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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 13:07

I was referring to the fact that Catholics and Evangelicals are grouped under the term Christrianity. I never insulted Catholicism.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 13:16

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Dean wrote:

People call the idiot Ralph an idiot, as an atheist I do not take that personally nor do I presume it applies to all atheists. The same is true when people attack fanatics like Dawkins, I am not Dawkins, they are not attacking me even though he and I are both atheists.

There's a difference and you know it Dean, you're an intelligent person

We said Ralph...This only involves Ralph

It was said Christians, it involves Catholics because we are Christians

Dean wrote:

But no one did.

Yes they did.

Equality 7 2521 wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Well you both believe in similar big men living in the sky, so it's not exactly as if it's an arbitrary categorization.

*headdesk*

Thank f_ck this is the atheist thread...

What?

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 13:17

Your post is too long Ivan. I understand Germany has always been divided in two regions in terms of religion and Lutherans were a little closer to Nazism than Catholics, but it still is undeniable that quite a few Catholic priests not only didn't act against the NSDAP (understandable, it's quite easier to judge in hindsight) but even when they (later in Nazi Germany's short life) started to somewhat denounce their regime and its persecution of Jews, they based it not on the common bond of all of us being humans but in somewhat tenuous religious links. Almost nobody said anything in favor of the Roma and the gays, of course. (It has to be said that they DID say a lot against the T4 - euthanasia program for the mentally challenged, but out of a "God creates life" motivation mostly).

That all the Allies had relations with Germany doesn't mean that the Vatican, not only a STATE but ALSO sort of a moral guide to millions of people, was thus for any reasons justified in signing a pact with a regime whose main champion ideology clearly spelled out hate as early as 1920 and full-on after 1924.

In the end it was a matter of "each protecting its own", isn't it?

And yes, please, next time please better judge and pay attention to a "

Edited by The T - January 31 2014 at 13:18

The T

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 13:18

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

I didn't make the number up. Dean has posted my source.

American Protestantism is evangelistic. And belief in Creationism exists in other sects such as Catholics.

Again it's a Latin expression as in the case of neuralgic centre

"No puedo creer que existan" (I can't believe they exist)

It's not that I doubt what you say, it's an expression that describes how ridiculous is the situation that we now is real.

I believe you, what i can't believe is how fanatic people can be.

Again a problem of translation.

Iván

That's not what you said. You said

Honestly, can't believe that almost 50% of the population are creationists.

You said that you in all honesty do not believe the numbers that I quoted.

The words are as clear as day.

Equality, if I had said that, I would had recognized my mistake.

That's how we Latin Americans speak, it's easy for us to translate what we say, but not to know if the expression means the same here and there.

No me lo puedo creer. dakar.com	I just cannot believe it. dakar.com
Todavía no me lo puedo creer que ahora tengo estos dientes perfectos y blancos. flydent.com	I still find it hard to believe that I am the owner of straight, white teeth. flydent.com
Sinceramente, casi no me lo puedo creer redtienda.com	Sincerely, I almost couldn't believe it redtienda.com
Nuestros hijos se están desarrollando de una forma que no me lo puedo creer. fra.europa.eu	Our children are developing themselves in a way thatI cannot believe. fra.europa.eu
Sinceramente no me lo puedo creer. giselapulido.es	Honestly I can't believe it.

http://www.linguee.es/espanol-ingles/traduccion/no+me+lo+puedo+creer.html

I'm not an ignorant

- I know about the Bible Belt.

- I have seen photos of the Creation Museum and made fun of them.

- I remember when the phrase "Evolution is only a theory as Creationism" forced to be printed in books

- I know USA has almost 40% of evangelicals (Of multiple denominations) and ALL OF THEM HAVE LITERAL BELIEF IN CREATION.

I have many defects, but I never deny what I said and never lie, if I said something I'll stick to it, or if I'm wrong i would say sorry, I dion't knew.

But when I say we use this expression is because we use it.

Iván

My comment has flown sufficiently over your head it appears, as well as Teo's.

Oh I understood your comment and also Ivan's. I was just trying to plant the seeds of language harmony. Tongue

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 13:20

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Yes they did

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Well you both believe in similar big men living in the sky, so it's not exactly as if it's an arbitrary categorization.

This is not an attack in my view. Really, all Christian faith somewhat share some elements in common. Quite a lot in fact. One of them the big guy living somewhere

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 13:21

I'm happy though because it seems that we have ALL agreed that Ralph is an idiot... praised be the Lord. Tongue

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 13:23

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

(...)

We didn't collaborate with the Nazis

(...)

Just a bit..

Nazi officer, chetnik ( chetnicks were serbian fascists & collaborationists ) and franciscan quardian in Obrovac, Croatia, 1943.

Roman catholic priests with ustashi officers (ustashi were croatian fascists & collaborationists) in Zagreb, Croatia, 1941.

Edited by Svetonio - January 31 2014 at 13:28

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 13:29

Good point. Let's remember that Nazi Germany was just the major example of a continent-wide trend of small but radical fascist movements trying all to capitalize on the disaster of WW1, the Italian Fascists, and the NSDAP's success of 1933. They all had strong anti-semitic racist ideologies. And in many cases catholic priests were not that clear in their opposition to them.

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 14:59

The T wrote:

Good point. Let's remember that Nazi Germany was just the major example of a continent-wide trend of small but radical fascist movements trying all to capitalize on the disaster of WW1, the Italian Fascists, and the NSDAP's success of 1933. They all had strong anti-semitic racist ideologies. And in many cases catholic priests were not that clear in their opposition to them.

When you tyalk about catjholics, you have to think in different terms.

The evangelicals don't have a central leadership, there are multiple headless groups, with sometimes very little in common.

The Catholic individuals can do what they want in general terms BUT THE ONLY PERSON WHIO REPRESENTS THE CHURCH IS THE POPE, NOBODY ELSE CAN REPRESENT THE CHURCH.

As I said, we have liberals, communists, radicals, even nazis and fascists, yes i agree

BUT THEY ARE INDIVIDUALS AND WHATEVER THEY SAY OR DO, DOESN'T COMPROMISE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

The Pope can make general statements but can't force people to change their political ideas, unless they go to far and are excomunicated

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 14:59

Svetonio wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

(...)

We didn't collaborate with the Nazis

(...)

Just a bit..

Nazi officer, chetnik ( chetnicks were serbian fascists & collaborationists ) and franciscan quardian in Obrovac, Croatia, 1943.

Roman catholic priests with ustashi officers (ustashi were croatian fascists & collaborationists) in Zagreb, Croatia, 1941.

Individual priests, not the the Church

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 15:03

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

When you tyalk about catjholics, you have to think in different terms.

The evangelicals don't have a central leadership, there are multiple headless groups, with sometimes very little in common.

The Catholic individuals can do what they want in general terms BUT THE ONLY PERSON WHIO REPRESENTS THE CHURCH IS THE POPE, NOBODY ELSE CAN REPRESENT THE CHURCH.

As I said, we have liberals, communists, radicals, even nazis and fascists, yes i agree

BUT THEY ARE INDIVIDUALS AND WHATEVER THEY SAY OR DO, DOESN'T COMPROMISE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

The Pope can make general statements but can't force people to change their political ideas, unless they go to far and are excomunicated

I know where you're coming from with the statement, but if the entire Catholic population except the pope supported murdering jews, then that would compromise the catholic church.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 15:32

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

When you tyalk about catjholics, you have to think in different terms.

The evangelicals don't have a central leadership, there are multiple headless groups, with sometimes very little in common.

The Catholic individuals can do what they want in general terms BUT THE ONLY PERSON WHIO REPRESENTS THE CHURCH IS THE POPE, NOBODY ELSE CAN REPRESENT THE CHURCH.

As I said, we have liberals, communists, radicals, even nazis and fascists, yes i agree

BUT THEY ARE INDIVIDUALS AND WHATEVER THEY SAY OR DO, DOESN'T COMPROMISE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

The Pope can make general statements but can't force people to change their political ideas, unless they go to far and are excomunicated

But it actually speaks poorly of the church that even though its main representative and head said one thing, many of his underlings did quite the opposite thing. I'm not sure that really speaks well of the Church as a whole but just of the doctrines of one persona and those who followed him.

Whatever individual representatives of the church (priests, etc) say or do actually compromises the catholic church, if not officially, at least in reality. In every organization of every kind it's not just what the higher authority does or says what matters.

We can all agree there were bad Catholics and there were good Catholics in Europe at that time. We cannot either assign blame, or take it away from, the Church as a whole. But what is clear is that many of its most obvious believers (who were so far as to become ordained for their beliefs) acted quite contrary to what Christ would have probably wanted them to....

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 15:51

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

When you tyalk about catjholics, you have to think in different terms.

The evangelicals don't have a central leadership, there are multiple headless groups, with sometimes very little in common.

The Catholic individuals can do what they want in general terms BUT THE ONLY PERSON WHIO REPRESENTS THE CHURCH IS THE POPE, NOBODY ELSE CAN REPRESENT THE CHURCH.

As I said, we have liberals, communists, radicals, even nazis and fascists, yes i agree

BUT THEY ARE INDIVIDUALS AND WHATEVER THEY SAY OR DO, DOESN'T COMPROMISE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

The Pope can make general statements but can't force people to change their political ideas, unless they go to far and are excomunicated

I know where you're coming from with the statement, but if the entire Catholic population except the pope supported murdering jews, then that would compromise the catholic church.

But the whole population never did that.

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 15:53

I'm aware. It's a hypothetical. And a limiting case just to show a point.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 15:57

The T wrote:

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

When you talk about Catholics, you have to think in different terms.

The evangelicals don't have a central leadership, there are multiple headless groups, with sometimes very little in common.

The Catholic individuals can do what they want in general terms BUT THE ONLY PERSON WHIO REPRESENTS THE CHURCH IS THE POPE, NOBODY ELSE CAN REPRESENT THE CHURCH.

As I said, we have liberals, communists, radicals, even nazis and fascists, yes i agree

BUT THEY ARE INDIVIDUALS AND WHATEVER THEY SAY OR DO, DOESN'T COMPROMISE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

The Pope can make general statements but can't force people to change their political ideas, unless they go to far and are excomunicated

T, it was a very small minority.

In Italy, the jews wedre hidden in Italian Catholic laymen houses

Some priests as Hugh O Flaherty were heroes without asking their superiors

In the early years of World War II, O'Flaherty toured prisoner of war (POW) camps in Italy and tried to find out about prisoners who had been reported missing in action. If he found them alive, he tried to reassure their families through Radio Vatican.^[7] When Italy changed sides in 1943, thousands of British POWs were released; however, when Germany imposed an occupation over Italy, they were in danger of recapture. Some of them, remembering visits by O'Flaherty, reached Rome and asked him for help. Others went to the Irish Embassy to the Holy See, the only English-speaking embassy to remain open in Rome during the war. Delia Murphy, who was the wife of the ambassador and in her day a well-known ballad singer, was one of those who helped O'Flaherty.^[8]

O'Flaherty did not wait for permission from his superiors. He recruited the help of other priests (including two young New Zealanders, Fathers Owen Snedden and John Flanagan), two agents working for the Free French, François de Vial and Yves Debroise, and even Communists and a Swiss count. One of his aides was British Major Sam Derry, a POW escapee. Derry along with British officers and escaped POWs Lieutenants Furman and Simpson, and Captain Byrnes, a Canadian, were responsible for the security and operational organisation. O'Flaherty also kept contact with Sir D'Arcy Osborne, British Ambassador to the Holy See and his butler John May (whom O'Flaherty described as "a genius ... the most magnificent scrounger"). O'Flaherty and his allies concealed 4,000 escapees, mainly Allied soldiers and Jews, in flats, farms and convents. One of the first hideouts was beside the local SS headquarters. O'Flaherty and Derry coordinated all this. When outside the Vatican, O'Flaherty wore various disguises. The German occupiers tried to stop him and eventually they found out that the leader of the network was a priest. SS attempts to assassinate him failed. They learned his identity, but could not arrest him inside the Vatican. When the German ambassador revealed this to O'Flaherty, he began to meet his contacts on the stairs of the St. Peter's Basilica.

Lieutenant Colonel Herbert Kappler, the head of the SS Sicherheitsdienst and Gestapo in Rome learned of O'Flaherty's actions; he ordered a white line painted on the pavement at the opening ofSt. Peter's Square (signifying the border between Vatican City and Italy), stating that the priest would be killed if he crossed it. Ludwig Koch, head of the neo-Fascist Italian police in Rome, often spoke of his intention to torture O'Flaherty before executing him if he ever fell into his hands.^[9]

Several others, including priests, nuns and lay people, worked in secret with O'Flaherty, and even hid refugees in their own private homes around Rome. Among these were the AugustinianMaltese Fathers Egidio Galea, Aurelio Borg and Ugolino Gatt and Brother Robert Pace of the Brothers of Christian Schools. Another person who contributed significantly to this operation was theMalta-born widow Chetta Chevalier, who hid some refugees in her house with her children, and was lucky to escape detection.^[10] Jewish religious services were conducted in the Basilica di San Clemente, which was under Irish diplomatic protection, under a painting of Tobias.^[11]

When the Allies arrived in Rome in June 1944, 6,425 of the escapees were still alive. O'Flaherty demanded that German prisoners be treated properly as well. He took a plane to South Africa to meet Italian POWs and to Jerusalem to visit Jewish refugees. Of the 9,700 Jews in Rome, 1,007 had been shipped to Auschwitz. The rest were hidden, 5,000 of them by the official Church − 3,000 in Castel Gandolfo, 200 or 400 (estimates vary) as "members" of the Palatine Guard and some 1,500 in monasteries, convents and colleges. The remaining 3,700 were hidden in private homes.^[12]

At the time of the liberation of Rome, O'Flaherty's and Major Sam Derry's organisation was caring for 3,925 escapees and men who had succeeded in evading arrest. Of these 1,695 were British, 896 South African, 429 Russian, 425 Greek and 185 American. The remainder were from 20 different nations. This does not include Jews and sundry other men and women who were in O'Flaherty's strictly personal care.

...

After the war Hugh O'Flaherty received a number of awards including Commander of the Order of the British Empire and the US Medal of Freedom with Silver Palm. He was also honoured by Canada and Australia. He refused to use the lifetime pension that Italy had given him. In the 1950s, the Chaplet of the Divine Mercy, in the form proposed by the now-sainted Mary Faustina Kowalska, was under a ban from the Vatican. It was O'Flaherty who, as Notary, signed the document that notified Catholics of the ban.^[13]

O'Flaherty regularly visited his old nemesis Colonel Herbert Kappler (the former SS chief in Rome) in prison, month after month, being Kappler's only visitor. In 1959, Kappler converted to Catholicism and was baptised by O'Flaherty.^[14]^[15]

In 1960, O'Flaherty suffered a serious stroke during Mass and was forced to return to Ireland. Shortly before his first stroke in 1960, he was due to be confirmed as the Papal Nuncio to Tanzania. He moved to Cahersiveen to live with his sister, at whose home he died on 30 October 1963, aged 65. He was buried in the cemetery of the Daniel O'Connell Memorial Church in Cahersiveen. There is a monument in Killarney town and a grove of Hugh O'Flaherty Trees in the Killarney National Park.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_O'Flaherty

People remember the few Nazi, but forget the many heroes that risked their lives.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 31 2014 at 16:13

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 16:00

Ivan

I think you'll find most of us sympathetic to your arguments but while the Pope is the embodiment of the Catholic church most people experience the religion via local priests. What the majority of the priest actually preach is what gets experienced by the populace.

Ian

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 16:15

Oh Ivan I knew about O'Flaherty. In fact just a few months ago I even saw the movie based on his awesome actions (The Scarlet and the Black).

To end this rather endless debate (that was, let's remember, unnecessarily started after my not-too-serious reference to the Church and Nazi Germany after Dean mentioned Godwin's Law, which was even followed by a smiley that whenever I use it means nonsense joke coming), let's agree that:

1. The Pope represents the Catholic Church and the Pope during the NSDAP's reign was sympathetic and even wanted to help persecuted jews.

2. That sadly little mention was done about other peoples in similar plights.

3. That just as there were some good nazis around, there were also terrible bad Catholics around who endorsed terrible acts.

4. That is just normal that those not-so-unique exceptions are notorious. When a nazi, supposed to be hateful, acted honorably, it aligned to common sense and dignity; when a priest, supposed to be the incarnation of goodness and representative of God for its parish (or something like that) acted and supported acts like the Devil himself, this understandably baffles anyone with any common sense. This belittles the power of the doctrine of love of the Church.

5. That I tend, in my atheism (or agnosticism really) to hold a more favorable position of the Catholic religion that of most others, if simply because I grew up around it and I'm closer to it culturally, so this is NOT AN ATTACK.

6. That Ralph is an idiot.

7. That the Catholic Church is one thing, Catholics are a different one, and the Pope is a different one.

8. Finally, let's agree that no one, nobody, except you and I estimate 1000 other non-ordained people, have ever read Lumen Gentium or other documents issued by the Pope.

Edited by The T - January 31 2014 at 16:20

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 17:20

Are we done now? Has the honour of the catholic church been restored sufficiently so we don't have to be bludgeoned to death by a sea of 'cut and pasted' hypertext? What next? The Spanish Inquisition?

ffs

What?

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 17:36

^ why complain, it came with a free lesson in Spanish

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Posted: January 31 2014 at 20:44

Dean wrote:

Are we done now? Has the honour of the catholic church been restored sufficiently so we don't have to be bludgeoned to death by a sea of 'cut and pasted' hypertext? What next? The Spanish Inquisition?

ffs

Since when the opinions bother you Dean?