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88melter View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Old Prog Beats New Prog in Song Sample Plays
    Posted: January 21 2009 at 10:39
Notice, the posts for all sorts of categories relate to new prog bands, whose music has some following somewhere, I am sure. Then look at the most played song samples list. It is almost exclusively titles from 25 or more years ago. I think the definition of what makes a band's music PROG is wide enough so the relative art-lessness of most new stuff can duck under the bar.
   Symphonic prog is the standard by which all genres now considered PROG ought to be judged. The other styles are good rock music, but it is the symphonic-ness of these vintage trax that makes people want to hear them repeatedly.
   Yes, I am 53 yrs. old, as of today, Jan 21, as a matter of fact. I grew up listening to the music I am championing, and I am sure the young people of today will root for their generations efforts. 
  What say ye, current young people?
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Henry Plainview View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2009 at 11:22
You'll have to explain to me what the purpose of this thread is because I have no idea at the moment.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2009 at 11:24
^The purpose of this thread is to show us a new style of posting, with large fonts and in italics. It's going to be revolutionary, groundbreaking, everything that current prog is not, according to the OP
 
Other than that I don't see much purpose.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2009 at 11:32
I hate to show my ignorance, and lack of search skills, but I don't remember seeing a most played song samples list.  Is it on the progarchives homepage (I do have blocked scripts).  I will look for it, or perhaps someone could direct me?

Some elaboration on the opening "thesis" would help, but I don't readily equate "popularity" with artistic worth.


Edited by Logan - January 21 2009 at 11:36
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2009 at 11:56
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

I hate to show my ignorance, and lack of search skills, but I don't remember seeing a most played song samples list.  Is it on the progarchives homepage (I do have blocked scripts).  I will look for it, or perhaps someone could direct me?
It's in the weekly emails from Max that seem to be impossible to opt out of.
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

^The purpose of this thread is to show us a new style of posting, with large fonts and in italics. It's going to be revolutionary, groundbreaking, everything that current prog is not, according to the OP
 
Other than that I don't see much purpose.
Psh, RIO already did that in the seventies.
Check out that large text!
And italics! I win this round, modern imitators!


Edited by Henry Plainview - January 21 2009 at 12:06
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2009 at 12:30
^ Thanks.  I don't get the emails as the email address I gave has been defunct since not long after I joined.  The email addy may still exist in some fashion, but I haven't been able to access it in years.

"Symphonic prog is the standard by which all genres now considered PROG ought to be judged."

I'd love to read more elaboration on this concept.  I have some thoughts, but perhaps due to lack of sleep, they haven't fully coalesced. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2009 at 12:38
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

^ Thanks.  I don't get the emails as the email address I gave has been defunct since not long after I joined.  The email addy may still exist in some fashion, but I haven't been able to access it in years. 
I'm pretty sure you can change your email, although you probably shouldn't bother. They aren't very useful if you're an active visitor, since you can scan over the active threads, new reviews, and new albums yourself. But for those who don't read the emails, for the sake of discussion here is the list from last week.
 
"Time" by PINK FLOYD from Dark Side Of The Moon | 3669 plays
"Papillon" by REFUGEE from Refugee | 3020 plays
"Take The Long Way Home" by SUPERTRAMP from Breakfast in America | 2964 plays
"The Musical Box" by GENESIS from Nursery Cryme | 2953 plays
"The Knife" by GENESIS from Trespass | 2192 plays
"The Cinema Show" by GENESIS from Selling England By The Pound | 2156 plays
"Fading Lights" by GENESIS from We Can't Dance | 1769 plays
"Dogs" by PINK FLOYD from Animals | 1681 plays
"Welcome to the Machine" by PINK FLOYD from Wish You Were Here | 1652 plays
"Hispanola" by VANGELIS from 1492 - Conquest Of Paradise | 1566 plays
"Downstream" by SUPERTRAMP from Even in the Quietest Moments.... | 1500 plays
"Solsbury Hill" by GABRIEL, PETER from Peter Gabriel (1 - "Car") | 1414 plays
"In the Cage" by GENESIS from The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway | 1369 plays
"Los Endos" by GENESIS from A Trick Of The Tail | 1303 plays
"Set The Controls For The Heart Of The Sun " by PINK FLOYD from Live At Pompeii | 1090 plays
"Steel Monkey" by JETHRO TULL from Crest Of A Knave | 1042 plays
"Heart Of The Sunrise" by YES from Yessongs | 1018 plays
"Watcher of the Skies" by GENESIS from Foxtrot | 983 plays
"Crime Of The Century" by SUPERTRAMP from Crime of the Century | 945 plays
"Growing Up" by GABRIEL, PETER from Up | 898 plays
 
I would posit that they are more played because they more famous and have more samples available. And the samples are more substantial, since the only modern one I can think of that is comparable to Dogs is My Father, My King, which is an out of print EP, so that's hardly fair. But what do I know.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2009 at 12:41
^ Umm.... I guess I have to explain mysef.... I'm responsible for a large share of the plays of these. You see, I suffer from heavy insomnia, and...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2009 at 13:34
Thanks, Henry. 

Yep, I'd think most of it has to do with those being well-known, and that doesn't make those better.  As for using symphonic prog as the yardstick for all prog, one cannot deny the importance and impact of classic symph bands to Prog music, and while some might say that Symph Prog as a genre best epitomises Prog, bands such as Genesis and Yes do not, for me, represent a Prog pinnacle, and I see a problem with too mnay bands trying to imitate or are too heavily influenced by, the sound.  For me, Prog is, in part, about drawing on a wide range of music influences outside rock, and expanding the parameters of rock.  It's also about experimentation for me.  When Prog limits itself, and looks too much to one subset, it becomes less innovative/ rock genre expansive.  I actually have a problem with too many bands trying to sound/ be Prog rather than having a progressive attitude.

For me the Rock in Opposition movement best laid out as principles what Prog should and can aspire to.

I think we need to continue to expand our ideas of what Prog is, what it should be, and what it can be.... And I hope that many more artists will push the boundaries of what rock can be, and expand on the rock lexicon.  By judging Prog by the symph style ones, we limit and hinder ourselves too much, and hinder the progression of music, and risk too much emphasis on revisionism rather than inventiveness and expansion.

Popularity breeds popularity, and many look to retro-bands, as well as those that they modelled themselves on or are indebted to, because it's comfortable in its knownness.  It's more accessible.  Classic symph had significant commercial appeal.


Edited by Logan - January 21 2009 at 13:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2009 at 14:01
I thought it was a thread with hip lingo (prog beats) about sampling in rap "tunes".  LOL

My bad.  Embarrassed

That said, what we each use as a yardstick for comparison or reference does (and IMO certainly should) vary from one listener to another.  Unless prog is the very first music you've ever heard, we all bring a set of personal biases into any new style of music we encounter.  Leaving those biases at the door and listening with an open mind is a good idea, but not a requirement.  If we choose to let them color our experience that's pur choice.  If we are unable to prevent it, that's fine too.  It's just music, if you put some effort in your can find some cool new things to enjoy.  If you are unable or unwilling to do this as the Op seems to be, it OK too.  I'll sleep like a baby tonight either way.

I personally have always loved the symphonic sound and that, for me, is a big part of what prog is, should be, and always will be.  I tried pretty hard to get into the major modern prog bands who don't use the classics as a jumping off point, (Opeth, DT and PM in general, Porcupine Tree TMV, etc). and couldn't make any connection with it, it just left me either bored to tears or laughing out loud and neither of those was the reaction I was hoping for.  Lately I've been trying some new things in the RIO/Avant area and I've found a few things that really appeal to me that have little or nothing to do with classic symphonic prog.

* sits back and waits for Mike to tie thread to progfreak.com*  Big smile


Edited by Trademark - January 21 2009 at 14:13
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2009 at 14:12
Eh?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2009 at 14:15

¿¿¿?????Confused





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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2009 at 14:50

We don't understant what he meant, probably because it's his birthday today, he got drunk while partying, got home, wrote this post and then crashed !  loll

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2009 at 15:35
Originally posted by 88melter 88melter wrote:

The other styles are good rock music, but it is the symphonic-ness of these vintage trax that makes people want to hear them repeatedly.
 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2009 at 16:03
Let's keep the thread on track. If you don't get the point the original poster is making, simply ask politely for him to expand upon it.
 
There is a discussion to be had.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2009 at 16:17
Sorry if this post delves into matters at cross-purposes to 88melter's intent, but....

We do bring our own yardsticks and expectations, but for PA, and all the genre teams to accept that "Symphonic prog is the standard by which all genres now considered PROG ought to be judged" would present major problems.  In the Eclectic category, for instance, symph is but one style to look for.

If I hear a "Prog" band (accepting all the categories we have here as Prog), I will be most likely to judge it according to the standards set by the bands that it most similar too/ relates too.  If I want Zeuhl, I don't look to the standards set by Genesis, I'm more likely to look for the standards set by Magma.  If I want Canterbury Scene, I don't look to symph, I look to other Canterbury Scene bands -- I'm more likely to look to The Soft Machine than Camel (Camel having a Canterbury relation).  My yardsticks differ depending upon which Prog category the music would best fall in, and depending upon the influences, while at the same time recognising that Prog bands commonly cross styles.

For me, one of the wonderful things about music put under the Prog umbrella is the diversity  -- that keeps me interested because if I laregly tire of one category/ Prog "genre" I can move to another.  And within the individual categories there's commonly real diversity/ eclecticism of musical expression, and within Prog bands -- strength in diversity.


Edited by Logan - January 21 2009 at 16:19
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2009 at 16:27
I suggest that the quality of symphonic prog be measured according to the criteria of XIX c. and XX c. symphonic classical music.

 

Edited by Visitor13 - January 21 2009 at 16:28
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2009 at 06:52
88melter here. What is the Rock in Opposition movement? I would like to know more about it. Where can I read their manifesto or set of principles?
  I use a larger, bolder font because my vision is not the best, and I don't like using glasses at the computer.
  So far, we have an assertion that older prog has a certain aesthetic, and newer prog has a different one. Tell me more about this newer aesthetic. Info about what makes some newer bands different is better than just a list of these groups.
thanks,
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2009 at 07:21
Originally posted by 88melter 88melter wrote:

I use a larger, bolder font because my vision is not the best, and I don't like using glasses at the computer.
Not trying to be rude, i wouldent be able to read anything without my glasses on myself.
 
But i cant help wonder, how do you read the reply's then ? 
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2009 at 07:23
Still not sure what the point of the thread is, to be honest. Are you merely suggesting that older prog is better than new prog? Well, if thats the case, I do agree (and I'm 13 years younger than you), but we are merely expressing opinions. You can surely understand why a 16 year old from New Jersey (or wherever) MAY prefer Dream Theater or Tool to Gentle Giant or Yes. Crisp digital production and a bit of metal attitude is inevitiably going to go down better with a predominantly younger audience. Note, I am not generalising, before anybody wastes their own time claiming I am!!

Of course, older prog does have a different 'aesthetic' than more modern prog. The song writers grew up in different times, with some difference influences, and a different social and political back drop (if that should have any bearing on anything)

I would disagree that symphonic prog should be the standard by which all modern prog is judged. Why would this be? Symphonic is one sub genre within a huge progressive musical movement.

There is pleasure to be had by exploring Canterbury, Prog Metal, RIO etc etc... Give it a go..

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