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Sinusoid 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 07 2007
Location: South Illinois
Status: Offline
Points: 55
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 Topic: Cream: Proto-Prog?
Posted: February 15 2008 at 00:04 |
Cream have probably been on the suggestion list several times before, but I don't see them on recent posts.
From what I know, Cream were among the first bands to utilize extended instrumental passages on their live performances. Plus, I'm pretty sure many PA members know about the influence of Clapton, Bruce and Baker on future artists.
I may get shot down since Cream is more blues influenced than anything, but I'd thought I'd bring them up. Any takers?
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1800iareyay
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2006
Location: United States
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Points: 2492
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Posted: February 15 2008 at 00:09 |
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Well, Jack Bruce and Ginger Baker have jazz qualifications, and their live jams are legendary and they manage to actually be entertaining, which is more than most jam bands ever achieve. That being said, just because everyone borrows in some way from this trio doesn't mean they should be included. I support Led Zeppelin being here because not only did they influence everyone, but they experimented with their music. Cream were pretty straight-forward blues jammers, like the Allman Brothers who came after them. Great, great band, but I can't see them here.
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Queen By-Tor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 13 2006
Location: Xanadu
Status: Offline
Points: 16111
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Posted: February 15 2008 at 00:16 |
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Though I may have no say what-so ever on the site I'd like to add some insight!
True, they're not very progressive at all, but there's no doubt that
they had at least a hand in influencing many of the bands, and indeed
prog bands to come. Even in Heavy Prog they're listed as influence for
many of the earlier bands.
Blues rock maybe, but I'd like to think they have a shot. After all,
isn't the proto genre open t the bands that helped to define the genres
(and sub genres) that exist in prog rock today? For shear influence I
think they'd do okay here. Hard Blues Psychedelia is at the heart of so
many a-prog band.
That and I'd love to review 'em.
Anyways, that's this groupie's two cents.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: February 15 2008 at 02:05 |
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Led Zeppelin is no more prog than cream is, so why not add them? (By the way, I like that Zeppelin is on this site, but they aren't prog, and we all know it.)
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Queen By-Tor
Special Collaborator
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Joined: September 13 2006
Location: Xanadu
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Points: 16111
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Posted: February 15 2008 at 02:15 |
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Might I add what so very people many people have said. Prog related is NOT prog.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
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Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
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Points: 64353
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Posted: February 15 2008 at 02:16 |
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there's no doubt about Cream's vast influence on almost every rock band that came after them - including many proto and HeavyProg bands - though they were not really Protoprog themselves, and that's an important factor in considering them ..in the end I would say no, as most of the important prog artists began moving away from Cream-type rock
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19535
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Posted: February 15 2008 at 02:16 |
If we are going to add every Classic Rock band and artist that influenced Prog artists, lets start with Elvis and Chuck Berry, without them there would not exist Rock and of course not Prog.
But a limit must be drawn, I believe Cream is not related to Prog, their influence limits to performing not to songwriting or composition, so I believe we're Ok without them.
Not that they are bad,. but they don't have a single Prog element, it's true that PP and PR are not Prog bands (Even though Proto Prog bands need to have Prog elements), but there has to be a direct and obvious relationand in this case it's non existent.
Just my opinion.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 15 2008 at 02:20
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Raff
Special Collaborator
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Joined: July 29 2005
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Points: 24391
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Posted: February 15 2008 at 02:23 |
 p0mt3 wrote:
Led Zeppelin is no more prog than cream is, so why not add them? (By the way, I like that Zeppelin is on this site, but they aren't prog, and we all know it.) |
Led Zeppelin were added at the owner's request, as were other bands or artists in PR. Unfortunately, the site is not ours, and if the owner wants an addition, then we comply. Simple as that. I think it is high time people realised this simple fact.
Then, LZ are in PROG-RELATED, which means exactly what it says. They are not in Symphonic, or even Heavy Prog. They were added because they were influenced by prog, especially on albums like Houses of the Holy or Physical Graffiti. The case of Cream is quite different, because they are being suggested for PROTO-PROG - which would mean having been influential on the formation of prog, not influenced by it.
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: February 15 2008 at 02:29 |
Ghost Rider wrote:
p0mt3 wrote:
Led Zeppelin is no more prog than cream is, so why not add them? (By the way, I like that Zeppelin is on this site, but they aren't prog, and we all know it.) |
Led Zeppelin were added at the owner's request, as were other bands or artists in PR. Unfortunately, the site is not ours, and if the owner wants an addition, then we comply. Simple as that. I think it is high time people realised this simple fact. |
Well, at the risk of pissing Micky off all over again, I'm going to debate you on what my meaning was. I wasn't protesting Zeppelin's existence on this site, I was just pointing out that they, like Cream, aren't prog per say, but are very welcome here as far as I am concerned. That is why Proto-Prog and Prog-Related are here, right? When did I not realize the ''simple fact'' that the owner gets what they want? I have no problem with that whatsoever.
So my point was that, since a subgenre exists now that can iclude bands like Zeppelin, why not Cream? I wasn't being sarcastic, I was being serious: I think adding them to the site is a good idea.
Edited by p0mt3 - February 15 2008 at 02:39
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
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Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
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Points: 64353
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Posted: February 15 2008 at 02:39 |
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^ and yet you haven't presented a single argument to support your desire ..*how* would they be 'good for the site'? In what way, exactly are they Protoprog? What does Zeppelin being Progrelated have to do with Cream being Protoprog?
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: February 15 2008 at 02:43 |
Atavachron wrote:
^ and yet you haven't presented a single argument to support your desire ..*how* would they be 'good for the site'? In what way, exactly are they Protoprog? What does Zeppelin being Progrelated have to do with Cream being Protoprog?
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Why, because both genres aren't strictly prog, so I think Cream has just as good a shot at making it as anyone else.
Thanks for attacking me, though. I needed it. Boy, I'm stupid, thanks for that. Whew! I realize my lack of intelligence, now!
Edited by p0mt3 - February 15 2008 at 02:44
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: February 15 2008 at 02:50 |
Oh also . . . I used Zeppelin as an example because of what 1800areyay said in his post. I know they aren't considered proto-prog, but they had already been compaired against Cream, so I just added to what had already been said The difference between the two genres has nothing to do with the point I was making, which was: because there are two genres that have made a way for otherwise non-progressive bands to exist here on the site, Cream should at least be considered.
Never mind. Upon closer examination of your post, you basically stuck words in my mouth by blatantly twisting my words into something other than what I meant. So, I really don't think we will get along. I'm not bothering any further.
Edited by p0mt3 - February 15 2008 at 02:56
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micky
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Joined: October 02 2005
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Posted: February 15 2008 at 06:13 |
p0mt3 wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
^ and yet you haven't presented a single argument to support your desire ..*how* would they be 'good for the site'? In what way, exactly are they Protoprog? What does Zeppelin being Progrelated have to do with Cream being Protoprog?
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Why, because both genres aren't strictly prog, so I think Cream has just as good a shot at making it as anyone else.
Thanks for attacking me, though. I needed it. Boy, I'm stupid, thanks for that. Whew! I realize my lack of intelligence, now! |
wow.. touchy... listen.. I can be a bit of a prick at times.. and will fully admit it. However David is one of the nicest and most thoughtful people on this forum. He did not attack you... only ask you to explain yourself and your reasons. 
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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chopper
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Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
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Points: 19943
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Posted: February 15 2008 at 08:42 |
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Led Zeppelin at least hovered on the edge of prog, particularly with the Houses Of The Holy album. I can't think of anything by Cream that fits the bill off-hand. More evidence required, I feel.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: February 15 2008 at 09:32 |
Proto Prog and Prog Related are the responsibility of the Admins, and to that end the case for addition must be presented to us (ie The Admin Team) by a Collaborator giving sound reasons why they should be included. Aside from direct requests from the site owner, we do not add bands to these "genres" without solid explanation of their merit, legacy to Progressive music and its development and (to a lesser extent) benefit to the site as a whole. Without reasoned arguments to support their inclusion there is no case to be presented, ergo, no inclusion.
The argument of "If X then why not Y" only holds value if there is an undisputed relationship between X and Y (ie only in very rare instances) and even then this should only be used as a supportive statement in conjunction with reasons relating solely to the band in question - simply "not being Prog" does not demonstrate that relationship and, if anything, weakens the case. As Iván rightly pointed out there has to be some element of Progressive music within the music of bands submitted for PP & PR.
Proto Prog is for bands that, prior to 1969, showed a clear and direct influence on the development of Progressive music as a genre within Rock and not just on Rock in general. If such a case can be made for Cream that survives a peer discussion such as this, then they can be presented to the Admins for consideration.
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What?
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: February 15 2008 at 11:52 |
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I understand. And I admit, I personally have not listened to Cream enough to really give a good argument, but felt like at least they should be given a chance, and it seems that they have, which as all anyone could ask for. If someone (topic starter, perhaps?) could convince a collaborator of Cream's influence in prog, then maybe they will have a shot; if not, well, then they won't. Simple as that, I suppose.
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micky
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Joined: October 02 2005
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Posted: February 15 2008 at 14:21 |
p0mt3 wrote:
I understand. And I admit, I personally have not listened to Cream enough to really give a good argument, but felt like at least they should be given a chance, and it seems that they have, which as all anyone could ask for. If someone (topic starter, perhaps?) could convince a collaborator of Cream's influence in prog, then maybe they will have a shot; if not, well, then they won't. Simple as that, I suppose. |
honestly with all the Cream fans here.. and I am sure as hell one of them... if there was any merit... they probably would have been here already. There is little argument TO be made for them to be in proto.. or related.
Edited by micky - February 15 2008 at 14:21
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: @ wicker man
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Points: 32690
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Posted: February 15 2008 at 14:30 |
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No time to even read what's been said, but since coming here I've felt and expressed that Cream would be a worthy addition to the archives under Proto-Prog, but never started a topic on it because the full "Prog" additions deserve more concentration. I personally don't think that the blues elements should exclude the band, either.
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Just a fanboy passin' through.
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micky
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Joined: October 02 2005
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Posted: February 15 2008 at 14:43 |
Logan wrote:
No time to even read what's been said, but since coming here I've felt and expressed that Cream would be a worthy addition to the archives under Proto-Prog, but never started a topic on it because the full "Prog" additions deserve more concentration. I personally don't think that the blues elements should exclude the band, either.
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except for prog seemed to be.. at least in the formative stage an attempt to get away from the blues based riffing of the late sixties and incorporate art.. structure... and other influences in music. At least that is how I see it.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Raff
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Posted: February 15 2008 at 14:47 |
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I don't want to sound even remotely confrontational, but I wish someone would reconsider the whole matter of Proto-Prog and Prog-Related before everything gets seriously out of hand. Regardless of Cream's merits (which I don't want to get into), adding them would get people clamoring for Hendrix, and this will soon spiral out of control. The atmosphere on the forums would become unbearable, and people would start calling each other names as it has already happened.
Personally, I have always thought PP and PR were positive additions to the site, but now I would scrap them both if I could - because they are divisive by nature, and no two persons will ever agree on what constitutes a 'relation to prog'.
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Cream: Proto-Prog?
