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Dick Heath View Drop Down
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Points: 12802 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Album length - the standards
    Posted: March 31 2009 at 05:43
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Another point to note is that album length does not necessarily expand to fill the currently popular medium - at the height of compact cassette popularity album length remained around the 40 minute mark, even though cassettes were out-selling vinyl and could contain 90 or 120 minutes of music.
 
I do believe I read in the late 70's that one US cassette manufacturer, having surveyed the average length of an LP  and actually sold C42.5 cassettes - even though few album were really 42 and half minutes long. I don't imagine those cassettes were on the market for long.......
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Points: 1698 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2009 at 23:48
Originally posted by Dick Heath Dick Heath wrote:

Originally posted by topofsm topofsm wrote:

I think you'd have to look at the classical music in the past, where there was still the idea that a musical piece can be any length. After browsing through my classical collection, there are suites and symphonies that usually range from 20 minutes to an hour and a half. Most are around 40 minutes, which was around standard LP time length. It would appear that you are mostly correct around the time.

Another factor I think we should consider is today we can listen to music wherever, and in the 70's you were able to listen to a record and multitask too. Orchestral music basically had to pass a test by entertaining an audience remaining silent and just sitting there doing nothing else back then. If something went on too long back then and had padded music, it wasn't good for the composer based on audience reviews. I guess 40 minutes was a good safe length. Today people can do whatever, so length really doesn't matter unless your audience is attentive and active listeners to music like us.
 
*puts on the ring cycle*


The story goes when Sony were deciding on the size of a CD, they asked their President, who replied: 'long enough to fit my favourite recording of Beethoven's 9th Symphony' - which happened to be approx 70 minutes long..
 

What an odd view you have of the 70's....(LOL)
 
I should have said you could multitask in the 70's as long as you're around the record player. That leaves for a lot of stuff. Desk work, lots of stuff hanging out with friends, cards and pool I guess. If you turned it up way loud you could do basically anything around the house listening to it.
 
However, you really don't get to do anything else in a concert hall.

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Points: 15745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 18:01
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

There's nothin' like a really kickass 35 minute album.Wink


Indeed!

Kick-ass 35 minute albums = Deep Purple

Wink
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Points: 5208 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 18:00
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

There's nothin' like a really kickass 35 minute album.Wink
 
I don't detect a tone of cynicism in your voice, do I?



I don't think so.  I really like an album that doesn't overstay its welcome.  Now when its The Wall, as Micah points out, that's great.  But there are so many lame 75 minute albums out there that might be much better at 40 minutes. 
 
Bad attempt at a joke. Cynic's Traced in Air is about 35 minutes.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 17:54
Another point to note is that album length does not necessarily expand to fill the currently popular medium - at the height of compact cassette popularity album length remained around the 40 minute mark, even though cassettes were out-selling vinyl and could contain 90 or 120 minutes of music.

Edited by Dean - March 28 2009 at 17:56
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Points: 16913 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 17:50
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

There's nothin' like a really kickass 35 minute album.Wink
 
I don't detect a tone of cynicism in your voice, do I?



I don't think so.  I really like an album that doesn't overstay its welcome.  Now when its The Wall, as Micah points out, that's great.  But there are so many lame 75 minute albums out there that might be much better at 40 minutes. 

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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 17:49
^ Hard Days Night is 30 mins (the 5" spool is show partially full) - it's length was still restricted by vinyl technology. A full 5" tape spool could contain 48 minutes of music, and larger reels had double and quadruple that length. Since vinyl was the standard, that dictated album length. In principle tape could have lengths exceeding 3 hours, but since it was the prefered medium of audiophiles, they usually recorded at higher speeds which resulted reduced play-lengths. Pre-recorded tape never caught on because the audiphiles did not like the quality of 3¼ ips recordings -  if the record labels had released albums on 10½" tape recorded at 7½ ips then the default album length would have been 96 minutes.
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Points: 4900 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 17:43
I think it depends, obviousely, based on the unique story of the artist of that particular record. But in general I agree with Jay in that it really isn't about the length, rather it is about the listenign experience itself, and I think that an album can potentially lose some of its punch if allowed to rant on for too long.
 
Basically, I go by the old notion that quality is much more important than quantity, and as such, there are some occasions where a longer record can indeed hold my interest from start to finish, but in most situations the overall experience is much more fruitful when it is kept short and sweet, as it were. I make exceptions like anybody else, because I think albums like The Wall, for instance, are masterful works despite their length.
 
This is an issue that is now directly affecting me since I have recently decided to record an album, and Ii'm always apprehensive about how long the final cut will end up being. Hopefully, though, I will be able to find a comfortable running time so that it will satisfy myself and all those who are also involved in it (Jay and Alex, that means you, too).
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Points: 5208 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 17:40
Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

There's nothin' like a really kickass 35 minute album.Wink
 
I don't detect a tone of cynicism in your voice, do I?
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Points: 5208 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 17:39
Legend is that the standard length of many classical works was limited by the length of burn on candles that were used on huge, multi candle chandeliers in concert halls.
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Points: 16913 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 17:24
There's nothin' like a really kickass 35 minute album.Wink

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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 16:58
One other medium we've not considered is reel to reel tape.
 
 
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Dick Heath View Drop Down
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Points: 12802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 16:46
Originally posted by topofsm topofsm wrote:

I think you'd have to look at the classical music in the past, where there was still the idea that a musical piece can be any length. After browsing through my classical collection, there are suites and symphonies that usually range from 20 minutes to an hour and a half. Most are around 40 minutes, which was around standard LP time length. It would appear that you are mostly correct around the time.

Another factor I think we should consider is today we can listen to music wherever, and in the 70's you were able to listen to a record and multitask too. Orchestral music basically had to pass a test by entertaining an audience remaining silent and just sitting there doing nothing else back then. If something went on too long back then and had padded music, it wasn't good for the composer based on audience reviews. I guess 40 minutes was a good safe length. Today people can do whatever, so length really doesn't matter unless your audience is attentive and active listeners to music like us.
 
*puts on the ring cycle*


The story goes when Sony were deciding on the size of a CD, they asked their President, who replied: 'long enough to fit my favourite recording of Beethoven's 9th Symphony' - which happened to be approx 70 minutes long..
 

What an odd view you have of the 70's....(LOL)
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Points: 1698 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2009 at 02:25

I think you'd have to look at the classical music in the past, where there was still the idea that a musical piece can be any length. After browsing through my classical collection, there are suites and symphonies that usually range from 20 minutes to an hour and a half. Most are around 40 minutes, which was around standard LP time length. It would appear that you are mostly correct around the time.

Another factor I think we should consider is today we can listen to music wherever, and in the 70's you were able to listen to a record and multitask too. Orchestral music basically had to pass a test by entertaining an audience remaining silent and just sitting there doing nothing else back then. If something went on too long back then and had padded music, it wasn't good for the composer based on audience reviews. I guess 40 minutes was a good safe length. Today people can do whatever, so length really doesn't matter unless your audience is attentive and active listeners to music like us.
 
*puts on the ring cycle*

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Points: 12802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2009 at 14:44
[quote]
Now it is technically possible to record and release a track of any length - I would certainly like to see someone break the 78 minute barrier for a single track.
[quote]

In some respects this has been true for quite some time. In 1938 the legendary Carnegie Hall Concerts by Benny Goodman were recorded direct cut onto discs 1 yard in diameter, but it was until only a few years ago, some of the 10 to 15 minute long pieces got released for domestic play. Similarly radio recordings were direct cut recorded on to very large discs. I've just discovered the extended Jazz  At The Philharmonic jams with Les Paul and Nat King Cole, recorded 1942 - it is a real ear-opener to realise what we thought of as a musical expression of the 70's and later, had been happening for most of the history jazz when played live, and some of what was/is heard in rock had been done 2 or 3 decades before.
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Points: 12802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2009 at 13:22
Why start with LPs, go to 78rpm discs where technological and material limitations meant you were lucky to get 3 minutes per side on a 12" disc.
 
LPs can carry a relative full human audible sound range (remembering this is an analogue mechanical encoding in the form of a single continuous groove - unless one of those Monty Python LPs), if kept to 15 minutes or less per side. Microgrooving permitted a longer recording to be packed on each side. However, top and bottom frequencies had to be clipped to fit that mechanical signal onto one side of a 12" disc, compression was often used and therefore full audible frequency range was sacrificed, whilst the recording could sound comparatively quiet.  (Todd Rundgren's Initiation managed over 30 minutes a side - but with that rare  warning, to copy the LP on to cassette before early wear affect audio quality).  Also stereophonic recordings, especially of non-classical recordings,  really didn't off until the middle to late 60's (e.g. Buddy Holly was never recorded in stereo) - many stereo releases of pre-65 recordings didn't appear until the late 60's.
 
One way of increasing the length of a recording was to play back at 16rpm - in the 60's and 70's many spoken word recordings (plays, poetry) were released on 16rpm discs - although high fidelity was normally worse than a 33 and third rpm disc. And then apart from the almost obligatory compression, a number of 12" singles released in the 80's and 90's, usually played at 45rpm sounded pretty good.
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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2009 at 20:04
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
Now it is technically possible to record and release a track of any length - I would certainly like to see someone break the 78 minute barrier for a single track.
 
Check Monolithe records




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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2009 at 16:57

An album is just a collection of tracks contained on whatever media is available at the time - there was no limit on how many discs were contained in the album so the final length has never been restricted by any medium as such - Yessongs (1973) is a staggering 130 minutes, Welcome Back My Friends To The Show That Never Ends (1974) was almost 110 minutes long ... admittedly those are both live albums, but for studio productions Godley & Creme's Consequences (1977) was also 110 minutes, Tales From Topographic Oceans (1973) was 81 minutes and Soft Machine 3 (1971) was 75 minutes.

With the shift from CD to downloads, the concept of albums that are just an anthology of short tracks will change, with people simply buying the tracks they want, rather than the whole "collection"
 
For me, the most noticable thing about the change in media from LP to CD was the advent of the really long single track - something very few artists have actualy done... Green Carnation's Light of Day (60min) is the first that springs to mind, and DT's Six Degrees song (42min). I recall an interview with Mike Oldfield back in the 70s where he said one of his frustrations with Tubby Bells, Hergest Ridge and Ommadawn was you had to stop midway through to turn it over, yet we had to wait until 1990 for him to release a 60 minute track (Amarok).
 
Now it is technically possible to record and release a track of any length - I would certainly like to see someone break the 78 minute barrier for a single track.
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Points: 130 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2009 at 15:59
CD releases are still prominent enough that albums are generally still constrained to 80 minutes in most cases.

My personal preferred album length is about 50 minutes, though I love (full-length) albums that range from 20 minutes to 120 or so.

Once/if the shift to digital is complete, then artists will indeed be free to release "albums" of whatever length they want, which to some extent is good, because it removes the pressure to fill up a specific time length.
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Points: 4373 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2009 at 15:48
The lack of limits associated with digital music give the artist and the listener quite a bit of leeway. If an artist wants to release a 30 minute batch of tunes or a 200 minute doozy, he/she isn't constrained by the physical limits of any particular format. Then again, the listener has the ability to stick those into a digital library, thereby subsuming the music into a massive heap of tracks. Both of these factors help undermine the traditional notion of an "album." However, that doesn't mean the album is necessarilly dead. Artists can still choose to release 40 minutes worth of music and listeners can dutifully sit through that artitic statement. At this point, sticking to the album format becomes a choice rather than a necessity imposed by a physical format.
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