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Sir Realist 
Forum Newbie
Joined: May 24 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 38
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 Topic: OKAY, WE HEARD YOU...BUT...
Posted: May 24 2005 at 17:17 |
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I'm a newbie, and delighted to have found this site. But as I was browsing
through the artists, I was intrigued not only by what was new to me, but
by what is missing. For example: Greg Howe. Does Howe fall outside the
"prog" definition, for some reason? If so, by what criteria? I'm not
complaining -- just seeking clarification. Of more concern is the absence
of early contributors of considerable importance (IMO). Steve Marcus/
Count's Rock Band is an immediately obvious example. Harvel Mandel is
another. I know that Harvey's early instrumental stuff -- "The Snake,"
"Shangrenade," "Baby Batter" -- has been reissued in recent years in the
UK, so it's not like he's vanished from consciousness.
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I can have double standards, and you can't
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Joren
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 07 2004
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 6667
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Posted: May 20 2005 at 14:46 |
 Litl wrote:
Throw in my vote (if that's what we're doing here) for putting prog metal in its own lounge. I think it is more in its own field than any other of the subgenres and fewer people make the jump between. |
Krautrock is more in its own field I think, or maybe Zeuhl.
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FloydWright
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 20 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 369
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Posted: May 20 2005 at 14:35 |
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Thanks...I hope others will voice their agreement to this idea.
And again, if necessary, I am willing to volunteer to help sort out the prog-metal threads because I think I know a fair amount about which bands fall into the genre.
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Litl
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 09 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 112
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Posted: May 20 2005 at 12:24 |
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Throw in my vote (if that's what we're doing here) for putting prog
metal in its own lounge. I think it is more in its own field than
any other of the subgenres and fewer people make the jump between.
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Guests
Forum Guest Group
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Posted: May 17 2005 at 17:53 |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
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Posted: May 17 2005 at 15:59 |
Joren wrote:
Certif1ed wrote:
Joren wrote:
Tuxon and Ivan: If you'd like to LEARN, then just visit the threads in subgenresubforums that you know little about! Is it that hard? |
A few problems with that, Joren;
1) If people don't know too much about a particular subgenre, they are less likely to visit a separate forum on the topic than investigate an ongoing thread on it in a single main forum. The willingness to learn is not enough.
2) No-one comes here principally to learn, surely? I would have thought that most people come here to have a good time and discuss prog music in all its forms.
3) Subdividing Prog into subgenres is divisive. It's bad enough as it stands, without enforcing some kind of artificial additional subdivisions.
4) No-one agrees on what prog is, let alone the subgenres! You might be clear in your own mind what the subgenres are - but I bet I'd find reasons to disagree... 
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1) If the willingness to learn is not enough to make a little effort, then they shouldn't. I'm lazy, and even I am willing to get used to a new model.
Shouldn't what????
Yes, we need a new model - but we need the right one; one that is intuitive to new users and comforatble to more senior users, and offers the right dynamic. I don't think we've achieved it yet - it's gone too far in the "sprawling" direction.
2) Yes, and with a subdivision in subgenres, they can easily navigate to their favourite style 
But why split it at all - it's all prog (except prog metal). What if there are only 5 posts on Prog Folk and 500 posts on prog metal? That'll give the impression that this site is more geared towards the latter. By containing all the genres, members can maintain a balance - by complaining about the excessive prog metal posts, if necessary. The balance soon returns - which it never will if you split everyone up.
3,4) you can check the subdivision used on the homepage. In a few days, you'll be used to the subdivision we use here. No big deal.
That doesn't stop it being devisive - you mustn't imagine that everyone thinks like you or embraces these subdivisions. I certainly don't - "Art Rock", for example, is a complete nonsense "genre" - it's not even a real genre, IMO, as many people see prog rock as a subgenre of art rock AND vice versa.
The descriptions on our home page are hopelessy inadequate still - I'm working on some better ones, using Wikipedia as a spring board. Prog Archives description has been more or less lifted from there - but you'll notice some "nice" differences between what's on this site and what's on Wikipedia now, including all that rubbish about Radiohead having been removed.
I'm going to submit some major changes soon, which I believe will describe prog rock properly.
So, what's the problem? 
I'm finding the forum MUCH harder to navigate now there are all these new subforums - it feels bigger, and yet more cluttered. It seems harder to find anything these days - and that's after only a week or so.
That's the problem.
Unless I'm the only one having it...  |
Edited by Certif1ed
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tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004
Location: plugged-in
Status: Offline
Points: 5502
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Posted: May 17 2005 at 15:13 |
flowerchild wrote:
What is the "but" for???? |
sit on it
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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Joren
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 07 2004
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 6667
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Posted: May 17 2005 at 13:52 |
Certif1ed wrote:
Joren wrote:
Tuxon and Ivan: If you'd like to LEARN, then just visit the threads in subgenresubforums that you know little about! Is it that hard? |
A few problems with that, Joren;
1) If people don't know too much about a particular subgenre, they are less likely to visit a separate forum on the topic than investigate an ongoing thread on it in a single main forum. The willingness to learn is not enough.
2) No-one comes here principally to learn, surely? I would have thought that most people come here to have a good time and discuss prog music in all its forms.
3) Subdividing Prog into subgenres is divisive. It's bad enough as it stands, without enforcing some kind of artificial additional subdivisions.
4) No-one agrees on what prog is, let alone the subgenres! You might be clear in your own mind what the subgenres are - but I bet I'd find reasons to disagree...
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1) If the willingness to learn is not enough to make a little effort, then they shouldn't. I'm lazy, and even I am willing to get used to a new model.
2) Yes, and with a subdivision in subgenres, they can easily navigate to their favourite style
3,4) you can check the subdivision used on the homepage. In a few days, you'll be used to the subdivision we use here. No big deal.
So, what's the problem?
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Guests
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Posted: May 17 2005 at 13:46 |
What is the "but" for????
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FloydWright
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 20 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 369
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Posted: May 14 2005 at 22:34 |
Syntharachnid wrote:
Apologies, sombody has already set me straight in another thread. Just so that you know, I'm only fourteen myself, and have never seen a Pink Floyd show. I justified my comment by thinking to myself "Hey, I can say that, because I don't wear Floyd t-shirts!"
All the same, that last post was very wrong of me. |
Thank you very much for the apology...that was very mature of you and I appreciate it. Takes guts to do that in public and I think people could learn from the example.
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: May 14 2005 at 19:18 |
maani wrote:
Manunkind:
I second that emotion!! 
Peace.
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I'm not suggesting for one minute that Dallasbryan's "heart is not in the right place" just that his methods are rather over-bearing.I hope I made my peace with him long ago,after I realised his true purpose
Dallas and Heathy are wonderfully knowledgeable and are an asset and a credit to the forum.
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maani
Special Collaborator
Founding Moderator
Joined: January 30 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2632
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Posted: May 14 2005 at 18:32 |
Manunkind:
I second that emotion!!
Peace.
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Syntharachnid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2005
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 703
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Posted: May 14 2005 at 15:20 |
FloydWright wrote:
Syntharachnid wrote:
My thoughts exactly. That way, the people who listen to progressive metal just because it is metal, and not because it is progressive can be seperate from the people who listen to progressive rock because it is progressive. We'll have less ELP haters on our hands that way, and less people who would wear a Pink Floyd t-shirt one day and a Slayer t-shirt the next. These people don't seem to get along well with the people who wear a Pink Floyd t-shirt because they were actually at the corresponding show.
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Ahem, aren't we stereotyping a little bit?
First off, who says all the ELP haters come from the prog-metal group? As for me, I can't give an opinion of ELP because I've never heard any. Not sure I even want to, though, seeing the behavior that surrounds it on both the pro and con side. I have ENOUGH trouble just from being of an "in-between" opinion on Dream Theater!
Who says all prog-metallers listen to it JUST because it's metal and don't care about the progressive element whatsoever? Certainly untrue for me! I started with Pink Floyd but really found my prog-niche with prog metal. I listen to it for BOTH reasons. With metal I pretty much stick to prog and power.
And what's wrong with wearing a Pink Floyd shirt one day and (in my case) a Killswitch Engage shirt the next? It doesn't make me an automatic idiot or jerk or whatever. And it's not like I do it just for looking cool...I genuinely like both styles, and I can hold my own just fine with a bunch of Floyd fans. And did it not occur to you that a LOT of people are quite simply too young to have seen a Floyd show? And that's certainly not their fault...that's really thanks to the band's inaction and don't-give-a-rip attitude. But just because I am young, it doesn't mean I don't know my stuff and cannot appreciate the music. PF came first. Then some other prog...then metal. This is why I use a Floydian name and a metal avatar, because I genuinely like and appreciate both.
Please, do not broadbrush people; this really drives me up the wall. Would you like me to broadbrush all Pink Floyd fans as stoners when I know very well that's not the case? I think we should all keep our stereotypes to ourselves. It's getting REALLY old and makes this forum very unpleasant for a lot of people. |
Apologies, sombody has already set me straight in another thread. Just so that you know, I'm only fourteen myself, and have never seen a Pink Floyd show. I justified my comment by thinking to myself "Hey, I can say that, because I don't wear Floyd t-shirts!"
All the same, that last post was very wrong of me.
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Manunkind
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2005
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Points: 2373
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Posted: May 14 2005 at 05:57 |
Tony R wrote:
Joren wrote:
Tuxon and Ivan: If you'd like to LEARN, then just visit the threads in subgenresubforums that you know little about! Is it that hard? |
If I want to "learn" about a band or type of prog,I go to the reviews section or the Featured CD Area of the forum....
I go on the forum to discuss prog music in general,but above all else,to have FUN !
People like DallasBryan are very knowledgable but it is the preachy nature of those posts that put me off !
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DallasBryan, Dick Heath, Phillippe and the rest of you who present all these obscure bands here - PLEASE don't get any less 'preachy'! Keep those whose recognition is long overdue coming! I really appreciate what you do.
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"In war there is no time to teach or learn Zen. Carry a strong stick. Bash your attackers." - Zen Master Ikkyu Sojun
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: May 13 2005 at 23:46 |
Yony R wrote:
| If I want to "learn" about a band or type of prog,I go to the reviews section or the Featured CD Area of the forum....
I go on the forum to discuss prog music in general,but above all else,to have FUN !
People like DallasBryan are very knowledgable but it is the preachy nature of those posts that put me off ! |
I started with Internet around 98 or 99, and by that time I only knew about 10 or 20 progressive bands at the most.
I joined at least 10 forums since them and learned about more than 100 bands. It's true that reviews and Prog' enciclopedias help a lot, but in my case a healthy discusion of two or more experts about a determined band can teach me a lot.
For example, I heard Dallas Bryan talking about DUN-Eros and instantly searched for a couple of songs, now I'm waiting for my CD that I bought last week.
It's also a fact that I come to the forums to have fun.
Joren wrote:
| Tuxon and Ivan: If you'd like to LEARN, then just visit the threads in subgenre sub forums that you know little about! Is it that hard? |
No it's not hard Joren, but it's human that you'll visit much more a forum about the genre that you like most, in my case 90% of my visits will be to the Symphonic forum and I'm sure that would almost never visit a Zeuhl forum for example.
Iván
Edited by ivan_2068
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Arsillus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 26 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 7374
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Posted: May 13 2005 at 19:49 |
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Yanns
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 25 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 999
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Posted: May 12 2005 at 17:51 |
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Of course, thanks for everything Maani.
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: May 12 2005 at 10:21 |
Joren wrote:
Tuxon and Ivan: If you'd like to LEARN, then just visit the threads in subgenresubforums that you know little about! Is it that hard? |
If I want to "learn" about a band or type of prog,I go to the reviews section or the Featured CD Area of the forum....
I go on the forum to discuss prog music in general,but above all else,to have FUN !
People like DallasBryan are very knowledgable but it is the preachy nature of those posts that put me off !
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
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Posted: May 12 2005 at 08:27 |
Joren wrote:
Tuxon and Ivan: If you'd like to LEARN, then just visit the threads in subgenresubforums that you know little about! Is it that hard? |
A few problems with that, Joren;
1) If people don't know too much about a particular subgenre, they are less likely to visit a separate forum on the topic than investigate an ongoing thread on it in a single main forum. The willingness to learn is not enough.
2) No-one comes here principally to learn, surely? I would have thought that most people come here to have a good time and discuss prog music in all its forms.
3) Subdividing Prog into subgenres is divisive. It's bad enough as it stands, without enforcing some kind of artificial additional subdivisions.
4) No-one agrees on what prog is, let alone the subgenres! You might be clear in your own mind what the subgenres are - but I bet I'd find reasons to disagree...
Edited by Certif1ed
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terramystic
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 776
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Posted: May 11 2005 at 14:21 |
Joren wrote:
Tuxon and Ivan: If you'd like to LEARN, then just visit
the threads in subgenresubforums that you know little about! Is it that
hard? |
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OKAY, WE HEARD YOU...BUT...
