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meurglys0 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Pentacle lyrics - What do they mean?
    Posted: April 30 2009 at 06:31
 I managed to find Pentacle's lyrics. But I don't know French and with online translators such as Google-translate one can only get a glimpse of the meanings of the songs. If someone who knows French can give a one-sentence explanation for these songs I'd really appreciate it. What I'm really curious about is whether these songs contain lyrics that deal with religion/god like Ange's lyrics; for instance the track titled COMPLOT, is it an anti-religious song?

Thanks in advance for your replies...


Pentacle - La Clef des Songes (1975)

LA CLEF DES SONGES (4:06)

(Music by Claude MENETRIER and lyrics by Richard TREIBER)


Songez à ceux qui disaient d'un soupir Heureux les malheureux ça peut-être pire leurs têtes un jour furent mises à prix Dans un fracas les nôtres tombèrent.

On m'a pourtant donné jadis l'espoir de pouvoir espérer
En fait d'espoir comme une épave Au petit matin, j'ai sombré
"Vil coquin, coquin de sort"
Tu as laissé mourir mon corps Ce corps épris d'un grand amour De la passion mais pas du corps.
J'imagine le temps d'une pensée Le minois que ferait le roi
En voyant les rôles s'inverser S'entendre dire vôtez pour moi

En voyant s'évanouir le règne Qui faisait vibrer mes entrailles Mille foudres se déchaînent en toi Toi le roi qui n'a plus de toit
"Vil coquin, coquin de sort"

NAUFRAGE (4:27)
(Music by Gérard RUEZ and lyrics by Michel ROY)

Quand même l'envie de faire l'amour soudain passe Que le bon vin en ce jour vous fait si mal
Alors l'envie de s'éclater hante les rêves d'un Corps qui divague
Quand vient la nuit, que le jour meurt
On attend le matin comme le messie
Aux temps amèrs de temps en temps, Je passais mon temps
A contempler l'oiseau, la mer
Et ce vent du Dieu
Mais le temps passe, la fin approche
Pourtant je m'accroche
Comme une feuille après la vie
Juste avant l'automne

En ce temps-là, dame nature était Vêtue d'un manteau de passion Et dans le ciel, on pouvait voir
Un monde irréel au couleur du temps
Douce illusion, breuvage d'un monde Aux reflets obscurs
Frappe mon être et nourris-le de Ton doux passé

L'AME DU GUERRIER (6:06)
(Music by Michel ROY and lyrics by Richard TREIBER)


J'aurais jadis, mené sans pitié
Pour une armure, un beau casque et une épée Malgré les pleurs, ma mère au bûcher
C'était hier, je baignais dans l'irréel

Sur mon beau cheval, tout vêtu de blanc Je partais l'âme en fête prendre l'univers

Je poursuivis à travers le temps
Le seul rival qui toujours virait de bord Comme un navire en pleine détresse
En cet instant, quelque chose en moi dérive

Emporté par la gloire, je sens le naufrage
Ce fut la mort dans l'âme, qu'en vain je sombrai

Après la fête, comme un feu de joie
La flamme d'orgueil qui brûlait en moi se meurt Me fait songer avant de languir
Car aujourd'hui, au soir de la vie passée

Je reviens l'âme en peine du pays des rêves Sur ma vieille monture voûtée par le temps

C'était hier, j'étais sans pitié
C'était hier, ma mère périt au bûcher Mais aujourd'hui après la bataille
Ma panoplie s'est endormie au musée.

LES PAUVRES (3:25)
(Music by Gérard RUEZ and lyrics by Michel ROY)

Déchirés par la faim, pris de grisaille
Faibles et malsains se consumant comme une paille Perdus en quête d'une faille

Ils sont là, titubants, fossiles d'un autre monde Ils sont là, puants, inondés de peine profonde Meurtris à chaque seconde

Egarés dans la nuit, ils tendent leurs mains Pour cet or qui luit des coffres pleins l'espoir frappé de cécité

Envahis de sommeil, fardeau d'un long jour
Sans sourire, sans soleil, sans l'ombre d'un détour Fleuris de chaleur et d'amour.

COMPLOT (5:01)
(Music by Claude MENETRIER and lyrics by Richard TREIBER)

Du haut de mon rocher, Chez le vieux divin
Que l'on appelle en bas Père des baladins

Moi la bête à bon dieu Je vis de mes yeux
Fille de joie, faisant causette avec un mâle

Emportant la bataille Sur un bien qui râle Des coups du mal

Je me tape la tête Bon dieu, que j'ai mal Mon âme m'entame

Des gouttes d'eau salée Sur des mains ridées Poussées par le passé S'écrasent à mes pieds

Rengaine du temps
Temps d'une vie de damnés Damné je suis, tel un crotale

Du haut de mon rocher Chez les trépassés J'ai vu le mal

Disparaître en fumée Après la bataille Riant du bien.

LE RACONTEUR (10:42)
(Music by Gérard RUEZ and lyrics by Claude MENETRIER)

Au passage du raconteur
Le temps, la nature chantent Une vague douceur
l'emplit de grandeur

l'image de sa sagesse Reflet des temps passés Chef d'oeuvre de richesse Un signe d'odyssée
Dans l'immense cosmos, une étoile s'éteint Venez l'écouter, braves gens Car l'humanité est déjà poussière l'orgueil humain a fait son temps

Allez, bonnes gens, sur la plaine Vous oublierez toutes vos haines Ne soyez pas exigeants
Peuple déshérité

Aujourd'hui, il conte l'histoire
D'un monde appelé la terre Et le raconteur l'achève Pour un voyage éternel

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2009 at 13:33
Hi,
 
In general, even Ange is not "anti-religion" at all ... I find they are way more "spiritual" in their own right ... than we give them credit for.
 
That said ... this is a tough theme to discuss in America, where most people do not see different religions (and I mean DIFFERENT) every hour on the hour ... not to mention different languages and musics and what not.
 
I personally have never thought that Ange, Mona Lisa, or anyone else (specially in France) were blantantly that politically charge to even suggest something like you did. They are, however, "artistes" and one of the things they do extremelly well ... is be an "actor" to the lyrics. This has been a long European tradition and is well represented in the likes of Kurt Weill and then Jacque Brel and of course Ange's singer ... listen to the lond cut (Caricatures) and in the live album ... "ecoute ... ecoute..." ... meaning listen ... listen ... listen ... in other words ... pay attention ...
 
You can hear "Ego et Deus" in Emile Jacotey ... and that is not a blatant disparaging of something that is wrong ... it is more of a desire to get you to make the right choice ... plain and simple. You would be hard pressed to think something else and you don't even have to know the language to get that feeling ... it's that "honest" to its source.
 
In Europe, at least in Paris and London (so to speak) opinions are fine. An idea represented as a concept, or a play, is also good ... America is so into its entertainment that considering anything more serious or a suggestion that there is corruption on Wall St ... will probably get you fired ... which is another story altogether. Funny how tolerance goes ... and sometimes the only tolerance allowed here is the millions that Harry gets SToned gets away with ... and everyone still goes out and buys it ... despite its misguided occultism and fantasized ... take your choice ...
 
The hard part is that France has a very rich artistic history of blatant political works ... and sometimes someone like a Moliere does good to hide a lot of it behind a little fun ... and I certainly think that Jean Paul Sartre (for example) is way more political in a personal way through his work than any of these lyrics are.  But I don't know that many people in this board, ever consider a lot of this, if any, music ... more than just a pop song to pass their days with ... and a lot of people here do not treat (just about) any of these "progressive" groups as anything more than just another bunch of kids that will never know what they are doing ... or its so irrelevant because it is not famous ... or is not as good as Keith Emerson ... you see the difference? It takes away from the music itself ... and there is not enough of an open mind to listen to many other things ... and I tip my hat to your efforts ...
 
In general, in my book, a lot of these singers in Europe take their lyrics a whole lot more seriously than 99% of the music you will ever find in American Idol ... period! Specially when it is their own vision and creativity talking ... it's all a part of the growth over there and the rich artistic, literary and musical tradition ... America has a massive music history but it is buried in the history books ... you will never hear about it in high school and you are lucky to figure that out via a board like this ...
 
It's really all about a respect for your heritage ... and a love for the richness of expression in that heritage.
 
Close your eyes ... see the truth within ... stop looking outside ... it's really simple sometimes.


Edited by moshkito - April 30 2009 at 14:02
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2009 at 18:59
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,
 
In general, even Ange is not "anti-religion" at all ... I find they are way more "spiritual" in their own right ... than we give them credit for.
 
That said ... this is a tough theme to discuss in America, where most people do not see different religions (and I mean DIFFERENT) every hour on the hour ... not to mention different languages and musics and what not.
 
I personally have never thought that Ange, Mona Lisa, or anyone else (specially in France) were blantantly that politically charge to even suggest something like you did. They are, however, "artistes" and one of the things they do extremelly well ... is be an "actor" to the lyrics. This has been a long European tradition and is well represented in the likes of Kurt Weill and then Jacque Brel and of course Ange's singer ... listen to the lond cut (Caricatures) and in the live album ... "ecoute ... ecoute..." ... meaning listen ... listen ... listen ... in other words ... pay attention ...
 
You can hear "Ego et Deus" in Emile Jacotey ... and that is not a blatant disparaging of something that is wrong ... it is more of a desire to get you to make the right choice ... plain and simple. You would be hard pressed to think something else and you don't even have to know the language to get that feeling ... it's that "honest" to its source.
 
In Europe, at least in Paris and London (so to speak) opinions are fine. An idea represented as a concept, or a play, is also good ... America is so into its entertainment that considering anything more serious or a suggestion that there is corruption on Wall St ... will probably get you fired ... which is another story altogether. Funny how tolerance goes ... and sometimes the only tolerance allowed here is the millions that Harry gets SToned gets away with ... and everyone still goes out and buys it ... despite its misguided occultism and fantasized ... take your choice ...
 
The hard part is that France has a very rich artistic history of blatant political works ... and sometimes someone like a Moliere does good to hide a lot of it behind a little fun ... and I certainly think that Jean Paul Sartre (for example) is way more political in a personal way through his work than any of these lyrics are.  But I don't know that many people in this board, ever consider a lot of this, if any, music ... more than just a pop song to pass their days with ... and a lot of people here do not treat (just about) any of these "progressive" groups as anything more than just another bunch of kids that will never know what they are doing ... or its so irrelevant because it is not famous ... or is not as good as Keith Emerson ... you see the difference? It takes away from the music itself ... and there is not enough of an open mind to listen to many other things ... and I tip my hat to your efforts ...
 
In general, in my book, a lot of these singers in Europe take their lyrics a whole lot more seriously than 99% of the music you will ever find in American Idol ... period! Specially when it is their own vision and creativity talking ... it's all a part of the growth over there and the rich artistic, literary and musical tradition ... America has a massive music history but it is buried in the history books ... you will never hear about it in high school and you are lucky to figure that out via a board like this ...
 
It's really all about a respect for your heritage ... and a love for the richness of expression in that heritage.
 
Close your eyes ... see the truth within ... stop looking outside ... it's really simple sometimes.



Thanks for taking the time to write me a reply with so much depth...

I remember reading somewhere Peter Hammill saying something like this: "Our intention was to make music that made sense, when most of the others didn't care much about making sense"... As a mere admirer of music, I'm always on a quest for music that is both good and meaningful. So one of my main concerns in music regards what the songs are about. To be able to appreciate the music fully, I feel the urge to grasp at least the general meanings of the songs when the album in question is not in English. As you have mentioned most people don't care for lyrics or meanings... I regard this kind of approach as watching a film mostly for the effects used etc. and not understanding the dialogues or the plot....

I'm intrested in religions and philosophy in general, so when some music I like contains these themes my interest in trying to understand the lyrics is enhanced.

You absolutely triggered my curiousity by commenting that Ange is not anti-religion at all. What to make of the track titled "Si J'Etais Le Messie" on the Au Delà Du Délire album then? What's your interpretation? For google-translate does not allow me to make non-superficial interpretations...

Also, I'm still curious about the Pentacle song titled COMPLOT... What is it about? Could you help me with it, please?         
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2009 at 19:22
I wish I could help you but I don't speak French. 

I do know that I LOVE this album!!!!!   Big smile

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2009 at 12:15
Originally posted by meurglys0 meurglys0 wrote:

  You absolutely triggered my curiousity by commenting that Ange is not anti-religion at all. What to make of the track titled "Si J'Etais Le Messie" on the Au Delà Du Délire album then? What's your interpretation? For google-translate does not allow me to make non-superficial interpretations... 

Also, I'm still curious about the Pentacle song titled COMPLOT... What is it about? Could you help me with it, please?         
 
I'll take the time and take this home and do a literal translation of the lyrics and then I will interpret them as I see them being sung.
 
AU DELA DU DELIRE is an album exploring the "further side of things" ... and it has in its lyrics several songs about some spiritual things and also some mentions and sentiments about some of the well known names in the psychic/occult fields in european history ,,, the ones that the church was chasing down and making sure they were dead! And there is a  lot ... I mean a LOT ... of literature, stories and writing about many of these in Europe and its rich cultural history.
 
Sort of like saying that I'm into the black arts because I can quote Aleister Crowley ... so what ... many people can quote Shakespeare too! And when it comes to the french, the "artiste" supremacy and superiority  is more important than anything ... political or otherwise ... and that is the history of the french arts ... and who's to say that rock musicians will not continue it? You know they will ... and they HAVE. 


Edited by moshkito - May 08 2009 at 12:23
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2009 at 06:46
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by meurglys0 meurglys0 wrote:

  You absolutely triggered my curiousity by commenting that Ange is not anti-religion at all. What to make of the track titled "Si J'Etais Le Messie" on the Au Delà Du Délire album then? What's your interpretation? For google-translate does not allow me to make non-superficial interpretations... 

Also, I'm still curious about the Pentacle song titled COMPLOT... What is it about? Could you help me with it, please?         
 
I'll take the time and take this home and do a literal translation of the lyrics and then I will interpret them as I see them being sung.
 
AU DELA DU DELIRE is an album exploring the "further side of things" ... and it has in its lyrics several songs about some spiritual things and also some mentions and sentiments about some of the well known names in the psychic/occult fields in european history ,,, the ones that the church was chasing down and making sure they were dead! And there is a  lot ... I mean a LOT ... of literature, stories and writing about many of these in Europe and its rich cultural history.
 
Sort of like saying that I'm into the black arts because I can quote Aleister Crowley ... so what ... many people can quote Shakespeare too! And when it comes to the french, the "artiste" supremacy and superiority  is more important than anything ... political or otherwise ... and that is the history of the french arts ... and who's to say that rock musicians will not continue it? You know they will ... and they HAVE. 


Thanks for your reply. I thought I had configured my forum preferences so that it would notify me of your reply, but it turns out I hadn't... So I apologize for not responding  in time...

I'm thankful for your offer.. I am waiting for your interpretations regarding Pentacle's lyrics!

In fact there ara a lot of albums or songs I come across that I wish there were a discussion group merely for interpreting lyrics... But the French ones are more immediate, as I have only Google-translate as a helper, which isn't much help...

About Ange... I get your point, and you are absolutely right, quoting someone doesn't mean you actually agree with everything he said or did. However  from what I understand, the lyrics of "Si J'Etais Le Messie" is a straight-forward attack on Jesus (or prophets in general), even his mother... Don't you think?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2009 at 10:52
Hi,
 
The title of "Si J'etais le Messie" ... would translate to ...  "If I was the messiah" ... or even "If I were to be the messiah" ... and the lyrics in that song are pretty much about how/what he would do ... and I still don't think that is an attack on Jesus ... although it could be a different kind of dig if they are taking on the apostles ... don't forget one important thing here ... Europe knows and has seen many different translations of the Bible and has a slightly better understanding of it ... although the Catholic Church has done its very best to hide most of these translations for the past 2k years ... and this is something that ... a lot of European artists love to do digs at ... check out the book "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" ... it's a veritable story of France and it goes through so many artists that it's scary! And this is not a novel!
 
Just remember that the French do not consider an opinion an attack, like they do in America ... remember Voltaire ... remember Voltaire .... (here it's always plitically incorrect to say anything about inflated egos) ... duhhh another topic for the song!


Edited by moshkito - May 13 2009 at 10:53
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2009 at 11:40
Hi,
 
Here's my first one ... in three stages
 
Pentacle - La Clef des Songes (1975)
LA CLEF DES SONGES (4:06)
(Music by Claude MENETRIER and lyrics by Richard TREIBER)
 
Songez à ceux qui disaient d'un soupir Heureux les malheureux ça peut-être pire leurs têtes un jour furent mises à prix Dans un fracas les nôtres tombèrent.
On m'a pourtant donné jadis l'espoir de pouvoir espérer
En fait d'espoir comme une épave Au petit matin, j'ai sombré
"Vil coquin, coquin de sort"
Tu as laissé mourir mon corps Ce corps épris d'un grand amour De la passion mais pas du corps.
J'imagine le temps d'une pensée Le minois que ferait le roi
En voyant les rôles s'inverser S'entendre dire vôtez pour moi
En voyant s'évanouir le règne Qui faisait vibrer mes entrailles Mille foudres se déchaînent en toi Toi le roi qui n'a plus de toit
"Vil coquin, coquin de sort"

Literal translation via Yahoo ... with a couple of my own adjustments ...
 
Think of those words by many sighing unhappily that perhaps worse their heads one day had a price on them, and with a crash ... they would fall.
One m' however l' gave formerly; hope to be able to hope In fact d' hope like a wreck In the small hour, I say " Vile rascal, rascal jerk"
You let die my body This body enthusiast d' a great love Of passion but not of the body.
I imagine a time a thought the little face which the king would make
Seeing the roles inverted ; as if intending to say vote for me
By seeing s' to disappear the reign Which made vibrate my entrails the Thousand lightnings unchain in you it king who n' more roof has
Vile rascal, rascal jerk ...
 
 
And here is my own way of saying this ....
 
Think of those that have quoted even Heureux, sighing unhappily that their heads, one day, had a price, and in a crush (ed: as in the sound) would fall
I would have thought then ... the hope of the poor, waiting
In effect the hope like a (ed: ie. car) crash, one fine morning
I thought "vile rascal, vile jerk"

You let my body die ... this body ... the enthusiast of a great love of passion that is not of the body.
(Note: important distinction here between mind/ideas and body/passion -- mind has no body!)
I can imagine a time when a small thought would make a king
And envision the roles reversed, you saying that you voted for me
But seeing this is to make this reign disappear, which made my entrails unchain a thousand lightnings ... a king who no longer has a roof (over me!)
Vile rascal, vile jerk

In plain words ... the title means "The Key to Dreams" ... and it is about an ideal that did not pan out ... and in French history when ideas did not pan out their heads rolled off on the ground or into a basket ... such is the power and pain of history ... remember that ... as it affects the quality of the writing and in some cases the fury of the attack, and this one is strong ... very strong, and in my book ... very very very french! You could not sing this in America ... I really doubt it, and you might be able to do this in England but you better load it up with humor and make fun of the blackbirds!
 
Think of a writer writing about something at a time when heads rolled and he/she is thinking about a lower class putting its hopes on a person or two, who in the end was no different than them ... and ended up being a vile rascal ... (no matter which side I bet!) ...
 
This is a strong attack on how times change and one day this person is vile and the next they are king and rolling someone else's heads ... which happened in France almost all the way to DeGaulle's time (well not with the guillotine image anyway!) ... and how confused and impossible to believe in anything it really is ... one day is right the next day is wrong ... and in this case ... there is no key to dreams since the dream that helped create that one is dead ... over ... in a crush!
 
In itself, this is a beautifully writen poem ... what makes it hard to translate is that the Latin block languages wrap their verbs around the wording and it carries the dialogue forward, backward and into the present ... and it makes for tough translations into anglosaxon languages that do not have that many verb tenses, and the usage is not common on top of it.
 
I always think of this kind of poetry as "thoughts in action" ... you are literaly speaking through and you make it intensely personal ... it's very different about a poem that is detached from the person about and almost existential by comparison.
 
Next song as I get to it ... anyone else see this differently out of curiosity?


Edited by moshkito - May 13 2009 at 11:55
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2009 at 12:32

NAUFRAGE (4:27)
(Music by Gérard RUEZ and lyrics by Michel ROY)

Quand même l'envie de faire l'amour soudain passe Que le bon vin en ce jour vous fait si mal
Alors l'envie de s'éclater hante les rêves d'un Corps qui divague
Quand vient la nuit, que le jour meurt
On attend le matin comme le messie
Aux temps amèrs de temps en temps, Je passais mon temps
A contempler l'oiseau, la mer
Et ce vent du Dieu
Mais le temps passe, la fin approche
Pourtant je m'accroche
Comme une feuille après la vie
Juste avant l'automne

En ce temps-là, dame nature était Vêtue d'un manteau de passion Et dans le ciel, on pouvait voir
Un monde irréel au couleur du temps
Douce illusion, breuvage d'un monde Aux reflets obscurs
Frappe mon être et nourris-le de Ton doux passé

This is much easier to translate ... it is a very nice pastoral poem about fall ... and leaves falling ... and possibly a lost love as well.

SHIPWRECK

When that flleting moment of love passes That the good wine in this day makes you so badly (remember it all)
Then your envy bursts, haunts the dreams and the body dies 
When the night arrives and the day dies
One waits the morning like the Messiah (horrible translation ... mass is the word here, not messiah)
(it's not a pun, but a line saying that one waits for morning with a reverent feeling as if you were going to church that morning ...)
To bitter times from time to time, I spent my time,
I watch the birds, the sea
And this wind of God
But as time passes and the end approaches
However I hang
like a leaf across the life
just ahead of autumn

And during this time there is a passionate coat on nature, and the sky we can see
an unreal world with the color of a time
Full of illusion, drunk by a world of obscure reflections
that Strike my being and nourished your soft touch (I think that "nourishes the time passed" is probably better interpretation ... the poem may be more about the person coming to grips with a lost friendship/relation and the peace of mind that the poem and imagery is creating would suggest something more about the time passing by, than it would a memory of a touch in my estimation.)

Nice little poem ... even in translation it comes off well, and most of this is fairly literal translation ... and it shows you how some things can be easier than others ... 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2009 at 12:41
Hi,
 
I haven't done translations in a long time ... and I have to tell you that in general I really don't like translations ... and here are some examples ...
 
My dad was a well known writer and has been published ... over the years I have seen a lot of his work translated to English (for example) and even some of the stuff that my sister translated, stunk in my book ... it is always trying to compare the wording to some important concept that has nothing to do with the immediate visual at hand ... and it is always so fickle in translation as to actually make it meaningless and in my own words "Poet-less" ... 
 
Some things translate better than others ... when the language is specific and to the point it is easier ... when the wording is conceptual in nature and uses a lot of symbolical language, then it tends to go downhill fast and faster into the dregs. It's hard to translate a concept into one word ... unless that concept is "God"? see what I mean ... and the usage thereof is insane as it is!
 
I tend to try and live through each "moment" as a writer and poet. Thus each line is important or they would not be there ... and your brain (check out dreams, for example) is not an organized pot-pourri of ideas ... it tends to run on and on and on and then switch for no rhyme or reason outside your own experience ... and you can not translate that satisfactorily ... as one lady academic and professor in Italy told me one day about my screen play ... how can you use so many universal symbols and they are not symbols? .... which would mean I am trying to please their image of the world (or writer) ... not my own inner vision ... and the majority of writers do NOT write out of someone's ideas ... they write from the heart ... and these lyrics here are very good examples of it.
 
You write what you feel ... and never worry about what someone is going to think or say ... the same for music and painting ... or you are not an artiste!
 
And let me tell you ... the thought of my sister translating some of my poems makes me want to make sure they are never found again EVER! ... not that I don't like her, it's not me that she is representing when she is translating those things ... it's someone out there that doesn't exist! And that is the worst thing that can happen to any artist ... it's really the same thing that many people here on this board do with musicians ... very little difference!


Edited by moshkito - May 13 2009 at 12:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2009 at 13:48
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,
 
I haven't done translations in a long time ... and I have to tell you that in general I really don't like translations ... and here are some examples ...
 


Yeah, I see what you mean. I have done translations myself and it's quite different than most people might think. Most people think that each word or phrase or sentence in the source text corresponds exactly to certain words, phrases or sentences in the target language, and the translator's job is just to "convert" those words and "place" them in the right order! This is far from truth. Not only the grammar, the syntax and the vocabulary are different, but also each word or phrase has a "cultural baggage"  which gets lost in translation along with "the writer's true intentions." So the translator's mission is to make sure the loss is kept at the minimum. That's why translation is a very depressing job for the translator himself, because he can never achieve perfection and he only knows all that's been lost. The translated text is nothing but a pale, distorted, incomplete version of the original text; in fact a brand new text that somebody else, the translator, wrote, with inspiration from the original text, at the most..

I appreciate your interpretations for the first two songs. The first song is very well explained; it's much more than I could understood with the help of online translators. I would really like to hear your interpretation of the the next ones; well, of Complot, at least..   

It's been a pleasure conversing with you.

Regards.


Edited by meurglys0 - May 13 2009 at 13:51
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 13 2009 at 20:39
Originally posted by meurglys0 meurglys0 wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,
 
I haven't done translations in a long time ... and I have to tell you that in general I really don't like translations ... and here are some examples ...
 


Yeah, I see what you mean. I have done translations myself and it's quite different than most people might think. Most people think that each word or phrase or sentence in the source text corresponds exactly to certain words, phrases or sentences in the target language, and the translator's job is just to "convert" those words and "place" them in the right order! This is far from truth. Not only the grammar, the syntax and the vocabulary are different, but also each word or phrase has a "cultural baggage"  which gets lost in translation along with "the writer's true intentions." So the translator's mission is to make sure the loss is kept at the minimum. That's why translation is a very depressing job for the translator himself, because he can never achieve perfection and he only knows all that's been lost. The translated text is nothing but a pale, distorted, incomplete version of the original text; in fact a brand new text that somebody else, the translator, wrote, with inspiration from the original text, at the most..




^
That's really a very interesting post that confirms most of the translations I've read.  The exception being Raffa's because she has such very firm grasp of both Italian and English, her work is superb. 

Kudos to moshkito for attempting this difficult Pentacle work.  Makes me wanna play that great album again!!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2009 at 09:24
Hi,
 
Thx Finn and Meurglys ...
 
I tend to look at these translations as a way to get their meaning across without ME ... me and my opinions are not important in the attempt to bring forth what the poet wants ... fiction is easier as you can expose just about anything ... but poetry is tough as it sort assumes that you know what the visuals are ... which is the reason I DO NOT write in symbols at all ... I only write what I see ... and if someone wants to make symbols out of a spec of dust or a grain of sand on the beach ... be my guest! But that's them, not me!
 
The first poem, is very "european" ... and "extremely french" ... France's arts took a real harsh turn during the French Revolution and that viciousness is still alive in a lot of work in France ... it must have something to do with the people themselves I would imagine ... there is a film by Gaspar Noel (I stand alone -- not sure of the french title right now ... sorry) that makes me see the "raw violence" that these attitudes take and what they make people do ... and that film is a good example of the mind going awry and off its rocker ... completely!
 
I can understand feeling that strong about things ... I was born under a dictatorship in Portugal and dad was a writer that was lucky enough to leave it and succeed. Unffortunately, that kind of violence tends to beget violence, and that would defeat the purpose of many a poet and writer in the first place ... unless they are a part of that "revolution". We can always ask Jean Paul Marat a lot more about that!


Edited by moshkito - May 14 2009 at 09:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2009 at 10:46
Hi,
 
L'AME DU GUERRIER (6:06)
(Music by Michel ROY and lyrics by Richard TREIBER)
J'aurais jadis, mené sans pitié
Pour une armure, un beau casque et une épée Malgré les pleurs, ma mère au bûcher
C'était hier, je baignais dans l'irréel
Sur mon beau cheval, tout vêtu de blanc Je partais l'âme en fête prendre l'univers
Je poursuivis à travers le temps
Le seul rival qui toujours virait de bord Comme un navire en pleine détresse
En cet instant, quelque chose en moi dérive
Emporté par la gloire, je sens le naufrage
Ce fut la mort dans l'âme, qu'en vain je sombrai
Après la fête, comme un feu de joie
La flamme d'orgueil qui brûlait en moi se meurt Me fait songer avant de languir
Car aujourd'hui, au soir de la vie passée
Je reviens l'âme en peine du pays des rêves Sur ma vieille monture voûtée par le temps
C'était hier, j'étais sans pitié
C'était hier, ma mère périt au bûcher Mais aujourd'hui après la bataille
Ma panoplie s'est endormie au musée.

The Heart of the Warrior
 
I would have formerly carried out without pity
For an armour, a beautiful helmet and a sword In spite of the tears, my mother with roughing-hew
That was yesterday, I bathed in the unreal
On my good horse, all plainly dressed, I take part in a celebration
(Note: this could also have another image here ... dressed in white ... as in the templars)
(Note: Very tough line ... I would have to hear this said to know more about what it is being said)
I pursuit to travel through time (travel through the years)
The lone rival who always transfered edge Like a ship in full distress
in that moment, something has come alive
(Note: rah rah rah ... wakes up the soldier!!! hehe!)
Carried by glory I sense the shipwreck
the death of the heart I vainly sink into.
After the feast, with a fire of joys
(Note: european expression ... means excited and happy with a win)
the flame of the pride, that burnt in me, dies ... before extinguishing itself
today as the last evening of the life that's passed.
I return the heart in sorrow of the country of the dreams on my old horse aged with time
It was only yesterday, I was without pity
It was only yesterday, my mother died (au bucher) but today after the battle
my panoply (image) is asleep in a museum.
(Note: I loosened up a couple of bits here as they are tough ... the last line about a museum would translate that it is laid down in a museum ... like a painting ... asleep ... ! Nice analogy too!)
 
 This, I would say is very much an eulogy of some sort ... it has a specially pointed and poignant point of view ... the ship sinking, but the soldier fighting ... you see that in pirate movies (a la Hollywood) ... but no one ever thinks of the individual ... fighting for a cause and losing ... the one that inevitably ends up on a painting and memorialized in a museum (if they are lucky!!!) ...
 
The expression "au bucher"  I would think is like an adjective of some sort but I do not know what it is ...
 
Very nice actually even if the translation is choppy.


Edited by moshkito - May 14 2009 at 10:54
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2009 at 11:30
Originally posted by meurglys0 meurglys0 wrote:

... Yeah, I see what you mean. I have done translations myself and it's quite different than most people might think. Most people think that each word or phrase or sentence in the source text corresponds exactly to certain words, phrases or sentences in the target language, and the translator's job is just to "convert" those words and "place" them in the right order!  ... 
 
The biggest problems I have with "academic" translations is that it is always trying to tie things up to some kind of universal symbol (gotta love that one!) that everyone is supposed to know it means this and that ... and I have never met a single writer that writes anything ... from science to code to novels to poetry to music ... that does that ... you tie yourself to a feeling, an image or a sound and you go with it ... and that's that ...
 
So, for me to try and translate what I specifically said ... would entail you having to know what I am about ... and why I said A and B ... and that is impossible ... no matter who I, we, all of us ... are!
 
A literal translation, with notes, makes more sense to me ... as it makes sense to let the reader live through the set of images ... and in these 3 translations so far ... man ... the kids that wrote this are really influenced by their family history I would say ... and some of the stuff and visualization they come up with is way better than Roger Waters in my book, not to mention that it is quite real ... and still alive.
 
War and destruction dies hard ... America is lucky that it has not been destroyed senseless yet ...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2009 at 12:01
Hi,
 
LES PAUVRES (3:25)
(Music by Gérard RUEZ and lyrics by Michel ROY)
Déchirés par la faim, pris de grisaille
Faibles et malsains se consumant comme une paille Perdus en quête d'une faille
Ils sont là, titubants, fossiles d'un autre monde Ils sont là, puants, inondés de peine profonde Meurtris à chaque seconde
Egarés dans la nuit, ils tendent leurs mains Pour cet or qui luit des coffres pleins l'espoir frappé de cécité
Envahis de sommeil, fardeau d'un long jour
Sans sourire, sans soleil, sans l'ombre d'un détour Fleuris de chaleur et d'amour.

The poor
(Note: more correctly in english "the poor ones" since the word poor is not usually associated with a group of people)
Torn by hunger, trapped by greyness
(Note: darkness is the vernacular here since darkness would imply death)
the weak and the unhealthy consume themselves as with a straw searching for the last drop (
(Note: or reason -- nice analogy)
They stagger like fossils from another world, They are there, (puants), flooded like Meurtris' sorrow at each second
(Note: Not sure what "puants" is ... but I keep thinkig statues or similar)
Mislaid in the night, they rub their their hands tightly For this gold which shone of the full trunks l' struck hope of blindness
(Note: I think it means to say "the glow of the warmth the rubbing hands bring lead to a strike of blind hope" -- in other words the warmth makes a person think of better days and hopes of a better day -- nice image too!)
Invaded sleep, the burden of a long day
Without a smile, without sun, without the shadow of turning flower in the heat or of love.
(Note: I took a little literary license on the last sentence ... that's a wonderful image .. watching a flower ... appreciating some "beauty" when you are doing it from a place that society usually considers ugly ... )
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2009 at 12:37
Hi,
 
COMPLOT (5:01)
(Music by Claude MENETRIER and lyrics by Richard TREIBER)
Du haut de mon rocher, Chez le vieux divin
Que l'on appelle en bas Père des baladins
Moi la bête à bon dieu Je vis de mes yeux
Fille de joie, faisant causette avec un mâle
Emportant la bataille Sur un bien qui râle Des coups du mal
Je me tape la tête Bon dieu, que j'ai mal Mon âme m'entame
Des gouttes d'eau salée Sur des mains ridées Poussées par le passé S'écrasent à mes pieds
Rengaine du temps
Temps d'une vie de damnés Damné je suis, tel un crotale
Du haut de mon rocher Chez les trépassés J'ai vu le mal
Disparaître en fumée Après la bataille Riant du bien.

-----
From the top of my rock, with the divine old  man
(Note: the translation of this is tough ... it could also mean the old divine path that many took, priest or layman)
the one we call the Father of the wandering minstrels
Me, the beast with good heart, I live off my eyes
daughter of joy, making havoc with man
carrying the torch (note: battle) with a good (intention) that carries actions of evil (bad)
I hit myself in the head .. my god ... I am bad and out of control ...
drops of salt water, on wrinkled hands, pushing by the past with my feet
(    ) of time
Times of a life of the damned, damned I am (    )
From the top of my rock, where the trespassers meet, I have seen the bad
disappear in smoke, after the battle of laughing at the good.
 
This is a bit tougher to translate ... I'm thinking of an old man sitting on top of a rock and remembering the past and some of his deeds ... and he is not proud of some of these.
 
It's a reflection ... looking from above yourself at yourself ... it's very nice ...
 
The poetic image is nice .. and you can almost see the old man in the mountain in the BC cartoon ... who would read and love this ...
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2009 at 12:59
Hi,
 
LE RACONTEUR (10:42)
(Music by Gérard RUEZ and lyrics by Claude MENETRIER)
Au passage du raconteur
Le temps, la nature chantent Une vague douceur
l'emplit de grandeur
l'image de sa sagesse Reflet des temps passés Chef d'oeuvre de richesse Un signe d'odyssée
Dans l'immense cosmos, une étoile s'éteint Venez l'écouter, braves gens Car l'humanité est déjà poussière l'orgueil humain a fait son temps
Allez, bonnes gens, sur la plaine Vous oublierez toutes vos haines Ne soyez pas exigeants
Peuple déshérité
Aujourd'hui, il conte l'histoire
D'un monde appelé la terre Et le raconteur l'achève Pour un voyage éternel

The Story Teller
With the passage of the story teller
and time,
nature sings with a soft song inspiring greatness
the image of its wisdom reflect times passed by,
creator of a work of riches, a sign that the odyssey
of the large cosmos, a star has come and listened, brave folks since humanity is already dust (in other words that moment has already passed)
the human pride has had its time. (... has made its time ...)
Attention good people, on the surface, You will forget all your hatreds are not demanding,
people disowned
Today, he tells a story
of a world called "earth" (terre) ... and the story teller will acomplish this like an eternal voyage.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 14 2009 at 13:27
Hi,
 
This was not hard ... but I could see where I was having a problem translating the images I was getting reading these words ... this is highly visual stuff ... which is not often easy to sing about since it is coming from a visual not an idea ... generally most actors and singers can "act things out" ... but you in general, this is not something that most actors are capable of reading and doing ... you kinda have to live there to appreciate it I suppose.
 
As before, I find that this is not really about "religion" any more than it is about "self" ... and in my book this is very nicely written and has a very nice poetic flow from image to image ...
 
Complot is very nice ... it is sort of like a nice meditation and recapitulation of things ... and sometimes these end up being funny when you look back at things ... one could imagine that the devil is sitting there laughing all the way to his soul's bank when a church is burning, but then the christians do the same thing to the opposite ... so, how does it go? ... an eye for an eye ... a tooth for a tooth ... ? (and sometimes even gloat and glorify the death ... if you are in France!) ...
 
You are making me go chase this album ... this is nice stuff and very well written ... you don't usually find poetry like this in a lot of music out there ... most of it are just "songs" ... but this is poetry at its best.
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