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Topic ClosedSo punk killed the prog did it ?

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Poll Question: in your part of the world was punk ever popular ?
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Dean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2008 at 19:33
Originally posted by Scratchy Scratchy wrote:

O.K.I believe we are more or less in agreement now Smile.I don't entirely agree with you about Sounds music paper though.At least from 1979 onwards anyway Confused.I noticed you are a little bit older than I am so you might put right on this.Did Sounds get behind the the Punk movement between 76 & 78.

I know from early '80's at least they were more of a NWOBHM music paper & were not in my opinion against Prog Rock exclusively.I was a regular buyer of this paper.I know they did have a bias towards heavier/loader music but I do not recall they had a bias towards Punk.Perhaps it was just me though who just ignored the Punk column's (although there wasn't much of a Punk scene left at this time,although the New Wave scene was developing).
I would say that Sounds was the foremost supporter of Punk from 76 through to 78 with Jon Savage and Jane Suck being their leading 'punk' writers (NME recruited Tony Parsons and Julie Burchill in response to them, advertising for "hip, young gunslingers" to apply as new writers), Gary Bushil, Phil Sutcliffe and Caroline Coon (allegedly the subject of The Stranglers' London Lady) also wrote about Punk for Sounds during that period. Wikipedia (Confused) claim Sounds was the first music paper to cover Punk. The magazine became known for its coverage of NWOBHM and Oi! when Geoff Barton became editor in the 80s.


Edited by Dean - August 08 2008 at 20:13
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2008 at 20:04
Originally posted by Scratchy Scratchy wrote:

Originally posted by peskypesky peskypesky wrote:

Prog has never fully recovered from the blow dealt by punk. Bands like Yes used to play stadiums in the 1970s. What current prog band nowadays comes close to that sort of audience?
 
I almost totally disagree.Punk fans were a totally different, mainly younger audience - they probably didn't even know what Prog Rock was even.I was probably in the younger part of the age group that were first attrated to punk music - although I hated it.The punk movement did have a major impact on big Arena type bands which included the bigger Prog groups.The record promoters probably started wondering whether it was wise spending exsorbitant amounts of cash setting up massive live shows OR alternatively investing their money in promoting numerous speculative , up & coming groups instead (from '76 onwards there were a massive amount of Punk groups being formed - alot of which were actually put together by the promoters themselves - a cheaper way of making money).You could say Prog was a victim of it's own success.All I am trying to say is that the massive decline in the marketability of Prog was not music based exclusively but commercial because the music industry started looking for new revenue streams.The started doubting whether they could get returns from promoting rock dinosaur acts - who required massive
amounts of cash to set up tours etc. with no promise of great returns.
 
Also you do not seem to recognise the influence of  NWOBHM had on prog.The biggest supported Prog bands were struggling to find promoters to set up their live shows & then music tastes of the more progressive inclined music listeners preferred a heavier sound.There were numerous new Prog styled bands who were clumped in with the NWOBHM but didn't make it due to this general change in music preference.The older Prog audience perhaps started to drift away - which is a normal accurance in music scenes anyway.The better / more experimental New wave bands may have attracted younger potential Prog fans as well - which ment that a continuous Prog scene was temparily halted until the Neo-prog rock scene was developed mostly by musicians who were into the older Prog bands and were now older enough & musically proficient enough to play music which at least sounded like their former idols.
It is a common misconception that Prog was arena-rock - very very few Prog bands could fill a stadium back then (Floyd, Genesis, ELP, Yes...). The majority of Prog acts worked the same circuit as any other bands: Universities and small venues, and none of them put on big extravagent shows.
 
Here is an archive of my "local" music venue http://www.aylesburyfriars.co.uk/index.html which played host to several Genesis concerts as well as being the club where Marillion were formed - check out the Phase 3 gigs and notice the gradual change in artists from Prog to Punk to New Wave. For example 1979 shows Peter Gabriel one week and The Banshees the next (I was at both gigs Approve); 1980 shows gigs by The Clash, The Ramones, Iggy Pop, Gillan and Genesis all within the first 3 months of the year.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2008 at 21:09
Thanks for reply Dean - very informative.
Did large stadium events actually decline in the peak punk era? ( my perception )
Were the BIG prog groups forced to perform in smaller venues due to the fact that large arena events had become unpopular?
Why do you think that genuine progressive groups didn't keep coming through between the '76 - '79 period at least ?(personally I believe there was a potential market for them) - the shelf life of these BIG Prog groups was at least on the decrease but what happened to the new Prog groups that should have & could have come through.Lack of genuine music ability or lack of promotion?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2008 at 21:43
On the contrary, the stadium events grew bigger - the hey-day of stadium rock was in the 80s with bands like Heart, Asia, KISS, Bon Jovi etc. Prog was a minor part of that before, during and after - the real stadium acts of the 70s were bands like Queen, Boston, Zepp and the Stones.
 
Bands like Camel, Caravan, Gentle Giant, Gong, Hawkwind, VdGG, Renaissance etc never played big venues.
 
Prog didn't die in 1979 and rise from the ashes as Neo in 1984 - it was a gradual transition that started (probably) as early as 1978 with bands like Twelfth Night
 
There were a number of up and coming Prog bands from 76 - 79 ... for example The Enid, LaHost, Marillion, Pendragon and After The Fire; and several Art Rock acts too such as Wire, Japan and Ultravox! who later bridged the gap between Prog and New Wave. Many of the bands that were Prog in the mid 70s just fell apart through natural causes and the members went on to other things (for example Psyche Prog band Second Hand became Xover Prog (synth-pop-symphonic) Seventh Wave).
 
I don't think lack of talent or music ability was the issue, it's just that many of the young musicians who would have formed Prog bands in the 80s were just as prone to "peer-pressure" as the record buying public was and followed fashion and chose the course that would give them a better chance of sucsess... I think this is evident from the "New Wave" musicians who have since done Prog or Prog-related things.
 
/edit: in terms of Stadium events - the Knebworth festivals of 1978 drew audiences of 60,000 (Genesis, Jefferson Starship, Tom Petty & Devo) and 45,000 (Frank Zappa, The Tubes, Peter Gabriel, The Boomtown Rats, Nick Lowe & Dave Edmunds) - the following year Zepp drew 200,000 over 2 days.


Edited by Dean - August 08 2008 at 21:50
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2008 at 23:32
Please, Please Please .... I'm trying to ween myself off of meaningless thread.
Alas,here goes again .
Music genres, as fads and trends do, have their peaks and valleys. Just as Dolly Parton hasWink:. .
Insert the following - punk/metal/country/dance - all have a heyday, a "dark side of the moon' commerccial success- wise" , and a revival.
Why ?
Mostly , because any musical form found entertaining (oh god, we can't let people enjoy their music, eh) will eventually find a new(er) audience. This is not a bad thing. Some new acts will advance the form, many will add to it, and others will either cash in, or just go along for the ride (no disrespect meant).
End result - the genres that people like go on.
Which is good. If you  like Prog, cause it is still a scene that brings up new bands, keeps older acts coming out with new releases; and best of all ... shows up as an influence in other types of music, so as to not to allow itself to become stale and reliant on fumes to keep it going.

Or, if you really are adamant that punk killed prog (Sado are we, maso are  you ) - Never Mind the Bollocks killed everything else. Apart from Eddie Eastman in the Canadian Urban Cowboy 80s scene. Whaaaaaa ????????????????
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2008 at 05:57
No way. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2008 at 22:51
Maybe punk just pulled the plug on a style which had already started to commit suicide:
http://www.videos.es/reproductor/rickwakeman-guineverewembley1975-(CL9NJh_0oy4
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 10 2008 at 01:07
Originally posted by peskypesky peskypesky wrote:

Maybe punk just pulled the plug on a style which had already started to commit suicide:
http://www.videos.es/reproductor/rickwakeman-guineverewembley1975-(CL9NJh_0oy4
 
Pulled the plug?
 
I believe it's alive and kicking yet, Roick Wakeman released more than 120 albums after that.
 
BTW: Blaming Rick for Arthur on ice is not being fully informed.
 
He had just had 2 heart attacks and informed he maybe should abandon performning, he wrote Myths and Legends in the hospital, so he was not in position to reject anything that was offered to him, when you probably will have to abandon your career at such young age, with a terrible contract with A&M, and with a family, you have to ensure them.
 
Rick had a contract on Wembley, but they also hired a show on ice, he was informed that he should use that stage or not play at all, he had to create that show in a couple of days, because he couldn't afford the luxury of leaving a contract.
 
Quote This was Rick Wakeman's third, high-profile effort as a solo artist. It is probably best remembered today for its accompanying live performances, which boldly went were no man had gone before (nor since, thankfully): Prog Rock meets the Ice Follies. To be fair (and perhaps to help us all feel a bit safer sleeping tonight), the King Arthur Capades didn't happen because Rick originally conceived it that way, but out of a scheduling necessity to accommodate with the incipient venue, which was having an ice show right before the planned concerts.
 
So who can blame him?
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 10 2008 at 06:30
^ I think that is also another prime example of Rick's mischievous sense of humour.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 10 2008 at 14:20
Thank god punk isn't big in my areaLOL, but sadly rap (yuck) isCry...

Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 10 2008 at 15:36
There seems to be a popular misconception that Punk evolved due to the excesses of Prog. I disagree.

Punk was around for a long time prior to hitting the big time in the mid-70s. And it was largely born in the US during the mid to late 60s. The reason it got big in 76-77 was the simple fact that the public demanded it. There was media hype - music critics were excited by a fresh sound and pushed it down the throats of the impressionable (working classes / unemployed masses). Prog had been anathema to them due to its university / classical / educated background just as Punk was anathema to the middle classes for whom Prog provided an epiphany.

Punk didn't kill Punk and Punk isn't dead either. Punk drove Prog away from the airwaves for a while but it provided the ideal chance for Prog to take a deep breath and a long hard look. Punk was a sharp cold blast, but it too has evolved. In fact, in some circles, Prog and Punk have merged to great effect. Cardiacs are a fine example, but also groups such as Coheed and Cambria, Amplifier and Mars Volta show influences of both.

For Prog to truly remain Prog, it should evolve. Punk helped Prog to do this. And just like Prog was driven beneath the surface for a time, so was Punk. But it hasn't gone away; it evolved through New Wave; New Romantics emerged concurrently and so the musical soup continued to be stirred by new styles, emotions and eras. For Punk was not just about the music, but more about a style, an ethic and a way of life.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2008 at 03:07
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2008 at 09:11
Originally posted by Baggiesfaninuk Baggiesfaninuk wrote:

For Punk was not just about the music, but more about a style, an ethic and a way of life.

You forgot about the sticking safety pins through your cheek thing. Tongue
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2008 at 11:54
Here in Portugal, new thing in music always appeared later, due to the "Estado Novo" period, the dictastorship.
But the Punk movement wasn't very popular. Genesis concerts in Cascais in 1975 were the most popular musical events until that time. And progressive rock was very popular, particularly when, outside Portugal, the punk was reigning, in the second half of the seventies. After that, prog was killed, but punk didn't appeared as it happened in the other countries. Tantra performed a sold out show in Coliseu dos Recreios, Lisbon in 1977, in the year they released "Mistérios e Maravilhas", and they were the first portuguese rock band to give a concert that was sold out on that venue. An equally praised and popular tour through the country followed. And year later, in 1978, they repeated the formula both in Lisbon and in the whole country, this time with "Holocausto".
Prog was decadent in the other countries by this time, but in Portugal it was so alive as it had been some years before in other countries. Tantra were, no doubt, one of the most popular bands here, but they disappeared too, to the point they are not very much remembered nowadays, but that fall was not responsability of punk.
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