Jazz Fusion or Jazz Prog Fusion |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 20527 |
Posted: August 30 2008 at 04:21 | |
^ it's great, just not compared to what Scott Henderson is capable of.
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Petrovsk Mizinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: December 24 2007 Location: Ukraine Status: Offline Points: 25210 |
Posted: August 30 2008 at 04:15 | |
Not even Petrucci's improvisation on In The Name Of God on Live at Budokan? |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 20527 |
Posted: August 30 2008 at 03:48 | |
I'm not sure that the listener always benefits from improvisation ... it highly depends on the musicians. Some are extremely good at it (Scott Henderson is one of the best IMO), others are not ... for example I'm a really big fan of John Petrucci and I think that he's currently one of the absolute best guitarists out there when it comes to both technique and writing interesting riffs and solos, but when it comes to improvising I haven't heard anything yet which exactly blew me away. |
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 29 2005 Location: Lilliwaup, Wa. Status: Offline Points: 5319 |
Posted: August 30 2008 at 00:34 | |
In an interview Scott Henderson says what an audience hears in Pittsburgh won`t be what they hear in Cleveland. Improvisation. The last Tribal Tech albums were just that. The listener benefits. Pinning down genres is like trying to catch soap bubbles. Led Zeppelin........fusion of blues and jazz
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator Jazz-Rock Specialist Joined: April 19 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 12799 |
Posted: August 29 2008 at 05:33 | |
Prog fusion yes. Jazz rock I don't think so - not overwhelmed by the jazz chords?? Which takes us to Planet X/Derek Sherinian - does the introduction of Allan Holdsworth move the music from prog fusion to jazz rock fusion - or does Holdsworth become more an individualist rock guitarist and it stays prog fusion????? Jazz purist wouldn't have truck with it. Remember one of several reasons Holdsworth left UK was that Jobson wanted the band to stick to the prepared arrangements with limited improv, Holdsworth wanted far more freedom. So how much of prog fusion band's gig will be repeated night after night on tour, how much is different every night? BTW in comparison, listening to a fair number of Hellborg/Lane/Sipe boots, I found there was a band that seemed to do most things different most nights. SImilarly Hellborg/Lanes' Indo jazz fusion recordings Icon (CD), Paris (DVD) differ greatly, as indeed these do from the BBC Radio 3 recording of the group in London.
PS
A decade agoI had a long correspondence with Steve Smith wrt the meaning of jazz rock/jazz fusion. Smith has 8 or so parameters, which include jazz chords, swing, some elements of be bop, etc..... which he seems to stick to wrt his Tone Center recordings. Edited by Dick Heath - August 29 2008 at 05:38 |
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The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS.
CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
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Forsuna
Forum Newbie Joined: August 27 2008 Location: OC Status: Offline Points: 9 |
Posted: August 28 2008 at 16:36 | |
Liquid Tension Experiment anyone? that considered one of em?
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www.myspace.com/forsuna
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Desoc
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: Oslo, Norway Status: Offline Points: 216 |
Posted: August 28 2008 at 14:28 | |
Don't worry Iván, that was merely a joke based on another thread. Read what I think about this in the "Real problem with prog metal" thread created by the T.
Hope I didn't cause any heart complications... |
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mr70s
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 21 2008 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 121 |
Posted: August 26 2008 at 08:07 | |
This is an interesting definition. Traditional or 'trad' jazz refers to the New Orleans sound of the 1920s and 30s. Quite different to jazz rock fusion I always thought. I would agree that trad jazz's exchanges of improvised solos was of importance.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 64375 |
Posted: August 26 2008 at 01:09 | |
Jazz Rock/Fusion definition:
Sometimes includes progressive jazz. This style fuses traditional jazz
arrangements, instruments, and performance style with elements of
progressive rock. The result is usually instrumental jazz-rock with a
somewhat more technical and complex edge. Very interesting to listen to
- especially if you are a musician who marvels at the amazing
virtuosity of some of these artists.
seems to me the issue of which artists to add to JR/F is up to our more than qualified team.. what does interest me is the JR/F definition which, if taken to the letter, specifies the genre "..fuses trad jazz with elements of progressive rock". This suggests artists similar to, say, RTF, Holdsworth and Bruford are to be favored as artists with prog elements, and that the larger spectrum of 'jazz rock' may be excluded. I don't know if this is the case but it does cause ambiguity. Edited by Atavachron - August 26 2008 at 01:32 |
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Petrovsk Mizinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: December 24 2007 Location: Ukraine Status: Offline Points: 25210 |
Posted: August 26 2008 at 00:28 | |
Umm you mean suggestions for new bands you haven't heard? |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: August 26 2008 at 00:19 | |
Progressive Hiphop?
PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Iván
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LeInsomniac
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 22 2006 Location: Portugal Status: Offline Points: 315 |
Posted: August 25 2008 at 22:22 | |
Not all jazz-fusion is prog, thats right in my point of view. However, artists like Miles and Herbie have (in some albums) that progressiveness (if we may call it so) in their works, thats why I allways thought Miles Davis should've been added to here, and now my wish has come true! (no thanks to me, thats for sure) BUT! we have to be more carefull in which way we think of
ONE: which elements qualify to be considered prog in jazz-fusion(ex: is it only rock inclusion?) TWO: we have to be carefull in the way we see JAZZ (as a whole movement) in the light of progressive rock (I know you might think its the same than the first question I made, but it isn't.) (ex: if Miles can be included, then can Charlie Parker be included? If Blood, Sweat and Tears is included then should Chicago be included? WOW is this question a mind-job? Hope not.) THREE AND FINAL: as mentioned before, I'm afraid that if we start REALLY thinking about this whole questioning-of-groups-to-be-included-deal, too much...we might have to think in reformulate some sub-genres, or the entire approach to progressive-rock this site has. Edited by LeInsomniac - August 25 2008 at 22:24 |
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mr70s
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 21 2008 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 121 |
Posted: August 25 2008 at 13:22 | |
I think the classical music angle is often overlooked. I'm thinking of quintessential proto - prog group The Nice in particular.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 20527 |
Posted: August 25 2008 at 10:16 | |
^ of course. Usually when I speak of artists in genre discussions I mean the most appropriate album from their discographies.
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Dick Heath
Special Collaborator Jazz-Rock Specialist Joined: April 19 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 12799 |
Posted: August 25 2008 at 09:49 | |
And then you have jazz musicians who simply don't keep still, shifting into and out of jazz-rock/fusion, e.g. Chick Corea. For instance I don't think any of the recent Allan Holdsworth studio albums are jazz rock - jazz fusion (minus rock) for sure) but there area heap of live recordings that have that rock element....And how to label Terj Rypdal when he decides he's writing 'serious music' for classical orchestras??? ETC.. |
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The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS.
CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
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Chris S
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 09 2004 Location: Front Range Status: Offline Points: 7028 |
Posted: August 25 2008 at 05:09 | |
One of the most sensible statements I have read in a long time. Edited by Chris Stacey - August 25 2008 at 05:35 |
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Desoc
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 12 2006 Location: Oslo, Norway Status: Offline Points: 216 |
Posted: August 24 2008 at 17:31 | |
5. Progressive Electronica 6. Progressive Folk 7. Progressive Hiphop I thought this was what the subcategories were for. But then again, I've always viewed the constraint in this site that all artists should have a base in rock, as quite narrow. And progressive has nothing to do with narrowness. |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 20527 |
Posted: August 23 2008 at 16:24 | |
^ I don't think that these definitions apply to all jazz rock ... Candy Dulfer (as mentioned by Dick Heath) might be an extreme example, but I guess I have a point. Somewhere between Mahavishnu Orchestra and Candy Dulfer there's a - admittedly fuzzy - boundary between prog and non-prog.
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mr70s
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 21 2008 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 121 |
Posted: August 23 2008 at 16:00 | |
Let's just throw open the flood gates to all jazz rock fusion. After all, there's always an element of rock, and it is progressive (by strict definition). Why ... and by which definition? Jazz rock fusion is progressive in the sense that it was, and remains in a constant state of flux.
For example, we could apply any of these defintions :
favoring or promoting progress
gradually advancing in extent describing action that is on-going progress and reform We could debate the result of these changes endlessly, but what can not be denied is that in the strict sense of the meaning, jazz rock fusion is progressive. Edited by mr70s - August 23 2008 at 16:09 |
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darkshade
Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: November 19 2005 Location: New Jersey Status: Offline Points: 10964 |
Posted: August 23 2008 at 14:45 | |
id be up to the task of re-writing a jazz-rock/fusion definition. maybe i'll compile a list when i get home from work |
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