Examples of Dream Theater's influences

heyitsthatguy wrote: StyLaZyn wrote: =StyLaZyn   OK, example from The Spirit Carries On "Where did we come from? Why are we here? Where do we go when we die?"   Now tell me you don't hear either "Nobody's Home" or even more so "One of My Turns".  The vocal style is so close.       Quoting myself...that is very cheeky of me. Nonetheless, I remember another song, off SFAM as well. Does the song "Home" have parts that sounds familiar to anyone? Perhaps a tune by the name of Eulogy by Tool?   The first time I heard "Home", and I really do dig the tune still, I keep hearing something familar. It so happened to be another favorite of mine. That bass line is cool as heck but come on. There it is, plain and simple.   Again, I don't discount the abilities of DT. They are awesome musicians. But all this time, has it been that they borrowed materials from others? I'd say the most original material had come in the early days when creativity was plentiful. They haven't really given us anything new in some time.     actually I was thinking more 46 and 2 than Eulogy, that song's probably the first surfacing of them REALLY wearing their influences on their sleeves (and one of the last 100% tolerable offenses in my book)...it's only that one main riff that makes me think of it though, and Adam Jones certainly didn't do any of those runs that Petrucci does although I haven't heard AEnima in a while so maybe my memory's foggy...

=StyLaZyn   OK, example from The Spirit Carries On "Where did we come from? Why are we here? Where do we go when we die?"   Now tell me you don't hear either "Nobody's Home" or even more so "One of My Turns".  The vocal style is so close.

Yea but DT is making millions and all the n00bs love them!

 just kidding! just kidding!


But seriously, shown by the mixed opinions, I think its all about perception: What one hears, compared to what one has heard before. It's like the subjectiveness is doubled.





Edited by explodingjosh - March 06 2008 at 00:58

MikeEnRegalia wrote: StyLaZyn wrote: p0mt3 wrote: explodingjosh wrote: I think that "quoting" and "covering" are completely legal, creativitly wise. In Dream Theater's case, I don't think they even need to explicitly reference a band when they quote them. Like in the intro to Octavarium, its so blatant and obvious what they are quoting (if you know Shine On), a reference in the liner notes would be a "no sh1t" statement for most of their listeners. I think the problem is when the players sound way too close for comfort to another band. Its disappointing when you're craving new ideas. But I think these moments depend on the listener. I personally was pissed when I heard how James was singing (like R. Waters) in SFaM. I tried to not let it ruin the album for me.   Thank you! Someone else who can hear the Waters influence in LaBrie's SfaM work!   Having said that, I think SfaM (along with Octavarium, Awake and Images and Words) is one of the best albums DT ever did. The influences don't really bother me, but I think it's absurd when people defend them on the grounds that "all music is ripping off someone". Well, obviousely, but no other band really shows their ifnluences so obviousely; only DT.   Yep...there is a blatant ripoff of Waters from the Wall. But that's what you get when you lack creativity. Unless of course he intended to do so, in which case he better have throw Waters a bone in the liner notes.   For the record, I much prefer Octavarium, rip offs and all, over Systematic Chaos. I put in SC the other day and couldn't take it anymore during track 3. You know, I keep trying, hoping, but it never pans out. I did end up buying it for collection purposes, but there is a reason SC was collecting dust.   Bring back KMoore!!!!!  Bring back the DT of old!   Do you guys seriously think that Waters invented that particular style? I'm sure that thousands of singer/songwriters did it before him. I wish some people would get off their high horse here ...

Yea... I'm pretty sure the 'high horse' comment is for me, especially the 'I tried to not let it ruin the album for me'  part of my comment... I can see how that would sound 'high horsey'. But I promise, I was serious when I said it.... When I first heard that part of the album I really was saying, out loud, "'WTF is this?! that's freaking roger waters!!' I was sincerely angered. It seemed to me that LaBrie ripped off (not 'covered' or 'quoted', but ripped off ) Water's singing style that people, especially DT/prog fans, are very familiar with.

To me, it's not like James LaBrie thought "oh, well I'm going to sound personal and quiet in this part of the song, because it goes well with the lyrics", he thought "I'm going to sound like Roger Waters, because it goes well with the lyrics."


Edited by explodingjosh - March 05 2008 at 23:03

i can hear it now but ill be honest, i never heard it before. Labrie definitely has a distinct style, like it or not, and it doesnt lend itself well to covering hardly any vocal styles particularly waters. i dont think this was done purposefully i just think he was singing softly and low. thats about it. 

StyLaZyn wrote: MikeEnRegalia wrote: Do you guys seriously think that Waters invented that particular style? I'm sure that thousands of singer/songwriters did it before him. I wish some people would get off their high horse here ...   Mike, I don't question your point, but would very much like to know who Waters took his style from. I haven't heard every artist/singer out there, but I also have found Waters to be quite unique. I have always felt that Waters style was directly a result of his person and personality. His singing, to me, has always been a great illustration of the lyrics he wrote.

Agreed. But I don't think there are enough similarities between the two styles to call it a "rip-off". I'm a huge fan of Pink Floyd and I must have listened to The Wall more than 50 times, but I never ever thought of that album when I listened to Scenes from a Memory. I think that *maybe* they borrowed the concept - vocals and acoustic guitar strumming. But the vocal melody is not related to The Wall at all, and neither are the chord sequences.

 Quotes can be indicated in the sleeve, that could be helpful.

StyLaZyn wrote: p0mt3 wrote: explodingjosh wrote: I think that "quoting" and "covering" are completely legal, creativitly wise. In Dream Theater's case, I don't think they even need to explicitly reference a band when they quote them. Like in the intro to Octavarium, its so blatant and obvious what they are quoting (if you know Shine On), a reference in the liner notes would be a "no sh1t" statement for most of their listeners. I think the problem is when the players sound way too close for comfort to another band. Its disappointing when you're craving new ideas. But I think these moments depend on the listener. I personally was pissed when I heard how James was singing (like R. Waters) in SFaM. I tried to not let it ruin the album for me.   Thank you! Someone else who can hear the Waters influence in LaBrie's SfaM work!   Having said that, I think SfaM (along with Octavarium, Awake and Images and Words) is one of the best albums DT ever did. The influences don't really bother me, but I think it's absurd when people defend them on the grounds that "all music is ripping off someone". Well, obviousely, but no other band really shows their ifnluences so obviousely; only DT.   Yep...there is a blatant ripoff of Waters from the Wall. But that's what you get when you lack creativity. Unless of course he intended to do so, in which case he better have throw Waters a bone in the liner notes.   For the record, I much prefer Octavarium, rip offs and all, over Systematic Chaos. I put in SC the other day and couldn't take it anymore during track 3. You know, I keep trying, hoping, but it never pans out. I did end up buying it for collection purposes, but there is a reason SC was collecting dust.   Bring back KMoore!!!!!  Bring back the DT of old!

MisterProg2112 wrote: Jim Garten wrote: But they have been influenced by others.   But then again who hasn't been influenced by others?

No one. You can't get something from nothing. But that is not the point of this discussion.

My opinion is that it is essential to learn from the past and have many "influences", but I have been drawn away from Dream Theater because I believe they do not internalize their influences and mix them tell enough to create something brilliant.

Mr.Garten- Yes, Dream Theater have always said they wear their influences on their sleeves. Yet this is still basis for my opinion that while influences are healthy, not fully developing them into one's music and integrating it carefully and subliminally makes it seem like one is "copying" another person.

I'll give an example- The song Repentance off of their latest album. Listening to the chord progression, I immediately noticed that it used similar half-step movements in a minor key and voice leading as is almost the signature sound of Opeth. Right after the first few lines of the lyrics about 2 minutes into the song there is a small unison interlude with the guitar and bass utilizing the same type of chromaticism seen, again, in Opeth. The section with the apologizing voices is very, very similar to the track Vocari Dei on Pain of Salvation's Be album, both being many taped progressing voices, both with messages of apology. Mike Portnoy, who wrote the song Repentance even left a message on the machine that POS had set up for the messages in their song, making it obvious there he came up with the idea of the voices in DT's song.

I could give tens of examples of this sort of thing, especially in their recent work. Their influences are Dream Theater's blessing and flaw. The strong (and somewhat obvious) influences are a blessing as they attract fans of their influences to the band and are able to create very, very diverse music. They are also a curse, as I have pointed out, as people may be disappointed in the seeming lack of individual "Dream Theater sound" in their music as well as originality. Take whichever side you want, it doesn't matter, but I've been on both.

The T wrote: el böthy wrote: Yuhuuuuuuu Im seeing them tonight! Its gonna be so awesome (hopefully) ah, and yes, the whole Octavarium album is pretty much a rip-off... the last album is way better   I'll see them in may! And I paid like 2937239 dollars to actually meet them!   I agree that he album were the influences were the clearest was octavarium....And, as Jim said, they wear them on the sleeve. LIKE EVERYBODY does.... nobody complaints about other bands, though...   Go listen to Marillion and tell me they weren't influenced by some band I shall not mention...(just an example).   Music is the art of artistic theft.