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Points: 16 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Who? Proto-Prog?
    Posted: September 18 2007 at 04:26
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

^ Both bands albums come at the height of the prog-rock movement, so I don't know how either are proto



The Who and Black Sabbath? The Who were releasing music half a decade before Black Sabbath. The Who were releasing mini-operas in 1966 and 1967, years before the height of the prog rock movement. That's why they're proto-prog.
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Points: 16 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2007 at 04:20
Originally posted by Pawned Heart Pawned Heart wrote:

I agree somewhat with Ivan.

Their most Progressive (note the capital 'P') record, Quadrophenia, came out in 1973, after prog was pretty well established.  Who's Next, in 1971, has some proggy-ness, but not enough to really count considering when it came out. 
Thus, the only contender for them being proto-prog would be Tommy, which aside from being a concept album, isn't really progressive at all. 
Finally, all their material before that is just typical 60s rocky nonsense.  Certainly not Proto.  (Except maybe Proto-punk, but that's already been covered).  


You've apparently never listened to "A Quick One While He's Away" from 1966 or "Rael" from 1967. Perhaps you haven't heard their 1967 cover of Edvard Grieg's "In the Hall of the Mountain King", either, years before ELP produced works in a similar vein.
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Points: 16 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2007 at 04:15
Originally posted by A B Negative A B Negative wrote:

Why can't The Who be proto-punk and proto-prog?


Bingo. We have a winner. The Who are indeed both proto-punk and proto-prog. That's one of the many reasons they're such an amazing, and enormously influential, band.
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Points: 10367 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 03 2007 at 05:30
Originally posted by Zargus Zargus wrote:

Why cant they have influenced both prog and punk?
Check the above posts and you will see the whole discussion has come full circle again. What I think has been detirmined is that the Who are prog related and proto punk.
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Points: 3491 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2007 at 19:08
Why cant they have influenced both prog and punk?
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Points: 30 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2007 at 16:08
I agree somewhat with Ivan.

Their most Progressive (note the capital 'P') record, Quadrophenia, came out in 1973, after prog was pretty well established.  Who's Next, in 1971, has some proggy-ness, but not enough to really count considering when it came out. 
Thus, the only contender for them being proto-prog would be Tommy, which aside from being a concept album, isn't really progressive at all. 
Finally, all their material before that is just typical 60s rocky nonsense.  Certainly not Proto.  (Except maybe Proto-punk, but that's already been covered). 

However, due to the importance of Quadrophenia and to a lesser extent Who's Next, they should definitely be in Prog Related. 
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2007 at 13:49
Originally posted by philippe philippe wrote:

Published in 1973, only "Quadrophenia" is strictly prog, so maybe it's sufficient to add them in prog related / proto-prog
 
Yes i agree Phillipe, that was my point from the start, a band that released their only semi Prog album in 1973 should not be in Proto Prog but in Prog Related.
 
Iván
            
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Points: 9669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2007 at 12:10
Originally posted by philippe philippe wrote:

Published in 1973, only "Quadrophenia" is strictly prog, so maybe it's sufficient to add them in prog related / proto-prog
 
Smile It's not prog to me, though Phillippe.
 
i see it as intelligent, classic hard rock -- I think "Who's Next" was more sophisticated, overall. Quadrophenia rocked harder than its predecessors, IMO.
 
Still, I can see why  a track like Love Reign O'er Me would be tagged as "prog" by many here -- but does the inclusion of strings make rock or pop prog? (if so, lots of 60s-70s soul and Motown must be prog....)Ermm
 
I still think "prog" is almost entirely subjective, often basically equating to "stuff we like." The scope of the term is vague in the extreme! (Thus basically pointless to argue about.)


Edited by Peter - September 02 2007 at 12:11
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Points: 3597 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2007 at 12:02
Published in 1973, only "Quadrophenia" is strictly prog, so maybe it's sufficient to add them in prog related / proto-prog
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Points: 9669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2007 at 11:58
Originally posted by meinmatrix meinmatrix wrote:

Originally posted by Peter Peter wrote:


Thumbs%20Up I agree with Ivan. I always saw Townshend & company as much more  forerunners of punk, not prog. Besides the aforementioned historical mod scene which they attached themselves to, just listen to the music and attitude of early Who songs like My Generation or Pictures of Lily, etc.


Well, early songs were just that - early songs. Later on The Who continued to become very progressive, don't you think? I haven't heard of any punk band making Rock Opera with multilayer harmonies, synthetizers and stuff like that.

ErmmWell yes -- "progressive" in the more literal sense of evolving in their music, but I've never seen them as a capital-P prog rock band -- simply a great, classic rock band who didn't stay in one place musically. (Like many, many artists with longer careers.)
 
(But "progressive" is largely a subjective concept anyway -- as I've long maintained. There's no way to definitively "nail down" the parameters of this supposed "genre," to the agreement of all. The term is more historical, and far from perfect as a word to describe something as varied as music. It's almost synonymous with "good" or even "complicated" -- though not all that is gathered under the prog umbrella is arguably "complicated" music. Due to its vague, subjective nature, the term and its scope re individual artists is ENDLESSLY argued over here! It's really up to each listener to decide, and order his or her albums accordingly.)
 
 
Damn fine band, and one of my lifetime faves, in any case! Clap
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Points: 230 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 02 2007 at 07:48
Originally posted by Peter Peter wrote:


Thumbs%20Up I agree with Ivan. I always saw Townshend & company as much more  forerunners of punk, not prog. Besides the aforementioned historical mod scene which they attached themselves to, just listen to the music and attitude of early Who songs like My Generation or Pictures of Lily, etc.


Well, early songs were just that - early songs. Later on The Who continued to become very progressive, don't you think? I haven't heard of any punk band making Rock Opera with multilayer harmonies, synthetizers and stuff like that.
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Points: 10367 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2007 at 14:28
Thanks Peter, I love music, and I love details, obsessive compulsive probably. Anyway, I love beer also, great idea, mmmmm ... beeeeer.
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Points: 9669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2007 at 13:50
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Before Iggy, there was the Velvet Underground, which reminds me of another artist who combines punk and prog tendencies, John Cale. Before the Velvets there were a lot of very raw garage rock bands that were ignored by the big record companies, and before that, some very punkish underground rockabilly. Punk has been around a long time, but it didn't get a genre defining name till after the Ramones toured England and set off a wave of do-it-yourself bands.

Excellent, informed -- and informative -- post, Easy Money.Thumbs%20Up

I've noticed your posts lately -- a newer member well worth the reading.Smile

Well, gotta go -- the sun is shining brightly, and those saturday chores are calling once more (plus, there's the siren song of the beer store)! Big%20smile
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2007 at 12:43
Originally posted by Peter Peter wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:



 
So if the relation of The Who with Prog is doubious, their relation with Punk is direct and undeniable, tghey were a MOD band this is not an opinion, is an historic fact.
 
Mod

Thumbs%20Up I agree with Ivan. I always saw Townshend & company as much more  forerunners of punk, not prog.

Besides the aforementioned historical mod scene which they attached themselves to, just listen to the music and attitude of early Who songs like My Generation or Pictures of Lily, etc.

Re "proper" punk in general, it was of course American (NYC) in origin, not English. Everyone always points to the Sex Pistols' Never Mind the Bollocks, but these guys, and this very influential album, were there first:

The%20image%20“http://blogs.indiewire.com/twhalliii/ramones.jpg”%20cannot%20be%20displayed,%20because%20it%20contains%20errors.

Along with early Who, I'd also point to Iggy and the Stooges as "proto-punk," any day. Just listen listen to 1969, or I wanna be Your Dog. Punk didn't just come out of nowhere.
 
BTW Peter: The Who was comming to South America with Iggy who was gioing to open each and every concert, so it's obvious Roger and pete recognize the ties between them.
 
The tour was suspended, first due to Iggy health problems (rumors) and then The Who followed them, hope they come in October.
 
Iván
 
 


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 01 2007 at 12:43
            
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Points: 10367 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2007 at 12:16
Before Iggy, there was the Velvet Underground, which reminds me of another artist who combines punk and prog tendencies, John Cale. Before the Velvets there were a lot of very raw garage rock bands that were ignored by the big record companies, and before that, some very punkish underground rockabilly. Punk has been around a long time, but it didn't get a genre defining name till after the Ramones toured England and set off a wave of do-it-yourself bands.

Edited by Easy Money - September 01 2007 at 12:54
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Points: 9669 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2007 at 11:51
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:



 
So if the relation of The Who with Prog is doubious, their relation with Punk is direct and undeniable, tghey were a MOD band this is not an opinion, is an historic fact.
 
Mod

Thumbs%20Up I agree with Ivan. I always saw Townshend & company as much more  forerunners of punk, not prog.

Besides the aforementioned historical mod scene which they attached themselves to, just listen to the music and attitude of early Who songs like My Generation or Pictures of Lily, etc.

Re "proper" punk in general, it was of course American (NYC) in origin, not English. Everyone always points to the Sex Pistols' Never Mind the Bollocks, but these guys, and this very influential album, were there first:

The%20image%20“http://blogs.indiewire.com/twhalliii/ramones.jpg”%20cannot%20be%20displayed,%20because%20it%20contains%20errors.

Along with early Who, I'd also point to Iggy and the Stooges as "proto-punk," any day. Just listen listen to 1969, or I wanna be Your Dog. Punk didn't just come out of nowhere.


Edited by Peter - September 01 2007 at 11:52
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Points: 10367 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2007 at 11:31
Originally posted by mrcozdude mrcozdude wrote:

I would of thought punk would be more inspired more the mod lifestyle then mod music as they were more of a statement,i guess an influence non the less.But now the discussion should be can punk related be in progressive music?
I am not interested in trying to influence who goes on this site, but the existence of music that draws from punk and prog is widespread, besides the aforementioned Roxy, Eno, Bowie and VDGG, there is also the Minutemen, Pere Ubu, Devo, Talking Heads, Gone, No Means NO, Nuerosis, Victim's Family, Massacre, John Zorn, Mr Bungle, Faith No More, Vernon Reid, and probably countless others I don't know about.
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Points: 2078 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 01 2007 at 10:44
I would of thought punk would be more inspired more the mod lifestyle then mod music as they were more of a statement,i guess an influence non the less.But now the discussion should be can punk related be in progressive music?



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Points: 10367 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2007 at 14:23
Originally posted by jimidom jimidom wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

 I agree, the Who are way more polished and complex than most early punk bands, but I do recall in the very very early days of punk, many punkers cited Quadrophenia as an influence. Probably the second most cited influence was Kiss. This was in their words, not mine.

 

<FONT face="Times New Roman, Times, serif" color=#330099 size=4>I know where they are coming from regarding Kiss as an influence. In their very early days, Kiss shared the bill with bands like the New York Dolls and the Harlots of 42nd St.
As I remember it, the British punks were more apt to name the Who and Roxy Music as inspiration, and the punks in California were more apt to name Kiss.
P.S. Its nice seeing Coltrane on here.
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 31 2007 at 14:02
Originally posted by mrcozdude mrcozdude wrote:

the only thing i have against this,is calling the who punk related,just cuz of power chords and the high energy the provide which to be honest if you listen to most albums isnt always trademark for example quadrophenia,a quick one,who are you,tommy no real relivance to punk and even with the my generation the song writing capabiltys are much more complex then punk music.Weather there should be on here or not, i dont care the more awesome bands the merrier.
 
I won't talk about The Who belonging here or not, becvause once they are here, they can't be deleted, so why loose time.
 
But The Who are DIRECTLY related to Punk. They were a MOD band  (Townshend described themselves as Mod posers because they were College material except Keith who was a real Mod).
 
Mod is the direct predecessor and base of the Punk movement, specuially the "Gang Mods" who were incredibly violent and enemies of Rock but specially enemies of Pshychedelia (My Generation was almost their anthem), as a fact Quadrophenia is a retrospective view of the MOD culture, just look at Jimmy with his scooter with a lot of mierrors as a rebelion to the British law that forced every motorcycle to have at least one mirror.
 
So if the relation of The Who with Prog is doubious, their relation with Punk is direct and undeniable, they were a MOD band this is not an opinion, is an historic fact.
 
Mod


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 01 2007 at 12:35
            
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