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madgo2 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2007 at 23:04
I understand your argument on why you believe Sparks not to be a progressive band..  I disagree with your statement that I am making an argument based on "two wrongs don't make a right".  I was only responding to your statment that "they do not belong here".  My point is this:  Prog Archives, whether for bad or good, is defined by who is already here.  Based on that Sparks belong here as a progressive band.  In the strict definition of the term I agree Deep Purple and quite a few others do not belong here.  Now if they were not here would I still believe Sparks is a progressive band.  Yes I do, a progressive Art band.. 
 
Also  I find it interesting that  you own four of Sparks albumsClap out of twenty two which means you have less than tweny percent of their work which absoutely should disqualify you from having any relevant opinion on their body of work.  Buy the last two albums and then if you disagree I will respect that but certainly not before.  
 
By the way what is your opinion of the inclusion of Queen on Prog Archives?  Big%20smile


Edited by madgo2 - June 12 2007 at 23:06
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2007 at 23:11
^ This site is not, or should not be, defined by who is already here but rather a thorough and independent examination of the bulk and/or key work of a band. Peter's four Sparks albums are four more than I own and I very much respect his opinion, especially since it's input like his that will help a team decide on their addition.







Edited by Atavachron - June 12 2007 at 23:15
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2007 at 03:48

Correct Atavachron, a case needs to made for each proposed band on their own merits.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2007 at 18:27
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

^ This site is not, or should not be, defined by who is already here but rather a thorough and independent examination of the bulk and/or key work of a band. Peter's four Sparks albums are four more than I own and I very much respect his opinion, especially since it's input like his that will help a team decide on their addition.





 
Did you actually read what I wrote?  I do not believe that this site should be defined by who is here, however it is what it is and this site has many bands that are not progressive and I am entitled to my opinion.  Let me reiterate I believe there is enough of Sparks catalogue that is progressive that they deserve to be here.  As far as who decides that does not really matter to me and I certainly do not care for who you respect or what type of elitist attitude you bring to the table with your comment that truly added nothing to this debate or discussion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2007 at 18:29
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

Correct Atavachron, a case needs to made for each proposed band on their own merits.

 
LOL   At this point I am already convinced you will not add them.  Lets face it you guys already have your minds made up and have not heard anything they have done in thirty years.  Instead you play the game of lets pick on the new guy.  So be it.  I tried...


Edited by madgo2 - June 13 2007 at 18:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2007 at 18:40
I think, on reflection, they would be a worthy addition. Similar to 10cc in some ways. They have a quirky style, and some surprising songs.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2007 at 23:51
madgo2, I could have worded my statement in a warmer way-- don't misunderstand, Sparks has been on the Art Team table for about a week.. we currently don't have enough (or any) of their material to listen to. In time we will, or further opinions will come in from other collaborators (as above) and members. It's that simple, no decision has been made either way. If an SC who knows their material wants to add them after careful consideration, they have that right.

    




Edited by Atavachron - June 14 2007 at 00:06
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2007 at 03:39
Originally posted by madgo2 madgo2 wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

Correct Atavachron, a case needs to made for each proposed band on their own merits.

 
LOL   At this point I am already convinced you will not add them.  Lets face it you guys already have your minds made up and have not heard anything they have done in thirty years.  Instead you play the game of lets pick on the new guy.  So be it.  I tried...
 
Sorry, perhaps i shoudl have been clear that any opinions I voice in these threads are my personal thoughts, they do not represent the views of the Admin team, the site etc.
 
If you can convince one of the specialist teams to add them to their genre, they will be added. If you want to add them as "prog related", ask the Admin team for a final decision. Any decisions taken by the Admin team are based on the evidence presented, plus additional research. Strange as it may sound, this can mean that our decisions are at odds with our personal opinions.
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2007 at 03:52
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

Correct Atavachron, a case needs to made for each proposed band on their own merits.

 
I think he has a point actually. Bands already in the database MUST have SOME bearing on future additions.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2007 at 04:04
Yes, but they should not be used on the basis of "If X is here, then Y should be too". The underlying implication of such statements is that Band X (not Brand X!) should not be here, but since they are, it opens the doors for band Y.
 
For me, the problem with using other bands as justification is that the wrong part of their catalogue may be cited. For example, since Genesis is here and they made catchy pop music, then Abba should be too.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2007 at 04:07
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

Yes, but they should not be used on the basis of "If X is here, then Y should be too". The underlying implication of such statements is that Band X (not Brand X!) should not be here, but since they are, it opens the doors for band Y.
 
For me, the problem with using other bands as justification is that the wrong part of their catalogue may be cited. For example, since Genesis is here and they made catchy pop music, then Abba should be too.
 
I agree. What I'm saying is that what is here has some bearing...you can't ignore it, but  the proposed band MUST have a strong case also.
 
I think that makes some sense.
 
And the Geneisis/Abba argument is a bit of a red herring. Sparks are , imo, similar in some ways to bands like 10cc or Be Bop deluxe.


Edited by Snow Dog - June 14 2007 at 04:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2007 at 04:47
Originally posted by Man Erg Man Erg wrote:

Posted: June 02 2007 at 09:17

The first three albums,'A Woofer in Tweeters Clothing','Half Nelson/Sparks' and 'Kimono My House' are prog related I suppose but after that they became a clever pop band in a 10cc kind of way...Then again 10cc are in PAs


Bump

Edited by Man Erg - June 14 2007 at 04:48

Do 'The Stanley' otherwise I'll thrash you with some rhubarb.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2007 at 05:04
Originally posted by Man Erg Man Erg wrote:

Originally posted by Man Erg Man Erg wrote:

Posted: June 02 2007 at 09:17

The first three albums,'A Woofer in Tweeters Clothing','Half Nelson/Sparks' and 'Kimono My House' are prog related I suppose but after that they became a clever pop band in a 10cc kind of way...Then again 10cc are in PAs


Bump
 
You're not suggesting Kenny...are you?
 
For those unfamiliar......


Edited by Snow Dog - June 14 2007 at 05:08
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2007 at 05:16
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Man Erg Man Erg wrote:

Originally posted by Man Erg Man Erg wrote:

Posted: June 02 2007 at 09:17 The first three albums,'A Woofer in Tweeters Clothing','Half Nelson/Sparks' and 'Kimono My House' are prog related I suppose but after that they became a clever pop band in a 10cc kind of way...Then again 10cc are in PAs
Bump

 

You're not suggesting Kenny...are you?

 

For those unfamiliar......



OMG! I'd forgotten about them with their Special K logoed shirts.

Somebody will be suggesting Senasational Alex Harvey Band next...tsk! I dunno

Edited by Man Erg - June 14 2007 at 05:40

Do 'The Stanley' otherwise I'll thrash you with some rhubarb.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2007 at 07:57
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

madgo2, I could have worded my statement in a warmer way-- don't misunderstand, Sparks has been on the Art Team table for about a week.. we currently don't have enough (or any) of their material to listen to. In time we will, or further opinions will come in from other collaborators (as above) and members. It's that simple, no decision has been made either way. If an SC who knows their material wants to add them after careful consideration, they have that right.
    
 
Atavachron, I could have reacted in a more civil manner so that is cool, thanks Wink...  I would be happy to supply some mp3's of songs, etc or even a few links to video's etc if that would help with a decision.
 

 
 


Edited by madgo2 - June 14 2007 at 07:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2007 at 07:59
Originally posted by madgo2 madgo2 wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

madgo2, I could have worded my statement in a warmer way-- don't misunderstand, Sparks has been on the Art Team table for about a week.. we currently don't have enough (or any) of their material to listen to. In time we will, or further opinions will come in from other collaborators (as above) and members. It's that simple, no decision has been made either way. If an SC who knows their material wants to add them after careful consideration, they have that right.
     

 

ATavachron, I could have gotten a little less worked up about so that is cool, thanks...  I would be happy to supply some mp3's of songs, etc or even a few links to video's etc if that would help with a decision.


It would help a lot, thanks.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2007 at 09:00
Originally posted by madgo2 madgo2 wrote:

I understand your argument on why you believe Sparks not to be a progressive band..  I disagree with your statement that I am making an argument based on "two wrongs don't make a right".  I was only responding to your statement that "they do not belong here".  My point is this:  Prog Archives, whether for bad or good, is defined by who is already here.  Based on that Sparks belong here as a progressive band.  In the strict definition of the term I agree Deep Purple and quite a few others do not belong here.  Now if they were not here would I still believe Sparks is a progressive band.  Yes I do, a progressive Art band.. 
 
Also  I find it interesting that  you own four of Sparks albumsClap out of twenty two which means you have less than tweny percent of their work which absoutely should disqualify you from having any relevant opinion on their body of work.  Buy the last two albums and then if you disagree I will respect that but certainly not before.  
 
By the way what is your opinion of the inclusion of Queen on Prog Archives?  Big%20smile
I told you the Sparks albums I own -- that doesn't mean I've never heard any of their later (or earlier) stuff, but their dance-era material did nothing for me. I like their rocking, classic era stuff, with the killer guitar and Rickenbacker bass. I have read some good reviews of the new one, so I really want to check it out.
 
I think most long-term Sparks fans would agree that the four disks I currently have,  (Kimono My House,  Propaganda, Indiscreet, Big Beat) best represent the band in their heyday, and capture their essence. I believe those essential early albums are the ones which should weigh most heavily re the group's inclusion or exclusion.
 
I would hope you would "respect" my opinion on the band as "relevant," in any case. I have been a fan since about 1974, and my opinion was carefully considered and respectfully worded.Smile
 
***********************************************************************************************
 
Re Queen, they are irrelevant to this discussion, but since you ask, I have never considered them a prog band, and voted against their inclusion here. (I think they were overwhelmingly a very commercial top-40 band, if a very clever, talented one). I disliked most of what came after their first four albums, which is to say, the vast bulk of their output. (I find only Sheer heart Attack and A Night at the Opera to be really worth my time.)
 
I think Queen got in mainly due to their immense popularity with many of the decision makers here, and on the (over-weighted) strength of one album (Queen II) and one song (Bohemian Rhapsody) in particular.
 
I try to avoid the "if X is here, then Y and Z need to be added, too" type of argument for band additions, because I don't think it is a particularly valid or logical way to make such decisions. Yes is Yes, Queen is Queen, and Sparks are Sparks.
 
Just because i buy apples doesn't mean I have to buy (or like) cantaloupes, or pork chops....
 
Every time a new controversial addition is made or proposed, however, these "if X, then Y" arguments proliferate. (I can see their allure, though. For me, it is astounding that artists like Queen, Deep Purple, Wishbone Ash, various metal acts, etc, are apparently considered to be more akin to prog than David Bowie, for example.) Again, the ongoing problem is the out-dated, near useless "progressive" word itself -- it no longer refers to any one style or period of music, and is so vague and undefined in its current, forced application as to mean little more than a subjective value judgment such as "good."Ermm
 
 
But I try not to get too concerned about it. This is not my site, the great prog bands are here, and I like the forum folks, overall. it's just music, and i can categorize my own music collection any darn way i see fit. The exclusion or inclusion of Sparks, Zeppelin or Wishbone Ash, etc, will not have the slightest impact upon how I enjoy those artists.Smile


Edited by Peter - June 14 2007 at 09:07
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2007 at 21:42
Originally posted by Peter Peter wrote:

Originally posted by madgo2 madgo2 wrote:

I understand your argument on why you believe Sparks not to be a progressive band..  I disagree with your statement that I am making an argument based on "two wrongs don't make a right".  I was only responding to your statement that "they do not belong here".  My point is this:  Prog Archives, whether for bad or good, is defined by who is already here.  Based on that Sparks belong here as a progressive band.  In the strict definition of the term I agree Deep Purple and quite a few others do not belong here.  Now if they were not here would I still believe Sparks is a progressive band.  Yes I do, a progressive Art band.. 
 
Also  I find it interesting that  you own four of Sparks albumsClap out of twenty two which means you have less than tweny percent of their work which absoutely should disqualify you from having any relevant opinion on their body of work.  Buy the last two albums and then if you disagree I will respect that but certainly not before.  
 
By the way what is your opinion of the inclusion of Queen on Prog Archives?  Big%20smile
I told you the Sparks albums I own -- that doesn't mean I've never heard any of their later (or earlier) stuff, but their dance-era material did nothing for me. I like their rocking, classic era stuff, with the killer guitar and Rickenbacker bass. I have read some good reviews of the new one, so I really want to check it out.
 
I think most long-term Sparks fans would agree that the four disks I currently have,  (Kimono My House,  Propaganda, Indiscreet, Big Beat) best represent the band in their heyday, and capture their essence. I believe those essential early albums are the ones which should weigh most heavily re the group's inclusion or exclusion.
 
I would hope you would "respect" my opinion on the band as "relevant," in any case. I have been a fan since about 1974, and my opinion was carefully considered and respectfully worded.Smile
 
***********************************************************************************************
 
Re Queen, they are irrelevant to this discussion, but since you ask, I have never considered them a prog band, and voted against their inclusion here. (I think they were overwhelmingly a very commercial top-40 band, if a very clever, talented one). I disliked most of what came after their first four albums, which is to say, the vast bulk of their output. (I find only Sheer heart Attack and A Night at the Opera to be really worth my time.)
 
I think Queen got in mainly due to their immense popularity with many of the decision makers here, and on the (over-weighted) strength of one album (Queen II) and one song (Bohemian Rhapsody) in particular.
 
I try to avoid the "if X is here, then Y and Z need to be added, too" type of argument for band additions, because I don't think it is a particularly valid or logical way to make such decisions. Yes is Yes, Queen is Queen, and Sparks are Sparks.
 
Just because i buy apples doesn't mean I have to buy (or like) cantaloupes, or pork chops....
 
Every time a new controversial addition is made or proposed, however, these "if X, then Y" arguments proliferate. (I can see their allure, though. For me, it is astounding that artists like Queen, Deep Purple, Wishbone Ash, various metal acts, etc, are apparently considered to be more akin to prog than David Bowie, for example.) Again, the ongoing problem is the out-dated, near useless "progressive" word itself -- it no longer refers to any one style or period of music, and is so vague and undefined in its current, forced application as to mean little more than a subjective value judgment such as "good."Ermm
 
 
But I try not to get too concerned about it. This is not my site, the great prog bands are here, and I like the forum folks, overall. it's just music, and i can categorize my own music collection any darn way i see fit. The exclusion or inclusion of Sparks, Zeppelin or Wishbone Ash, etc, will not have the slightest impact upon how I enjoy those artists.Smile
 
I think the four albums you own certainly represent the "classic era" for Sparks. Personally I like all their albums albeit some more than others and I do respect your opinion on the band as being relevant, it's nice to hear someone who realizes that they did have the Rickenbacker bass sound early on.  I think you will enjoy "Hello Young Lovers" it is really a strong album.  It makes me wonder how a band can go so many years releasing "decent" material then out of nowhere start putting great stuff out again... I was on this site often a couple years ago, and then came back recently and was very surprised to see all the new additions of bands.  I never thought I would see Queen, The Beatles, Led Zep, etc... 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2007 at 21:47
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by madgo2 madgo2 wrote:

[QUOTE=Atavachron]madgo2, I could have worded my statement in a warmer way-- don't misunderstand, Sparks has been on the Art Team table for about a week.. we currently don't have enough (or any) of their material to listen to. In time we will, or further opinions will come in from other collaborators (as above) and members. It's that simple, no decision has been made either way. If an SC who knows their material wants to add them after careful consideration, they have that right.
     

 

ATavachron, I could have gotten a little less worked up about so that is cool, thanks...  I would be happy to supply some mp3's of songs, etc or even a few links to video's etc if that would help with a decision.


It would help a lot, thanks.

[/QUOTE
 
Where should I send the mp3's to? 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 14 2007 at 21:48
just PM me with them, thanks again

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