PR/PP albums which I consider Heavy Prog - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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splyu

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Posted: November 11 2008 at 19:41

Other: Black Sabbath - Master of Reality

Peter

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Posted: November 11 2008 at 22:12

Found under a ROCK -- classic hard rock, if you must have further classification.

Sorry, Cacho, but I don't really know what 'heavy prog" is. I suppose it's another one of the far too many imaginary "genres" that have been dreamed up here over the years.

Those are hard rock albums to me, plain and simple. (Which was the music that would lead to metal, I guess, which -- at least to me -- is not progressive rock either.)

This site -- and this "category" -- revises music history, in order to justify adding non-prog artists (or so I firmly believe).

But then, what the heck is prog, anyway?

That's the eternal, unresolvable question here. Clearly, it's vastly different things to different people.

Number of PA members = approximate number of definitions of "progressive" on PA.

As this poll stands, I can't vote, because I don't accept (let alone see the need for) its terms. If such an option existed, my vote would be "None of the above are prog albums -- these should stay in the Rock or Hard Rock category, where they have been for 30+ years."

Why this need to re-write accepted rock history?

I don't get it -- does anyone really need to be led to classic rock artists as well known as these, through a (supposed) progressive rock site? Are the Zeppelin and Sabbath fans natural fits for Genesis and Gentle Giant? If either is the case, then we might as well just list all rock (especially 70s stuff, apparently) and be done with it -- take the guesswork and infighting around revisionist inclusions out of the equation once and for all!

After changing the site name to "Prog and Rock Archives," of course....

Ready for my "Progcetera" name yet, Max & Ron? It's yours if you want it.

According to PA, some (but more and ever more) rock is prog, some jazz is prog, some folk rock is prog, some metal is prog -- so logically, some country, punk, new wave, new age, reggae, hip hop, etc, etc, must be "prog" too!

And thus "prog" must simply mean "good" or "better than average" -- which is precisely the purely subjective, unwritten, (non) working "definition" we have arrived at here.

(Or so I keep saying, curmudgeonly, independent-thinking party-pooper that I am.

)

What a hazy, flimsy, near-meaningless way to "categorize" music this "progressive" notion is! It should be used only in the privacy of your own home, if you ask me!

Edited by Peter - November 11 2008 at 22:33

"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

Atavachron View Drop Down

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Posted: November 11 2008 at 22:25

^ I didn't take cacho's thread to be lobbying for these artists as prog, more just a discussion of why these albums may hold a place in a prog fans heart

Peter

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Posted: November 11 2008 at 23:16

Atavachron wrote:

^ I didn't take cacho's thread to be lobbying for these artists as prog, more just a discussion of why these albums may hold a place in a prog fans heart

Well text is always open to interpretation, of course.

How about just "hold a place in a rock fan's heart"?

Prog is a type of rock -- rock (as we have listed in this poll) is not a type of prog. Prog is the subgenre, the lesser-known, younger cousin (or offspring) of ROCK. Those listed artists in this poll are classic rock artists, not some b*stard, lesser division of "prog." Rock includes our territory, not the other way around. To extend the geographic analogy, prog is a minor province, vassal state or fiefdom of the far vaster and older empire of Rock. Rock annexes and incorporates us -- we don't annexe rock. That is sheer over-reaching pride, wishful thinking, revisionism, and pure blindness to the reality. (On a a similar note, where I come from, in our provincial pride we often joke that "1949 is when Canada joined Newfoundland" -- but we know it is a joke.)

Prog can be filed under rock -- as it is, and always has been, in music stores.

I can't relate -- all of this revision, all of these categories are useless to me. I file Black Sabbath under 'B" with the Beatles, Billy Bragg, Bananarama and Bauhaus. I know what they all sound like, I know that they're all different, but I know they are all found in Rock/Pop in a record store.

^ I just looked under "B" in the Archives, to see if I could put a well-known "classic" prog band in my "B list" above (none were obvious enough -- I should have gone with G

), and I was surprised to see just how many extremely diverse artists, and how many supposed categories of prog and "relations" were listed there! Yes, it simply looked like browsing under B in the Rock/Pop section of a large record store. I firmly believe the "prog" thread which supposedly binds all of this diverse music together is more thin, stretched and tenuous than ever. It looks darned close to "AllMusic" to me!

Anyway, Atavachron & Cacho my friends, I'm not fighting -- please don't take offense!

It's just music and the classification of music we are debating, after all! I find the subject interesting from time to time, I like hanging around this forum, I like and respect most of the people, but I think too many prog fans needlessly over-analyze and over-complicate the subject.

It's just not how I think of or find music.

Edited by Peter - November 11 2008 at 23:33

"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

Peter

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Posted: November 11 2008 at 23:29

Maybe the difference in our perspectives, Atavachron, is due to the fact that I'm primarily a rock (and music in general) fan, rather than being primarily a prog fan.

I'm currently listening to my entire collection of music on random play on my Ipod. There's over thirty days (!) of music in there, and I'd only consider about 10% of it to be "prog." I think many here listen to far more prog than I do, proportionately speaking. When someone asks me what kind of music I listen to, I reply 'LOADS of stuff." I might go on to say "mostly rock," but it never occurs to me to say "prog." (Most folks don't know the term, anyway.)

Thanks for reading. Take care & goodnight!

"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

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Posted: November 11 2008 at 23:39

I hear you Peter.. don't think of the many categories here as 'genres', more rather 'descriptives', a convenient use of language to quickly convey a style or sound to the new or intermediate fan.. as an archives and not just a fan site, it is one way we're able to take someone by the hand and help them through this enormous and wonderful music. Also, the term 'heavy prog' - like 'symphonic' or 'avant garde' - has been widely used for many years to describe the harder side of guitar-based Prog of which it turns out there was and is a ton

..and good night Peter ! Smile

Jozef

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Posted: November 12 2008 at 00:11

I'd go with "Houses of the Holy" from Led Zeppelin. "No Quarter" and "The Rain Song" are some of the most epic moments on the album.

Guzzman

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Posted: November 12 2008 at 07:19

My vote goes to Physical Graffiti (sorry, Peter), but my heart goes out to Peter for his wise words Hug

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The Quiet One View Drop Down

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Posted: November 12 2008 at 08:07

Peter wrote:

Maybe the difference in our perspectives, Atavachron, is due to the fact that I'm primarily a rock (and music in general) fan, rather than being primarily a prog fan.

Thanks for reading. Take care & goodnight!

I quoted this post of yours but could have been any..
I'm no Prog exclusive fan either, and I do not listen to Zep, Sabbath, Purple and many others just because they're considered Prog-Related, or Heavy Prog or Proto-Prog, it's just because I love Hard Rock music and I like rocking

I consider all the bands from Heavy Prog to be also Hard Rock or even Metal, I'm sure fans of these bands don't listen to them cause they're Prog, they listen to them because they're f**king great rock bands. If you wanna hear "Prog" you'll listen to the classic stuff, Symphonic, Ecelectic, Psych, and of course you got more.

The poll question and title was just a way to find a new topic to discuss, because I was bored. And love to see different opinions and tastes, and discuss friendly.

Peter

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Posted: November 12 2008 at 08:59

cacho wrote:

No sweat, Cacho -- that was my perspective on the music (or the categorization of it, anyway).

As for the actual quality of the music, you have some great artists & albums listed there. I still love the Zep and early Deep Purple, but I actually stopped listening to Sabbath and Rainbow as a young teen, when I got into prog rock. Thus for me at least, and for about 35 years, none of those bands have never been any sort of "prog." To me, they were and are the antithesis of prog, but as I've suggested, different people have differing perspectives as to just what sort or sorts of music "prog" implies and includes. We don't need to agree, especially if we both enjoy the music in any case, and keep it civil, as you indicate.

As I said, I see music categorization as more of a subjective, personal thing (the "I know what I like" syndrome), so for me, the problem is when we try to pin it all down, put it into various mutually-exclusive boxes, and label it for everyone. I firmly believe that each of us brings his or her unique personality, history and perspective to the interpretation of art, and that therefore, in a very fundamental way, we are ALL "right."

I like to keep it simple -- I don't need a new category which includes the adjective "prog" for those old hard rock artists. I already know what they all sound like (though I guess some younger folks won't). Still, I really don't like to see long-established rock history being re-written and re-labelled here. I guess it just serves to prove the old maxim that you'll never please all of the people all of the time.

Thanks for reading and sharing your views. The interpretation of art can make for some interesting discussion!

Edited by Peter - November 12 2008 at 09:02

"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.

The Quiet One View Drop Down

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Posted: November 12 2008 at 10:04

^it's always pleasure for me to read your wise words, my friend.
And I understand your "put it into various mutually-exclusive boxes" dilema, it seems you weren't good at memorising stuff at school, right?

Oh by the way, I'm no Rainbow fan..

zicIy

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Posted: November 13 2008 at 01:38

Deep Purple In Rock is my fav album on the list.

SilverEclipse View Drop Down

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Posted: January 13 2009 at 10:17

Other - Both Good Apollo albums by Coheed & Cambria
             Queen - Queen II
             Queen - Queen

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SgtPepper67 View Drop Down

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Posted: January 13 2009 at 11:32

I voted for Sabbath bloody sabbath. I'm not sure if it's the most prog album on that list, probably not, but it always sounded closer to prog to me, probably because of the sound of the keyboards and synthesizers.

In the end the love you take is equal to the love you made...

fusionfreak View Drop Down

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Posted: January 16 2009 at 12:11

It's The Rick Wakeman effect!

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crimson king

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Posted: January 16 2009 at 12:28

Sabbath Bloody Sabbath is heavy prog so that one

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moshkito

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Posted: January 16 2009 at 14:31

Hi,

That's the worst selection of prog I have ever seen ...

That's not to say that there isn't some great stuff in there, because there is.

Deep Purple ... was the one of the two concerts I have ever walked out of in my life. One song does not a band make! And the decibel'age was uncalled for and un-necessary.

Thx

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Posted: January 16 2009 at 14:41

moshkito wrote:

Hi,

That's the worst selection of prog I have ever seen ...

Que? How so?

That's not to say that there isn't some great stuff in there, because there is.

Yes, like some of the best, most classic albums of all time (not only in the prog world)

Sabbath Bloody Sabbath is their most progressive and hardcore album and pretty much an assault on the beginning of the punk movement that was taking place that had very little depth to it ... this album was probably the most progressive that BS ever got. I always thought that Ozzie wanted to "show'em" who could crank and who couldn't ... and actually play music ... not just hack egos.

It's a great piece of music that is a good entrance point for prog heads who aren't familiar with Sabbath or Sabbath fans looking to get into some more 'heady music', agreed. What's your beef with it, then?

Deep Purple ... was the one of the two concerts I have ever walked out of in my life. One song does not a band make! And the decibel'age was uncalled for and un-necessary.

Considering that this is the same band that made the amazing "Made In Japan" you may be the minority on this one, good sir. I'm sure that the venue didn't empty just because you walked out. Here's a tip - I bring earplugs to every show because it makes the music less loud and more bearable, and they won't even have to turn it down just for you!

Led Z ... no criticisms. It's not prog in the sense that we like to define things here, but it was quite honestly a very good "personal expression" ... and that expression helped define a very nice catalogue of music that even today is very special to many of us. It is not progressive and neither was it being competitive with anyone else. It was what it was and had its own beauty and affection.

Please argue how it's not progressive. While Houses of The Holy certainly was more Rock than Prog it's hard to say that "Stairway To Heaven" or "Battle Of Evermore" - no matter how cliche they've become - are not progressive. They feature everything that makes prog what it was, even if it was played in a hard blues style and even if it helped define "classic" rock more than it did define the progressive scene. No keyboards? Who cares! What exactly is not prog about them? While the Prog-Related subgenre does feature bands that are "not progressive" they all had moments or albums which were progressive - since in the 70s it was kind of 'the thing' to do. Like bands these days have just about all done something dark and heavy.

Thx

You're welcome Wink

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Posted: January 16 2009 at 14:50

I understand you're new to the site, but I'd recommend you read the poll title more closely. No one here has stated that the above albums are prog, and, while you're free to disagree with the choices of the thread starter, I don't think your initial statement is the best introduction to a new forum.

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Posted: January 16 2009 at 15:04

Hey, if he wants to start on a confrontational note - I'm always looking for more people to argue with

Poll Question: Which one do you consider the closest thing to Heavy Prog?
Poll Choice	Votes	Poll Statistics
Presence - Led Zeppelin	0	[0.00%]
In Rock - Deep Purple	3	[10.34%]
Fireball - Deep Purple	3	[10.34%]
IV - Led Zeppelin	1	[3.45%]
Houses of the Holy - Led Zeppelin	1	[3.45%]
Black Sabbath - Black Sabbath	0	[0.00%]
Paranoid - Black Sabbath	0	[0.00%]
Sabbath Bloody Sabbath - Black Sabbath	5	[17.24%]
Sabotage - Black Sabbath	2	[6.90%]
Rising - Rainbow	7	[24.14%]
Physical Graffitti - Led Zeppelin	3	[10.34%]
Other(must be in the Prog-Related/Proto Prog category)	4	[13.79%]
This topic is closed, no new votes accepted