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Moogtron III 
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Joined: April 26 2005
Location: Belgium
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Points: 10616
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 Posted: February 10 2014 at 04:36 |
Beautiful pictures both of Montreal and Lima. The outside of the Lima cathedral is stunning too. Infocat does have a point, but the possibility exists that also quite a lot of money goes into helping people too. I get the impression that's what's happening in the Roman-Catholic Church in Belgium nowadays, maybe also in other countries. As for the splendour in Roman Catholic churches: it does have a function: it's visual language. The beauty and the grandeur, and the images, they point towards another, transcendental, world.
Now I'm a Protestant pastor, and last weeks I had schoolclasses coming to visit my church. Belgium is mainly a Roman Catholic country, and we protestants are a small minority (1% of the population). The church building of my parish is mainly a small hall with a low ceiling, next to a shop, in a commercial zone. We have almost no images, and a table instead of an altar. Typically protestant, going back to the iconoclasm of the 16th century. One of the teenagers asked me: don't you think it's too sober looking in your church? I said I had to agree: I think our protestant tradition took it too far, taking all of the imagery out of the churches.
Going to a new parish in a few months time, one which thinks ecumene with the Roman Catholic Church is important. Haven't seen the Roman Catholic church in my new city of residence yet. Hoping I might lead a church service once in one of those beautiful Roman Catholic Churches. 
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Finnforest
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Joined: February 03 2007
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Points: 16913
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 04:56 |
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Edited by Finnforest - February 10 2014 at 06:10
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Ambient Hurricanes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 25 2011
Location: internet
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Points: 2549
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 08:27 |
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Wonderful pics, Ivan. Would love to visit there someday. I'm lucky enough to live in St.Louis where we have the beautiful Cathedral Basilica; I have been there a few times (I actually attended mass there twice) and it's absolutely stunning.
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I love dogs, I've always loved dogs
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AlexDOM
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2011
Location: Indianapolis
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Points: 775
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 09:52 |
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1 Samuel 15
Controversial Chapter... maybe... Any thoughts?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19535
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 11:34 |
 infocat wrote:
So that's where the money goes? |
This reveals absolute ignorance of how the system works.
1.- The Cathedral is property of the Peruvian Government, the Church only administrates it. 2.- The art pieces are registered in the Instituto Nacional de Cultura and can't be sold or negotiated because they are patrimony of Peru as Machu Pichu. 3.- The Museum pays the expenses of the Cathedral by far. 4.- Tourism benefices the city of Lima, not only the Church.
Now, the money of the Church goes here
| África The Church maintains in this continent 12.496 Escuelas maternas (Motherhood schools)
33.263 Escuelas primarias (Basic Schools)
9.838 Escuelas secundarias (High Schools)
1.074 Hospitales (Hospitals)
5.373 Dispensarios (Emergency clinics)
186 Leproserías (Leprosy Clinics)
753 Casas para ancianos, enfermos crónicos, minusválidos (Houses for old and physically impaired) 979 Orfanatos (Orphan houses)
1.997 Jardines de infancia (Education for infant centers)
1.590 Consultorios matrimoniales (Marriage Consulting offices)
2.947 Centros de educación o reeducación. (Centers for education or re-education)
1.279 Otras instituciones (Other institutions)
América The Church maintains in this continent 15.788 Escuelas maternas (Motherhood schools)
22.562 Escuelas primarias (Basic Schools)
11.053 Escuelas secundarias (High Schools)
1.669 Hospitales (Hospitals)
5.663 Dispensarios (Emergency clinics)
38 Leproserías (Leprosy Clinics)
3.839 Casas para ancianos, enfermos crónicos, minusválidos (Houses for old and physically impaired)
2.463 Orfanatos (Orphan houses)
3.715 Jardines de infancia (Education for infant centers)
4.827 Consultorios matrimoniales (Marriage Consulting offices)
13.652 Centros de educación o reeducación. (Centers for education or re-education)
4.239 Otras instituciones (Other institutions) Asia The Church maintains in this continent 13.683 Escuelas maternas (Motherhood schools)
15.698 Escuelas primarias (Basic Schools)
9.298 Escuelas secundarias (High Schools)
1.102 Hospitales (Hospitals)
3.532 Dispensarios (Emergency clinics)
293 Leproserías (Leprosy Clinics)
2.095 Casas para ancianos, enfermos crónicos, minusválidos (Houses for old and physically impaired)
3.367 Orfanatos (Orphan houses)
3.211 Jardines de infancia (Education for infant centers)
969 Consultorios matrimoniales (Marriage Consulting offices)
5.379 Centros de educación o reeducación. (Centers for education or re-education)
1.870 Otras instituciones (Other institutions) Europe The Church maintains in this continent 23.602 Escuelas maternas (Motherhood schools)
17.222 Escuelas primarias (Basic Schools)
10.338 Escuelas secundarias (High Schools)
1.363 Hospitales (Hospitals)
2.947 Dispensarios (Emergency clinics)
3 Leproserías (Leprosy Clinics)
8.271 Casas para ancianos, enfermos crónicos, minusválidos (Houses for old and physically impaired)
2.480 Orfanatos (Orphan houses)
2.524 Jardines de infancia (Orphan houses)
5.919 Consultorios matrimoniales (Marriage Consulting offices)
10.576 Centros de educación o reeducación. (Centers for education or re-education)
2.761 Otras instituciones (Other institutions) Australia The Church maintains in this continent 1.695 Escuelas maternas (Motherhood schools)
2.949 Escuelas primarias (Basic Schools)
683 Escuelas secundarias (High Schools)
170 Hospitales (Hospitals)
573 Dispensarios (Emergency clinics)
1 Leproserías (Leprosy Clinics)
490 Casas para ancianos, enfermos crónicos, minusválidos (Houses for old and physically impaired)
87 Orfanatos (Orphan houses)
108 Jardines de infancia (Orphan houses)
294 Consultorios matrimoniales (Marriage Consulting offices)
592 Centros de educación o reeducación. (Centers for education or re-education) 207 Otras instituciones (Other institutions)
Anuario Estadístico de la Iglesia» actualizado al 31 de diciembre de 2007. Catholic Church Year Book, December 31, 2007 |
The educational and health system of most countrioes of the world would collapse in 6 months without the support of the Church.
25% of AIDS patients in the planet who receive free anti-retrovirals would die in a year.
CARITAS is the biggest and most trusted charity organization in the world
| The full membership list of Caritas organisations includes: Africa 45 national agencies in Sub-Saharan Africa
Egypt - (part of MENA regional agency Caritas MONA) Kenya - Caritas Nairobi- operated by the Archdiocese of Nairobi
Asia 23 national agencies including:
Philippines - Caritas Manila Hong Kong - Caritas Hong Kong operated by the Catholic Diocese of Hong Kong Japan - Caritas Japan Nepal- [2] Indonesia - Caritas Indonesia - KARINA Indonesia - Caritas Bandung - operated by the Diocese of Bandung Indonesia - Cordia Caritas Medan - operated by Archdiocese of Medan Indonesia - Caritas Keuskupan Sibolga - operated by Roman Catholic Diocese of Sibolga Indonesia - Caritas Keuskupan Agung Semarang - KARINA KAS - operated by Archdiocese of Semarang Indonesia - Caritas Tanjungkarang - operated by the Roman Catholic Diocese of Tanjungkarang India - [3] Korea - Caritas Korea Cambodia - Caritas Cambodia Vietnam - Caritas Việt Nam (26 members of the diocesan) Macau - Caritas Macau MENA regional agency Caritas MONA with 17 national agencies including: Cyprus Jordan - Caritas Jordan Lebanon - Caritas Liban Syria
Europe Caritas Europa with 48 national agencies including:
Armenia- Armenian Caritas Austria - Caritas Osterreich Belgium - Caritas Catholica Belgica Bosnia and Herzegovina Serbia - Caritas Republic of Serbia Croatia Denmark - Caritas Danmark England and Wales - where there are two Caritas agencies: CAFOD and Caritas - Social Action Finland - Suomen Caritas ry France - where the Caritas agency is Secours catholique Germany - Caritas International Greece - Κάριτας Ελλάς Hungary - Katolikus Karitász Ireland - where the Caritas agency is Trócaire Italy - Caritas Italiana Lithuania - Caritas Lithuania Luxembourg - Caritas Luxembourg Malta - Caritas Malta Moldova, Republic of - Caritas Moldova Netherlands - where the Caritas agency is CORDAID Norway - Caritas Norge Poland - Caritas Polska Portugal - Caritas Portugal - Caritas Portuguesa Romania - Confederatia Caritas Romania Russia - Caritas in the European Part of Russia Scotland - where the Caritas agency is SCIAF Slovenia - Slovenska Karitas Spain - Cáritas Espańola Sweden - Caritas Sverige Switzerland - Caritas Switzerland Ukraine - Карітас України
North America, Central America and the Caribbean
Antillas Canada - Development and Peace (Caritas Canada) Costa Rica Cuba Dominican Republic El Salvador Guatemala - Caritas Guatemala Haiti Honduras Mexico - Caritas Mexico Nicaragua Panamá Puerto Rico United States - Catholic Relief Services, Catholic Charities USA, Caritas USA
Oceania 6 regional agencies, including:
Australia - Caritas Australia New Zealand - Caritas Aotearoa New Zealand Papua New Guinea - Caritas PNG
South America
Argentina - Caritas Argentina Bolivia Brasil - Caritas Brasil Chile Colombia Ecuador Perú - Cáritas Perú Uruguay Venezuela |
That's where the money goes.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 10 2014 at 11:35
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
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Points: 17493
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 11:46 |
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And where does it come from Ivan?
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Moogtron III
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 26 2005
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 10616
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 12:42 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
The educational and health system of most countrioes of the world would collapse in 6 months without the support of the Church.
25% of AIDS patients in the planet who receive free anti-retrovirals would die in a year.
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True, I saw that with my own eyes, for instance, in different African countries. Hospitals, schools, orphanages and an enormous attention for HIV/AIDS projects.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 12:44 |
The T wrote:
And where does it come from Ivan? |
In first place, you must forget the myth about the CATHOLIC WEALTH
| He then points out the often ignored fact that the yearly budget for operating the Vatican is less than $300 million. He contrasts this with Harvard University (which he labels as “the Vatican of elite secular opinion”) whose annual budget is $3.7 billion. Allen points out further that the patrimony (or endowment) of the Vatican is about $1 billion. Harvard, on the other hand, as a whopping $30.7 billion endowment. Allen concedes that the Vatican bank is in charge of the equivalent of over $6 billion, but then points out how the majority of that money is not actually the Vatican’s, and thus the Vatican would not be at liberty to use most of that amount for any purpose whatsoever.
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The money comes from:
1.- The Catholic Church is the only Christian Church that doesn't receive tithe (10% of the salary of it's members) 2.- Own Resources: Catholic Church has properties in Rome that are rented, laboratories, private hospitals (That finance the free ones), the Vatican Observatory, etc. 3.- Private Universities as Notre Dame pay a small percentage of their incomes to the church to be allowed to use the name of Pontificial. 4.- Donations: That give tax exemption 5.- Istituto per le Opere di Religione (Vatican Bank that is not a bank because does not use deposits to lend money and does not issue securities for resale or other financial products). 6.- Treaties with states 7.- The fact that priests and nuns who work in Catholic institutions dopn't have a salary.
Just think in this, Jehovah Witness and Mormons have a patrimony of about 25 billion dollars, and they don't donate 1% of what the catholic Church donates.
Iván
PS: The artistic patrimony CAN'T BE SOLD.
| Some confusion exists about the Vatican property, relics, artwork, etc., itself. Shouldn’t the Vatican just sell St. Peter’s Basilica, Vatican City, all of its religious patrimony? First of all, I don’t think it should, but even if it should, it can’t.
...
| Vatican City as its own independent nation state was created through a concordat with Italy in 1929 (the Lateran Concordat), which made Vatican City the smallest territorial state in the world. Article 18 of that concordat states the following: “The artistic and scientific treasures existing within the Vatican City and the Lateran Palace shall remain open to scholars and visitors, although the Holy See shall be free to regulate the admission of the public thereto” |
The Holy See would automatically violate its right to be sovereign if it overstepped these bounds. That is, since the property, art, etc., are seen to be the patrimony of all of Europe, and the Italian state obviously has concern for it, Italy would be well within its legal rights to take the Vatican back should the pope ever try to sell the Vatican property or artistic (etc.) patrimony (each part of which is officially labeled as worth one euro each)—which the pope cannot legally do.
http://caritasetveritas.com/2013/03/the-myth-of-vatican-wealth-on-helping-the-poor/
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So don't count artistic property as patrimony, because it can't be sold.
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 10 2014 at 12:54
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Moogtron III
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 26 2005
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 10616
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 13:37 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
1.- The Catholic Church is the only Christian Church that doesn't receive tithe (10% of the salary of it's members)
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Great defense, Ivan, but just one tiny detail where I don't agree. The above quoted statement is a dangerous statement to make.  There are many Christian churches in the world, and you don't know the situation of all of them. In Protestant Churches (the churches where I have first hand information) there are many denominations where there isn't tithe. The situation of the different denominations sometimes differs per country too.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19535
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 14:13 |
Moogtron III wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
1.- The Catholic Church is the only Christian Church that doesn't receive tithe (10% of the salary of it's members)
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Great defense, Ivan, but just one tiny detail where I don't agree. The above quoted statement is a dangerous statement to make. There are many Christian churches in the world, and you don't know the situation of all of them. In Protestant Churches (the churches where I have first hand information) there are many denominations where there isn't tithe. The situation of the different denominations sometimes differs per country too. |
You are right, but lets be honest, most of the churches that don't tithe are catholics (Roman, Orthodox and Anglicans)
I've been checking
1.- All Evangelical churches receive compulsory tithe 2.- All Pentecostal Churches receive compulsory tithe 3.- Lutherans and Presbyterians accept tithe, but it's not compulsory 4.- Baptists receive tithe and it's compulsory 5.- Almost all Protestant churches accept tithe, but the percentage varies. 6.- Jehovah Witness don't tithe formally, but they aren't really Christians (They don't believe Christ is God), and a great percentage of the JW inherit all their properties to their church. 7.- Orthodox don't tithe, but as you know they are Catholics 8.- Anglicans don't tithe, but they are also Catholics 9.- Oriental Churches don't tithe, but they joined the Roman catholic Church.
There are a few small protestant churches that don't tithe because the Bible says that the tithe is exclusively of agriculture products and they aren't allowed to receive money.
Iván
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Moogtron III
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 26 2005
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 10616
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 14:32 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Moogtron III wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
1.- The Catholic Church is the only Christian Church that doesn't receive tithe (10% of the salary of it's members)
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Great defense, Ivan, but just one tiny detail where I don't agree. The above quoted statement is a dangerous statement to make. There are many Christian churches in the world, and you don't know the situation of all of them. In Protestant Churches (the churches where I have first hand information) there are many denominations where there isn't tithe. The situation of the different denominations sometimes differs per country too. |
You are right, but lets be honest, most of the churches that don't tithe are catholics (Roman, Orthodox and Anglicans)
I've been checking
1.- All Evangelical churches receive compulsory tithe 2.- All Pentecostal Churches receive compulsory tithe 3.- Lutherans and Presbyterians accept tithe, but it's not compulsory 4.- Baptists receive tithe and it's compulsory 5.- Almost all Protestant churches accept tithe, but the percentage varies. 6.- Jehovah Witness don't tithe formally, but they aren't really Christians (They don't believe Christ is God), and a great percentage of the JW inherit all their properties to their church. 7.- Orthodox don't tithe, but as you know they are Catholics 8.- Anglicans don't tithe, but they are also Catholics 9.- Oriental Churches don't tithe, but they joined the Roman catholic Church.
There are a few small protestant churches that don't tithe because the Bible says that the tithe is exclusively of agriculture products and they aren't allowed to receive money.
Iván |
Okay, I admit, I was being a bit too literal here. In the global sense you are right. Tithing is literally giving tenths, but tithing in the broader sense of the word is a different thing, the percentage varies as you say, I was being a literalist. Mind you, they didn't teach me that in the law school that I attended, it's a personal trait I have to fight against 
Also, I speak from my own experience, and I admit that it is mainly limited to the Netherlands (my country of birth) and Belgium (where I live and work for the past ten years). Small countries in the world, of course. In Belgium we have a unique situation, that all the pastors of the recognized religions (Roman-Catholic church, Protestant Church, Anglican church, Orthodox Church, Judaism and islam) are being payed by the federal state (me too) and the buildings are being subsidized by the local governments (cities). In the Netherlands, it's a total different thing. Many protestant churches have appointed voluntary contributions, which is not unlike tithing, I admit. Still, many, many people don't tithe, and it is not as strict as in many evangelical and pentecostal churches, where it is often seen as a biblical obligation.
But your point is taken, I see what you mean.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13261
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 14:51 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Moogtron III wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
1.- The Catholic Church is the only Christian Church that doesn't receive tithe (10% of the salary of it's members)
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Great defense, Ivan, but just one tiny detail where I don't agree. The above quoted statement is a dangerous statement to make. There are many Christian churches in the world, and you don't know the situation of all of them. In Protestant Churches (the churches where I have first hand information) there are many denominations where there isn't tithe. The situation of the different denominations sometimes differs per country too. |
You are right, but lets be honest, most of the churches that don't tithe are catholics (Roman, Orthodox and Anglicans)
I've been checking
1.- All Evangelical churches receive compulsory tithe 2.- All Pentecostal Churches receive compulsory tithe 3.- Lutherans and Presbyterians accept tithe, but it's not compulsory 4.- Baptists receive tithe and it's compulsory 5.- Almost all Protestant churches accept tithe, but the percentage varies. 6.- Jehovah Witness don't tithe formally, but they aren't really Christians (They don't believe Christ is God), and a great percentage of the JW inherit all their properties to their church. 7.- Orthodox don't tithe, but as you know they are Catholics 8.- Anglicans don't tithe, but they are also Catholics 9.- Oriental Churches don't tithe, but they joined the Roman catholic Church.
There are a few small protestant churches that don't tithe because the Bible says that the tithe is exclusively of agriculture products and they aren't allowed to receive money.
Iván |
Ivan, as I hope you are aware, I am generally more sympathetic to your views than many here when it comes to your beliefs, but I will point out a couple of truths here.
The Anglican Church is a Protestant church. It grew out of the Reformation in England.
The Orthodox churches split from the Roman Catholic Church in the 10th century. The Great Schism.
The tithe in Britain, where the established church is Protestant, as far as I am aware, was ended as a statutory duty in the 19th century.
I wasn't going to contribute much to these threads. As I posted elsewhere, I find evangelical atheists as pointless as religious ones, but historical fact, when we are talking about our beliefs. Is, I believe, very important.
The main point, though, is, what possible business is it of an Atheist where those lovely images you posted of the Cathedral in Lima come from? The post was designed to provoke you, and you responded true to form. Ignore it and them. You will never reach an accommodation with them.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 15:32 |
lazland wrote:
Ivan, as I hope you are aware, I am generally more sympathetic to your views than many here when it comes to your beliefs, but I will point out a couple of truths here.
The Anglican Church is a Protestant church. It grew out of the Reformation in England. |
The Anglican Church is catholic, and didn't grew from the reformation Laz.
Henry the VIII was the defender of the Catholic Church, and they consider themselves Catholics
| What is the difference between Anglicanism and Roman Catholicism?
In many respects, there are no differences between the two churches. They are both Christian churches, springing from the same ancient source as the Eastern Orthodox churches. As such, Anglicans and Roman Catholics read the Bible with not only the two Testaments but also the Apocrypha, those books of the Hebrew Bible written in Greek. Both churches recite the Nicene and Apostles Creeds. Both administer Baptism and Confirmation, and celebrate the Holy Communion, as well as the four other sacramental rites of Penance, Matrimony, Anointing of the Sick, and Holy Orders. Their clergy are ordained deacon first, then priest, unless they are called to be perpetual deacons. From the priests bishops are chosen and consecrated by no fewer than three bishops belonging to a scrupulously conserved line of bishops that reaches back to the earliest churches. There are Roman Catholic and Anglican shrines to Mary. Some Anglicans pray the rosary. Both churches maintain calendars of saints, with special prayers and readings for their feast days. Both churches have orders of men and women religious, vowed celibates who live in monasteries and convents. If you were to visit an Anglican parish (they both use the term for a congregation) and then a Roman Catholic parish, you would observe many other similarities. In the United States, at least, the liturgies are almost identical, as are the customary vestments worn by the clergy and lay assisting ministers. The differences are in the details, for the most part. These differences flow from one central issue: who is in authority. The Roman Catholic Church has over the centuries steadily increased the power and prestige of the Pope, the Bishop of Rome. In our day, the combination of an extraordinarily gifted pope, John Paul II, with the mass media and globalization, have raised the office of pope to its highest level ever. The peripatetic pontiff has traveled far more than any of his predecessors. When he visits a country, it is to speak, not to listen, however. His bishops around the world act more as his prefects than as overseers of the regional Christian community. St Augustine's famous saying, Roma locuta causa finita est (Rome has spoken and that settles the matter) has never been more true than today.
http://anglicansonline.org/resources/essays/whalon/AngRC-diffEng.html
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As a fact the Ordinariate allows Anglican Priests to enter to the Roman Catholic Church keepin their marriage.
The Protestants are iconoclasts and don't worship Maru, don't have the seven sacraments, so the Anglicans are fully Catholics.
Lazland wrote:
The Orthodox churches split from the Roman Catholic Church in the 10th century. The Great Schism |
Yes, we know that (In Birmingham Alabama I attended to an Orthodox Church, because the Roman Catholic was too far from where i lived, being that we are allowed to do so), but since the Uniata (Uniate), many Orthodox Churches have reunited accepting the Pope's authority.
So the situation is far more complex
Lazland wrote:
The tithe in Britain, where the established church is Protestant, as far as I am aware, was ended as a statutory duty in the 19th century. |
That I leave ti you Laz, not so familiar with the historical facts, I just know they don't accept tithe today
Lazland wrote:
I wasn't going to contribute much to these threads. As I posted elsewhere, I find evangelical atheists as pointless as religious ones, but historical fact, when we are talking about our beliefs. Is, I believe, very important. |
I thank your contribution, it's very interesting to learn some facts i don't know.
I studied theology in the university parallel to my career and history, but never went for the full degree, so there are facts I'm not familiar from smaller churches.
Plus you know, there are more than 50,000 small Protestant and evangelical churches, cults and/opr sects, and this changes every day, so there's no way to keep updated-
Lazland wrote:
The main point, though, is, what possible business is it of an Atheist where those lovely images you posted of the Cathedral in Lima come from? The post was designed to provoke you, and you responded true to form. Ignore it and them. You will never reach an accommodation with them. |
I honestly have the greatest of respects for the big and formal Protestant churches, the Jews, Moslems, Budgists and almost every religion. In Jerusalem I prayed in the Mosque and the Synagogue as well as the Basilica of the Holy Sepulcher because I promised my mentor to do that in respect for the God of Abraham.
But as you, I can't accept those who want throw us their believes in our faces and attack us. I believe religion and atheism is a free choice (My two closest friends are atheist and Agnostic), so anybody who wants to force us to do something make me sick, no matter if religious or atheist.
But we have been silent for decades, we received coward attacks, and I'm not willing to accept them anymore, most Protestant Churches are respectable, as Billy Graham said, there is much more that unites us that what separates us, but mainly evangelical churches are in a battle to get more converse, a bad habit that belligerent atheists have learned well.
Cheers
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 10 2014 at 15:37
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aapatsos
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 15:32 |
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Not sure how you define the term "catholic" here. If it is what the Catholic Church is now, this is very different from what the Orthodox Church tradition - which is largely the Byzantine tradition (i.e. the Eastern Roman Church). If, of course, you mean Catholic in the context of the Gospel then I agree.
This tithe thing - I was not aware that this is going on, the only place I have met this is in the Gospel, i.e. the Jews contributing 10% of their income.
Interesting discussion.
EDIT: just read the last post, got what you mean
Edited by aapatsos - February 10 2014 at 15:34
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Points: 19535
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 15:59 |
aapatsos wrote:
Not sure how you define the term "catholic" here. If it is what the Catholic Church is now, this is very different from what the Orthodox Church tradition - which is largely the Byzantine tradition (i.e. the Eastern Roman Church). If, of course, you mean Catholic in the context of the Gospel then I agree.
This tithe thing - I was not aware that this is going on, the only place I have met this is in the Gospel, i.e. the Jews contributing 10% of their income.
Interesting discussion.
EDIT: just read the last post, got what you mean
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The tithe was supposed to be only in agricultural products, because the Rabi had to eat, but not to be the richest man in a country.
[Deuteronomy 26]{26:1} “And when you will have entered into the land which the Lord your God will give to you to possess, and when you will have obtained it and are living within it:
{26:2} you shall take the first of all your crops, and place them in a basket, and you shall travel to the place which the Lord your God will choose, so that his name may be invoked there.
{26:3} And you shall approach the priest who will be in those days, and you shall say to him: ‘I profess this day, before the Lord your God, that I have entered into the land about which he swore to our fathers that he would give it to us.’ |
Now it has changed, some guys as the Bishop Macedo from the "Pare de Sufrir" Evangelical Church in Brazil has gained a fortune of 1.1 Billion dollars FOR HIM all from the tithe of the poorest
| Edir Macedo Bezerra (born February 18, 1945) is a Brazilian religious leader of strong anti-communist bias,[1][2] businessman and the chairman and owner of the second-largest television network Rede Record since 1989 with its parent Central Record de Comunicaçăo who also founded after he bought the network. Macedo was raised Catholic, but by 1970 converted to a Pentecostal. He founded with others the "Neo-Pentecostal"Universal Church of the Kingdom of God in Rio de Janeiro state, Brazil in 1977. His rapidly growing religious movement and his teaching of the prosperity theology have been a source of controversy. His views about other faiths, particularly Catholicism, are also controversial. In 1992, he spent eleven days in jail on accusations of charlatanism. There were several protests, with his religious followers camping in front of the place he was held (a police precinct) as he confirms it in his autobiography "Nothing to Lose".[3] According to Forbes and Business Week he is continuously involved in scandals, mostly due to allegations that the UCKG illegally channelled donations of billions of US dollars intended for charity overseas, then returned the money to Brazil where, according to Săo Paulo's public prosecutor, there was evidence that it was used in the personal interests of the church leaders, including Macedo, being accused. There have also been official charges of fraud and money laundering.As of January 2013 Macedo was still under prosecution by US and Venezuelan authorities. In March 2013 Macedo was on the Forbes billionaires list with a reported US$1.1 billion |
This is where the suposedly millionare Pope sleeps
A comfortable but modest bedroom LEND to him.
This is where Obispo Macedo (Pare de Sufrir Evangelical Church) sleeps http://forums.tibiabr.com/showthread.php?235384-Fotos-da-casa-do-bispo-Edir-Macedo!-Olha-pra-onde-o-seu-dinheiro-vai-)#.UvlMkGJ5OSo
All "apparently" with the money of the poorest people in Brazil.
That's not what the Bible intended with the tithe.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 10 2014 at 16:06
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13261
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 16:06 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
lazland wrote:
Ivan, as I hope you are aware, I am generally more sympathetic to your views than many here when it comes to your beliefs, but I will point out a couple of truths here.
The Anglican Church is a Protestant church. It grew out of the Reformation in England. |
The Anglican Church is catholic, and didn't grew from the reformation Laz.
Henry the VIII was the defender of the Catholic Church, and they consider themselves Catholics
| What is the difference between Anglicanism and Roman Catholicism?
In many respects, there are no differences between the two churches. They are both Christian churches, springing from the same ancient source as the Eastern Orthodox churches. As such, Anglicans and Roman Catholics read the Bible with not only the two Testaments but also the Apocrypha, those books of the Hebrew Bible written in Greek. Both churches recite the Nicene and Apostles Creeds. Both administer Baptism and Confirmation, and celebrate the Holy Communion, as well as the four other sacramental rites of Penance, Matrimony, Anointing of the Sick, and Holy Orders. Their clergy are ordained deacon first, then priest, unless they are called to be perpetual deacons. From the priests bishops are chosen and consecrated by no fewer than three bishops belonging to a scrupulously conserved line of bishops that reaches back to the earliest churches. There are Roman Catholic and Anglican shrines to Mary. Some Anglicans pray the rosary. Both churches maintain calendars of saints, with special prayers and readings for their feast days. Both churches have orders of men and women religious, vowed celibates who live in monasteries and convents. If you were to visit an Anglican parish (they both use the term for a congregation) and then a Roman Catholic parish, you would observe many other similarities. In the United States, at least, the liturgies are almost identical, as are the customary vestments worn by the clergy and lay assisting ministers. The differences are in the details, for the most part. These differences flow from one central issue: who is in authority. The Roman Catholic Church has over the centuries steadily increased the power and prestige of the Pope, the Bishop of Rome. In our day, the combination of an extraordinarily gifted pope, John Paul II, with the mass media and globalization, have raised the office of pope to its highest level ever. The peripatetic pontiff has traveled far more than any of his predecessors. When he visits a country, it is to speak, not to listen, however. His bishops around the world act more as his prefects than as overseers of the regional Christian community. St Augustine's famous saying, Roma locuta causa finita est (Rome has spoken and that settles the matter) has never been more true than today.
http://anglicansonline.org/resources/essays/whalon/AngRC-diffEng.html
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As a fact the Ordinariate allows Anglican Priests to enter to the Roman Catholic Church keepin their marriage.
The Protestants are iconoclasts and don't worship Maru, don't have the seven sacraments, so the Anglicans are fully Catholics.
Lazland wrote:
The Orthodox churches split from the Roman Catholic Church in the 10th century. The Great Schism |
Yes, we know that (In Birmingham Alabama I attended to an Orthodox Church, because the Roman Catholic was too far from where i lived, being that we are allowed to do so), but since the Uniata (Uniate), many Orthodox Churches have reunited accepting the Pope's authority.
So the situation is far more complex
Lazland wrote:
The tithe in Britain, where the established church is Protestant, as far as I am aware, was ended as a statutory duty in the 19th century. |
That I leave ti you Laz, not so familiar with the historical facts, I just know they don't accept tithe today
Lazland wrote:
I wasn't going to contribute much to these threads. As I posted elsewhere, I find evangelical atheists as pointless as religious ones, but historical fact, when we are talking about our beliefs. Is, I believe, very important. |
I thank your contribution, it's very interesting to learn some facts i don't know.
I studied theology in the university parallel to my career and history, but never went for the full degree, so there are facts I'm not familiar from smaller churches.
Plus you know, there are more than 50,000 small Protestant and evangelical churches, cults and/opr sects, and this changes every day, so there's no way to keep updated-
Lazland wrote:
The main point, though, is, what possible business is it of an Atheist where those lovely images you posted of the Cathedral in Lima come from? The post was designed to provoke you, and you responded true to form. Ignore it and them. You will never reach an accommodation with them. |
I honestly have the greatest of respects for the big and formal Protestant churches, the Jews, Moslems, Budgists and almost every religion. In Jerusalem I prayed in the Mosque and the Synagogue as well as the Basilica of the Holy Sepulcher because I promised my mentor to do that in respect for the God of Abraham.
But as you, I can't accept those who want throw us their believes in our faces and attack us. I believe religion and atheism is a free choice (My two closest friends are atheist and Agnostic), so anybody who wants to force us to do something make me sick, no matter if religious or atheist.
But we have been silent for decades, we received coward attacks, and I'm not willing to accept them anymore, most Protestant Churches are respectable, as Billy Graham said, there is much more that unites us that what separates us, but mainly evangelical churches are in a battle to get more converse, a bad habit that belligerent atheists have learned well.
Cheers
Iván
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Thanks Ivan.
I am off to bed shortly, so will not respond to all. So, just a couple of quick points.
If by Catholic, you mean the Universal Church, then I am very happy to agree with you re your main points about Orthodox and Anglican. Indeed, the last post in the thread saw this as well.
I do absolutely agree with you about the belligerence of atheists. I have said before that I have become a little less of a believer as I have grown older, and I genuinely regret that. I do, though, have a very open mind, and took the trouble to read Dawkins, our most (in)famous atheist. I find his love of biblical language and culture wholly genuine, but the way he, and very much others who have followed him recently, has sought to make atheism almost a new religion in its profound dislike and attacks on religious beliefs makes me extremely uncomfortable. Those discussions are, of course, rather mirrored in these threads on PA.
I passionately believe that religion should be separated from state politics. I also passionately believe that those of us who profess to believe should be allowed to do so without fear of persecution or ridicule. That does not mean that we should not accept the failings of the church we belong to, far from it. With learning comes a sense of maturity, and I think, an opportunity to come closer to God. Many scientists have said the same thing - the more they learn, the more they have faith that there is more than mere facts and physics. Also, I rather think that the new Pope could, if he lives long enough, transform the church in the way that John XXIII wanted to, but ran out of time to do so. We need a new Vatican Council, I believe, to take on the work of the second to its natural progression.
Many will ridicule me for saying this. I care not.
Nos Da (good night).
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 17:01 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
This is where the suposedly millionare Pope sleeps
A comfortable but modest bedroom LEND to him.
This is where Obispo Macedo (Pare de Sufrir Evangelical Church) sleeps http://forums.tibiabr.com/showthread.php?235384-Fotos-da-casa-do-bispo-Edir-Macedo!-Olha-pra-onde-o-seu-dinheiro-vai-)#.UvlMkGJ5OSo
All "apparently" with the money of the poorest people in Brazil.
That's not what the Bible intended with the tithe.
Iván
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1. Remarkable what the current Pope is doing and he might be able to bring more believers into your Church Ivan precisely by breaking with some of the things of the past.
2. Remarkable bad taste of the room below. 
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
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Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
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Points: 19535
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 18:54 |
You know, I collect antiques and my parents worked in antiques all their lives, my mother is an expert.
I know, the room has the style of a new rich, but it's expensive
- He has three Boulle cabinets, at least US$ 15,000 each one - Two Boulle side bed $ 7,500 each one - The mirror, maybe 20 grand - The bed is a nightmare, but easily 4 or 5 grand - Two marble pillars, distatasteful but at least 5 grand each - The two chairs and foot furniture are modern imitations but still very expensive, let's say 5 grand
We only see 50% of the room and it's worth morre or less US$ 65,000.00
But the site http://www.taringa.net/posts/info/9852888/Conoces-la-casa-del-obispo-de-la-iglesia-pare-de-sufrir.html also shows us this:
The Chimney is invaluable, probably brought from an European house or castle
Another site http://www.dogguie.net/la-presunta-mansion-de-edir-macedo/ shows:
She believes we are before at least 3 millions in furniture and marble
Without counting the house itself
And people don't speak about this.
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
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Points: 17493
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Posted: February 10 2014 at 19:25 |
^Because that guy is unknown outside of the little circle that follows his particular cult. I know he is part of a larger thing but since there is no monolithic church in charge of the other Christian religions, it's quite difficult to keep track of all the scammers and buffoons out there preaching nonsense and making themselves rich. Evangelism seems to be a pretty good business. If I had the magic touch I might become an evangelist myself  .
The Catholic Church rather difficult history and the fact that is easily identifiable makes it an easier target.
Edited by The T - February 10 2014 at 19:30
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silverpot
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: March 19 2008
Location: Sweden
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Points: 841
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Posted: February 11 2014 at 08:30 |
Taste is obviously something that money can´t buy.
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