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stonebeard 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
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Points: 28057
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 Posted: July 21 2008 at 22:03 |
 Henry Plainview wrote:
mithrandir wrote:
seems like a variation on this same topic pops up about once every 2 weeks here, what's the obsession folks? |
We need to justify nobody else having heard of/enjoying this brilliant music, so we invent this persecution complex.
peskypesky wrote:
That's why to this day, 30 years later, it's still considered sort of dorky to be into prog. |
It was always dorky, and the pictures in your sig make that very clear.
But the reality, at least that I've seen, is that we are the only ones who actually care what other people listen to. |
Nah, people want to covert people to other types of music all the time, it's the people who really really care about the genres that try to do it.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
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Points: 28057
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 21:58 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
The main reason of their existence was to simplify music to the extreme,so if you take the over simplification, the anarchism, the purity of Rock in the most essential aspect, the lack of blending....Then you keep nothing of Punk.
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You're treating punk music as ethos-based, whereas Prog music seems to be evenly style and ethos-based. Cannot Punk be the same? They're two opposite extremes.
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
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Points: 16715
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 21:56 |
mithrandir wrote:
seems like a variation on this same topic pops up about once every 2 weeks here, what's the obsession folks? |
We need to justify nobody else having heard of/enjoying this brilliant music, so we invent this persecution complex.
peskypesky wrote:
That's why to this day, 30 years later, it's still considered sort of dorky to be into prog. |
It was always dorky, and the pictures in your sig make that very clear.
But the reality, at least that I've seen, is that we are the only ones who actually care what other people listen to.
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 21:46 |
Bravo for your smiley, that makes my point.
Iván
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peskypesky
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 25 2005
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 359
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 21:42 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
[When a person makes a mistake clearly for diferent reasons than ignorance, specially after having a fluid debate with other persons, you don't rub it in his face trying to make fun of this person.
I now my reply is not kind, but aggressive or offensive posts deserve an offenssive or aggressive reply.
As simple as that
Iván
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Prog fan since 1974.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19535
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 18:37 |
peskypesky wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Yes Peskypesky, I made some typos due to the early hour, so I corrected them, but just in case...Now if you need further explanation.....get a translator
I may have problems with a language that is not mine, but I don't have problems thinking.
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But what point are you trying to make? |
In this case that i made a couple of typos, but not as you OBVIOUSLY tried to imply for lack of coherence or arguments.
When a person makes a mistake clearly for diferent reasons than ignorance, specially after having a fluid debate with other persons, you don't rub it in his face trying to make fun of this person.
I now my reply is not kind, but aggressive or offensive posts deserve an offenssive or aggressive reply.
As simple as that
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 21 2008 at 19:59
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Garion81
Special Collaborator
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Joined: May 22 2004
Location: So Cal, USA
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 17:31 |
The large record companies stopped signing prog bands about 1974 with a few exceptions. Any style of music or any other form of pop culture needs to have new blood to keep it going. People were still supporting the bands that still were making music. Maybe not to the extent of the peak years 1973-6 but still Yes, Genesis, ELP and Kansas were selling out bigger arenas in the late 70's. UK on the very first tour sold out the Forum (see LA Lakers).
Punk Disco or anything else did not kill prog.
The music started changing.
If bands wanted to stay signed and making money they got simpler. The day of the artist controlling the company was over until today when most non big label artists have complete control over what they do.
Edited by Garion81 - July 21 2008 at 17:32
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 "What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?"
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peskypesky
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 25 2005
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 359
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 16:54 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Yes Peskypesky, I made some typos due to the early hour, so I corrected them, but just in case...Now if you need further explanation.....get a translator
I may have problems with a language that is not mine, but I don't have problems thinking.
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But what point are you trying to make?
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Prog fan since 1974.
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dzx
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2008
Location: france
Status: Offline
Points: 117
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 16:48 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Yes Peskypesky, I made some typos due to the early hour, so I corrected them, but just in case:
mithrandir wrote:
might I remind you that Punk, even in its prototype form always had a freewheeling experimental element present, dating back to MC5, Velvets, Stooges and its garage/psych roots, and bands such as Suicide, Pere Ubu, Electric Eels, Television, Debris, etc, --none of which are "Pure Punk" as you might say,--all predate the so called 77 British Punk movement you seem to champion as "thee only true form of punk"
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Nah, you won't convince me, for me real Punk died almost as soon as it appeared. and turned into an hybrid form in a short term.
The early forms of Punk (Which are not Punk really) had a different set of values, doctrine and aesthetics than Punk, one lead to the other......yes, one influenced the other........yes, but they are not the same: as proto Prog is not Prog.
We should agree to disagree.
Iván |
Now if you need further explanation.....get a translator
I may have problems with a language that is not mine, but I don't have problems thinking.
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So you just sl*g off anyone who disagrees with you
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was that just an Am augmented minor 9th i heard? nice!
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dzx
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2008
Location: france
Status: Offline
Points: 117
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 16:30 |
Treasure wrote:
lol punk killing prog
Does anyone here own Robert Fripp's solo album, Exposure?
Listen to that and tell me prog and punk hate each other. |
Exactly 
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was that just an Am augmented minor 9th i heard? nice!
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 15:46 |
Yes Peskypesky, I made some typos due to the early hour, so I corrected them, but just in case:
mithrandir wrote:
might I remind you that Punk, even in its prototype form always had a freewheeling experimental element present, dating back to MC5, Velvets, Stooges and its garage/psych roots, and bands such as Suicide, Pere Ubu, Electric Eels, Television, Debris, etc, --none of which are "Pure Punk" as you might say,--all predate the so called 77 British Punk movement you seem to champion as "thee only true form of punk"
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Nah, you won't convince me, for me real Punk died almost as soon as it appeared. and turned into an hybrid form in a short term.
The early forms of Punk (Which are not Punk really) had a different set of values, doctrine and aesthetics than Punk, one lead to the other......yes, one influenced the other........yes, but they are not the same: as proto Prog is not Prog.
We should agree to disagree.
Iván |
Now if you need further explanation.....get a translator
I may have problems with a language that is not mine, but I don't have problems thinking.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 21 2008 at 15:57
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peskypesky
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 25 2005
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 359
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 15:33 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Nah, you won't convince me, for me real Punk died almost assoomn as it appeared and hybrid forms in a short term.
The early forms of Punk (Which are not Punk) had a different set of values, doctrine and aesthetics than Punk, one lead to the other, yes, one influenced the other, yes, but they are not the same as proto Prog is not Prog. |
Does this make sense to anyone?
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Prog fan since 1974.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19535
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 14:33 |
mithrandir wrote:
might I remind you that Punk, even in its prototype form always had a freewheeling experimental element present, dating back to MC5, Velvets, Stooges and its garage/psych roots, and bands such as Suicide, Pere Ubu, Electric Eels, Television, Debris, etc, --none of which are "Pure Punk" as you might say,--all predate the so called 77 British Punk movement you seem to champion as "thee only true form of punk"
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Nah, you won't convince me, for me real Punk died almost as soon as it appeared. and turned into a hybrid form in a short term.
The early forms of Punk (Which are not Punk really) had a different set of values, doctrine and aesthetics than Punk, one lead to the other......yes, one influenced the other........yes, but they are not the same: as proto Prog is not Prog.
We should agree to disagree.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - July 21 2008 at 15:52
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Slartibartfast
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Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
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Points: 29625
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 13:40 |
Treasure wrote:
lol punk killing prog
Does anyone here own Robert Fripp's solo album, Exposure?
Listen to that and tell me prog and punk hate each other. |
See also the League of Gentlemen albums.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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tszirmay
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 13:31 |
Walker wrote:
Frasse wrote:
I wasn't even born back then but get the impression that "Punk killed Prog" is a myth so influencing that proggers seem to believe it themselves.
Many of my favourite prog albums are from the punk-era of late 70s. Genesis was way bigger then than in the early 70s, and still prog. The biggest album of the era is Pink Floyds "The Wall" etc. |
Well,, I was around back then and living in New York, I can tell you all that Punk did indeed kill prog, at least in my part of the USA. Yes, some decent prog albums came out around that time (The Wall, Duke, Drama), but they were few and far between compared to the glory days of the early 70's. Forget about hearing prog in any local music venue.. it wasn't going to happen. I imagine London was the same way, and probably worse. |
Ah Walker! Yes, indeed. As I was there, I saw CLEARLY how the rock press savagely decimated progressive rock (Jethro Dull, The Muddy Blues etc...) because the media beacons such as Rolling Stone, Creem, Trouser Press in the USA and Melody Maker and NME in England , one day decided that it would be politically correct to have alittle revolution and eliminate the "Bourgeois & Elitist" prog acts , labelling them pompous dinasaurs and jumping on the punk bandwagon (Pistols, Clash, Vibrators, etc...) . For some people beyond the large media centers, obviously the CBGB looked like another NY cesspool but had no local impact. Unfortunately, many did get on the wave that led to new wave deeper in thevery late 70s and the 80s. By that time , there is little doubt that prog had faded into a dormant state of mediocrity (some going commercial aka Genesis) and others just faded away. It did happen, it was ugly, I have still some of the clippings from those rambuctuous days .
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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mithrandir
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 25 2006
Location: New Mexico
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Points: 933
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 12:19 |
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might I remind you that Punk, even in its prototype form always had a freewheeling experimental element present, dating back to MC5, Velvets, Stooges and its garage/psych roots, and bands such as Suicide, Pere Ubu, Electric Eels, Television, Debris, etc, --none of which are "Pure Punk" as you might say,--all predate the so called 77 British Punk movement you seem to champion as "thee only true form of punk"
Edited by mithrandir - July 21 2008 at 12:26
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 09:34 |
James wrote:
You misunderstood me, Iván.
Yes, they're influenced by punk but they also have the mentality of punk. They're just related sub-genres of punk rock.
Besides, what is prog-punk (pronk), pop punk. Celtic punk and ska-punk?
All four of those genres are punk sub-genres. The bands who play in those styles have the punk ethic and play punk music. It's just not the punk music of 1978, it's grown into something else. Prog has as well. Infact, what is Prog Rock? It's a thousand and one sub genres of some very loose genre called Progressive Rock.
Therefore, Prog Rock died before it actually began and in fact, does not exist and never has.
Some examples of those four sub-genres of Punk:
Pronk - Cardiacs
Pop Punk - any number of modern bands... but Blink-182, Green Day, Sum 41 and Good Charlotte
Celtic punk - Flogging Molly and Dropkick Murphy's
Ska Punk - Reel Big Fish and Less Than Jake
Noise Rock is also yet another genre that's influenced by punk and is a sub-genre of punk. This is a huge genre and it's immediate, by listening to such bands, that they have taken Punk in yet another direction. Boredoms, Melt-Banana and Lightning Bolt are obvious bands that come to mind here.
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James, for me, most of this suposedly sub-genres are only tags made to try to keep Punk alive in any way, I can't believe in such things as Pop Punk and much less Prog Punk, both are IMO only attempts which try to find a connection that is nothing but a remote influence.
Prog exists still pure and by sub-genres, it's a different case, sub-genres of Prog existed since the start, only some of them were coined and some particular ones appeared later, for example, Canterbury and Psyche pre-date Prog, Jethro Tull was a Folk Propg band even before theterm Prof Folk was used, Space Rock was created parallel to Symphonic.
Prog is essetially fusion o styles, Punk WAS not,
The main reason of their existence was to simplify music to the extreme,so if you take the over simplification, the anarchism, the purity of Rock in the most essential aspect, the lack of blending....Then you keep nothing of Punk.
Despite what peope said, I never saw New Age as a real form of Punk, tagging and inventing names is very easy, but the question if they really exist is not answered yet.
Iván
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 02:25 |
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You misunderstood me, Iván.
Yes, they're influenced by punk but they also have the mentality of punk. They're just related sub-genres of punk rock.
Besides, what is prog-punk (pronk), pop punk. Celtic punk and ska-punk?
All four of those genres are punk sub-genres. The bands who play in those styles have the punk ethic and play punk music. It's just not the punk music of 1978, it's grown into something else. Prog has as well. Infact, what is Prog Rock? It's a thousand and one sub genres of some very loose genre called Progressive Rock.
Therefore, Prog Rock died before it actually began and in fact, does not exist and never has.
Some examples of those four sub-genres of Punk:
Pronk - Cardiacs
Pop Punk - any number of modern bands... but Blink-182, Green Day, Sum 41 and Good Charlotte
Celtic punk - Flogging Molly and Dropkick Murphy's
Ska Punk - Reel Big Fish and Less Than Jake
Noise Rock is also yet another genre that's influenced by punk and is a sub-genre of punk. This is a huge genre and it's immediate, by listening to such bands, that they have taken Punk in yet another direction. Boredoms, Melt-Banana and Lightning Bolt are obvious bands that come to mind here.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 02:10 |
1.- James, your own a words say it:
James wrote:
All those genres are heavily influenced by punk.  |
I might admit they are influenced...BUT INFLUENCED DOESN'T MEAN THERE IS AN IDENTITY....AOR was influenced by Prog, but AOR is not Prog, Prog was influenced by Classical Music but it's not Classical Music.
At the end every new artist is influenced by many others of different genres, but saying this is influenced by Punk or Prog or Disco, is not the same as saying this Punk or Prog or Disco.
2.- Mithrandir, I'm not trying to degrade them, never care enough for them except when people try to resurrect urban myths like Punk killed Prog or similar, but in this case I'm pointing something I strongly believe, Punk lost it's roots a long time ago,
You mention two icons, one is doing Reggae and Steve Von Till is doing a psyche soundtrack....Where is the Punk?
Iván
Now it's time to sleep, tomorrow is working day.
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mithrandir
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Joined: March 25 2006
Location: New Mexico
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Points: 933
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Posted: July 21 2008 at 01:53 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
stuff... |
you're exhausting brotha, each point you make becomes more evident that you have no clue, not sure how many more ways I can point out to you how blocked in your mind is about Punk, and now your saying stuff like Hardcore is not Punk? unless something is lost in translation. It'd be easier if you just say "any Punk band that plays one note outside of the Punk canon, is no longer Punk!" --you would think the idea of a "Subgenre" never crossed your mind, those labels are still contributing great bands/releases to this day not to mention a strong back catalog that keeps them in business, you'll always have new generations of fans getting into Minor Theat and the DKs, (as well as Genesis and Yes) Today, Fugazi isn't doing Reggae, becasue Today Fugazi is no longer around, besides Fugazi never did reggae/dub it was just one of many influences, not what they played...but of course you'd never know that cause I'm certain you never heard a note of their music. You seem to have a hard time understanding the line between "a reggae influence" and actually playing "reggae" ...if you were familiar with the music you're trying to degrade them perhaps you'd understand a bit more,
Edited by mithrandir - July 21 2008 at 02:00
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
So punk killed the prog did it ?
