Metal (1979-1982)
 
Diamond Head, Raven, Iron Maiden, Samson, Riot, Twelfth Night, Hawkwind, Uli Jon Roth, MSG, Van Halen, Blizzard of Ozz (Rhoads), Frank Zappa (was joined by Steve Vai at this time), Metal Church, Black Sabbath, Blue Oyster Cult, Venom (for sheer dumb right place, right time luck rather than skill).end quote.
 
Would you put Y & T's Earthshaker in this section? Surely Meniketti's guitar play deserves that.
 
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Points: 13239 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2007 at 15:33
Know the feeling. I spent the day at home today because I was ill, but tomorrow it's back to the trenches. I'll keep an eye on the thread - this is great stuff.


Edited by Angelo - April 17 2007 at 15:35
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Points: 20522 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2007 at 15:29
Originally posted by Angelo Angelo wrote:

Clap Never expected that a thread about a timeline could become so interesting. Keep this up Mark & Mike & others, this could be material for part 3 of ProgLucky's Prog Rock Guide....

Mike: did you attempt an update of the figure already?


No, unfortunately I'm currently very busy with work ... I might have some time to update the timeline next weekend, but it's more likely that it'll have to wait a while longer.Embarrassed
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Points: 13239 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2007 at 15:04
Clap Never expected that a thread about a timeline could become so interesting. Keep this up Mark & Mike & others, this could be material for part 3 of ProgLucky's Prog Rock Guide....

Mike: did you attempt an update of the figure already?


Edited by Angelo - April 17 2007 at 15:06
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Points: 64352 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2007 at 07:27
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

The other problem with the early 1980s is sorting out the technicians from the bluffers in the thrash metal camp - at the time, most of it seemed incredibly technical - but in perspective, only a select few really developed techniques that had staying power.


right.. like Viv Campbell with Ireland's Sweet Savage, later with Dio-- great early shredder, but more from a blues tradition (Gary Moore, Jimmy Page), and did few things we hadn't seen from Moore or Rhoads.







Edited by Atavachron - April 17 2007 at 07:28
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Points: 7559 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2007 at 07:16

I guess it's all proto-tech until the mid 1980s and the emergence of Vai and Malmsteen as major players - it's conclusive from his approach that Roth was an organic player, but also an incredibly technical one.

I'm not looking at "technical" as an overall style - I dislike meaningless genre labels intensely - I'm looking at it from a practical and provable point of view by asking the question; Did the musician(s) use and develop specific and demonstrable techniques that were later used as a (demonstrably) fundamental element of composition?
 
The problem I'm having finalising the early 1980s is with bands like Night Ranger and Bon Jovi, in which whammy bar (Brad Gillis - notably ex-Ozzy) and shredding (Jeff Watson), pinch harmonics and muting (Sambora) were regularly used as an integral part of solo writing. It's interesting that some sources state that Bon Jovi opened for the Scorpions in their early days.
 
Who would see these bands as contributors to a technical genre, given the standard pop songs they put out? Confused
 
The other problem with the early 1980s is sorting out the technicians from the bluffers in the thrash metal camp - at the time, most of it seemed incredibly technical - but in perspective, only a select few really developed techniques that had staying power.
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Points: 64352 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2007 at 05:21
oh there's no doubt Uli was and is hugely important.. more so than Schenker or possibly even EVH, so you are quitre correct (Yngwie may not even have picked up a guitar without him). And he was much more significant to shred with the Scorps than his work on the Electric Sun records (Earthquake, Firewind-- '79/80).. great albums and very progrssive but more organic psych than tech.







Edited by Atavachron - April 17 2007 at 05:24
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