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rogerthat 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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 Posted: March 15 2015 at 01:16 |
 The Sloth wrote:
Rogerthat, you're simply taking the self-hating side of the coin. You know great prog isn't about the number of notes played, and you also know that this forum is more valuable than Twitter. There are people on this site discussing music which has meant something to them for 40 years. |
Great prog isn't, yes. And likewise, I would be far less hasty than some of the commenters here to assume that great soul or even great hip hop is bound to be inane and intended to appeal to deficient attention spans merely by virtue of its genre. I worded my response harshly because it sometimes, perhaps often, becomes necessary to hold up a mirror to progheads so that they can see the implications of what they are saying.
This forum is more valuable to me than Twitter because I don't use my twitter handle at all. But others may derive more value of Twitter so why should I judge their choices. And I have made some good friends on facebook. There are ways to tap it and have good discussions, yes, if you have the patience for it. Just as if you have the patience to listen to music with tracks exceeding the 5 minute mark. So let's not look for simplistic explanations. Surely if it was only a matter of getting people off facebook or twitter, prog's heyday would have extended all the way to the mid noughties. So that's not the issue. Besides, prog rock bands too tap into resources like fb to spread the word so why on earth would that be a bad thing. People who are too distracted to sit through long tracks of music would have done likewise pre-internet as well. That in a way is how rock and pop music came to supplant jazz. People who have the patience will give the music the time it demands regardless.
Edited by rogerthat - March 15 2015 at 01:17
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Cristi
Special Collaborator
Crossover / Prog Metal Teams
Joined: July 27 2006
Location: wonderland
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Points: 41381
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Posted: March 15 2015 at 03:02 |
A lot of people don't even know what prog is. Most of the people I talk to just say "what's that?" when I mention progressive rock is my favorite music to listen to. I know two or three people that listen to prog (and one of them is my older brother  ). I don't dare say I'm knowledgeable, but I introduced a couple of my friends to some prog music.
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Raff
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Joined: July 29 2005
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Points: 24392
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Posted: March 15 2015 at 05:41 |
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Lots of people find classical music, jazz or opera boring as well. Generally speaking, people tend to have short attention spans, and avoid anything that requires too much concentration. On the other hand, these days I find a lot of prog boring as well, especially those bands/artists that tend to crop up regularly in prog sites' Best of Any Given Year lists.
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5093
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Posted: March 15 2015 at 05:50 |
samus88 wrote:
I've developed this theory (in the colloquial sense of course) on why people find prog boring... because they don't like music. As simple as that. People listen to singers sing peotry with some background music to go with it. That's all there is to it. I asked tons of mainstream radio-friendly music listeners to hum songs and none of them could hum the actual music aside from the vocal melodies. And even some of them would not hum the melody itself but actually SING the words. People still think a song is a poem sung with background music.
I on the other hand, listen to music. Which of course includes the vocals, but no the lyrics. People don't understand how "i do it", but it's rather simple. Do you know every language in the world? Then either you only listen to "music sung" in the languages you know, or you know how to listen to a melody without paying attention to the words. I listen to every song as if it were in a language I don't understand. That's how most of my favorite prog albums are sung in italian and I don't know a single word. The singers melt my heart with their voices and melodies, but I don't know what they say. It doesn't take away from the musical experience. For most people a song they can't understand is useless. Well, music has no language, that's it. If you want poetry, read poems.
Another example to add to my claim is that when you introduce a song to someone like that, the first thing they ask you is "what is it about?". They're unable to enjoy a song on the merit of the music itself, they need words or it's not good to them.
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No. Anglo-American Pop is hugely popular all over the western world, also among many people who do not understand English. Understanding the lyrics is completely unimportant to a lot of people for enjoying a Pop song.
Having said that, 'Boring' is not the word I usually hear people saying when they hear what I listen to. And I agree that many people often do not get the actual music even in a Pop song but concentrate on the vocal melody only, and often with a lot of difficulty as it becomes evident if you go to a karaoke bar. Many people have difficulty telling the correct interval between two notes and replicate a melody correctly in tune even for a song they have listened to hundreds of times. I guess that Musical education in basic school is rather missing in many countries, at least that's the case in my native Spain. Perhaps that's why in countries with more tradition of musical education such as Sweden or the UK, where young people often play in brass bands etc, there is a bit more love for Prog. Just guessing, I may be wrong.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: March 15 2015 at 06:56 |
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A song is in essence a poem set to music. You look at the work of classic songwriters like Burt Bacharach and their songs usually have an elegant vocal melody that lends itself easily to lyrics and puts the spotlight on the singer's phrasing. Most prog singers don't have the phrasing of a Karen Carpenter. They may not need to because that's not the point of prog but having those expectations - of a pleasing vocal melody and elegant phrasing - of a SONG is legitimate imo. A good starting point would be to not describe prog rock tracks as songs to anybody to whom you are trying to introduce it to. They are more like unorthodox explorations in music which often involve vocals but are not necessarily dependent on vocals to drive the music. Upon which you may find that most people are not interested in the conversation because they just want to listen to songs. And again, that's fine, different strokes for different people. Everybody doesn't have to engage with music from such a left brained perspective as prog demands.
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5093
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Posted: March 15 2015 at 08:15 |
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^ Indeed, nobody calls a movement of a Concerto or even a Cantata or an Aria from an Opera 'a song'.
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Mascodagama
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Joined: December 30 2006
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Posted: March 15 2015 at 10:55 |
Because what's boring or interesting is essentially subjective, a matter of taste...? Many people just don't have a taste for any form of progressive music - so be it. From the perspective of my own personal taste: 1. Some prog actually is boring. 2. Some prog that isn't boring can make demands of the listener. Its charms are not always obvious. If you don't pay attention it can pass as a blur of stuff that makes little sense. If you do pay attention you may find that you don't like the effort involved and tune out that way. 3. There is also plenty of prog that I think is interesting, accessible and fun - if people have an open mind, which not all do.
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samus88
Forum Newbie
Joined: September 05 2008
Location: Buenos Aires
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Points: 27
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Posted: March 15 2015 at 11:47 |
Padraic wrote:
Total BS. Why can't people accept that other folks have different tastes without resorting to these ludicrous assertions?
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How about reading the rest of my post instead of making ridiculous assertions yourself? The people I'm talking about are REAL people, dude. In my country at least, people who listen to mainstream music on the radio, listen to the vocals only. A song without lyrics is not a song, I've been told that literally by a lot of people. I'm not pulling anything out of a hat.
Gerinski wrote:
No. Anglo-American Pop is hugely popular all over
the western world, also among many people who do not understand English.
Understanding the lyrics is completely unimportant to a lot of people
for enjoying a Pop song. |
I'm from Argentina, so naturally my post about "people" is about people from my country who I talk to. Some understand english and some don't. Those who do, and listen to pop music, think exactly the way I described. No lyrics, no song. Those who don't understand english, simply don't listen to music in english. They listen to songs in spanish (from the latin america or spain, of course), and again, a song to them is a man or a woman singing poetry. The music is irrelevant to them.
Edited by samus88 - March 15 2015 at 11:53
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Can you tell me where my country lies?
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RoeDent
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 08 2009
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 850
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Posted: March 15 2015 at 15:13 |
Mascodagama wrote:
Because what's boring or interesting is essentially subjective, a matter of taste...? |
And that is one of the most frustrating things about music. You hear something and are utterly blown away by it. It gives you goosebumps, and hits you on an emotional level that not many other things can. And yet, you go to another person, very excited and enthusiastic, play it to them, and it does ab-so-lute-ly NOTHING to them. You are left deflated, and doubting your own experience of that music. "Was it really that magical...?"
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micky
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Posted: March 15 2015 at 15:50 |
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whoot!!! oh yeah.. on a roll here.
because prog fan keeps insisting Genesis is one of the greats of prog... which in fact they do as much to show that prog in the wrong hands can be DEADLY BORING!!!
I do love the extremes in prog rock.. you really had to be good to do it right.. yet we got a bunch of 2nd and 3rd rate groups that thought with a Rickenbacker, a stack of keys.... and some quaky concept THEY too could be prog.
nothing bettter than great prog..
nothing more boring than soporific prog...
and there is damn well...nothing worse than bad prog...
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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emigre80
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 25 2015
Location: kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 2223
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Posted: March 15 2015 at 15:57 |
RoeDent wrote:
Mascodagama wrote:
Because what's boring or interesting is essentially subjective, a matter of taste...? |
And that is one of the most frustrating things about music. You hear something and are utterly blown away by it. It gives you goosebumps, and hits you on an emotional level that not many other things can. And yet, you go to another person, very excited and enthusiastic, play it to them, and it does ab-so-lute-ly NOTHING to them. You are left deflated, and doubting your own experience of that music. "Was it really that magical...?" |
I agree, what makes music magical is so subjective that I never worry that other people find prog boring (in my case, the topic is fundamentally irrelevant because practically no one I know has even heard of prog, except for my husband, who is also a proghead). However, just because music you adore does nothing for other people doesn't detract from its value for me. If someone else hates something that I can't stop listening to, so what? I like what I like, whether other people do or not.
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5093
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Posted: March 15 2015 at 16:07 |
samus88 wrote:
I'm from Argentina, so naturally my post about "people" is about people from my country who I talk to. Some understand english and some don't. Those who do, and listen to pop music, think exactly the way I described. No lyrics, no song. Those who don't understand english, simply don't listen to music in english. They listen to songs in spanish (from the latin america or spain, of course), and again, a song to them is a man or a woman singing poetry. The music is irrelevant to them.
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I'm Spanish (from Spain), and let me tell you, lots of Spanish people do not understand two words of English and yet they love the songs by Lady Gaga, Robbie Williams, Bon Jovi, Michael Jackson or whatever else popular music from the UK or the US. I have also worked a lot with Japanese and have been twice to Japan, where karaoke is the national entertainment after work hours, where you can see lots of them who do not understand sh*t of English yet trying to sing Sinatra's classics or The Beatles or whatever, with a terrible accent of course.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: March 15 2015 at 17:20 |
The real problem is that most people want music to be simple enough as a relaxation instrument.
They want to give nothing, no need to think, no need to understand the lyrics or the concept.
Prog requires attention, something most folks aren't willing to give.
For example, it took me years to like Trespass, most people won't listen something twice if they don't understand it the first time.
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HackettFan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2012
Location: Oklahoma
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Points: 7946
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Posted: March 15 2015 at 17:22 |
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Although it rings true that there are people who don't like anything without lyrics - I've met some of them as have many of you, there are enough purely instrumental pieces that have been quite popular in their time to call that into question as an explanation. If total affection for lyrics explained everything, how did Telstar or Chuck Mangione's Feels So Good get popular? I'd also point out that there is plenty of Prog with lyrics and plenty of Prog that is short.
Edited by HackettFan - March 15 2015 at 17:25
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Terakonin
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 15 2015
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 355
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Posted: March 15 2015 at 17:33 |
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Most people I know treat music as background noise, they want a repetitive thudding beat to tap their feet to as they do something else- they don't actually listen to the music itself- to appreciate progressive music, you need to actually focus on the sounds instead of letting them hang in the distance. Often when I ask people if they've heard Dark Side of the Moon, they say something like "Of course. My (insert relative here) plays it all the time and I hear it as I work around the house." They just don't quite understand.
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emigre80
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 25 2015
Location: kentucky
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Points: 2223
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Posted: March 15 2015 at 19:42 |
Terakonin wrote:
Most people I know treat music as background noise, they want a repetitive thudding beat to tap their feet to as they do something else- they don't actually listen to the music itself- to appreciate progressive music, you need to actually focus on the sounds instead of letting them hang in the distance. Often when I ask people if they've heard Dark Side of the Moon, they say something like "Of course. My (insert relative here) plays it all the time and I hear it as I work around the house." They just don't quite understand. |
There's an Ed Sheeran video on youtube (Thinking Out Loud) that has garnered 325,000,000+ views. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp-EO5I60KA Hearing it once is more than enough - it's simplistic and pretty uninteresting pop. If that's what most people want, that's what they want, and it keeps it a whole lot less crowded around here. Question: if you have shared it with 325 million other people, is music still special? I would say not. I prefer my music special. Call me a snob, you won't be the first. 
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Padraic
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Posted: March 15 2015 at 19:50 |
samus88 wrote:
Padraic wrote:
Total BS. Why can't people accept that other folks have different tastes without resorting to these ludicrous assertions?
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How about reading the rest of my post instead of making ridiculous assertions yourself?
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What ridiculous assertion did I make?
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Terakonin
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 15 2015
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 355
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Posted: March 15 2015 at 19:51 |
emigre80 wrote:
Terakonin wrote:
Most people I know treat music as background noise, they want a repetitive thudding beat to tap their feet to as they do something else- they don't actually listen to the music itself- to appreciate progressive music, you need to actually focus on the sounds instead of letting them hang in the distance. Often when I ask people if they've heard Dark Side of the Moon, they say something like "Of course. My (insert relative here) plays it all the time and I hear it as I work around the house." They just don't quite understand. |
There's an Ed Sheeran video on youtube (Thinking Out Loud) that has garnered 325,000,000+ views. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp-EO5I60KA Hearing it once is more than enough - it's simplistic and pretty uninteresting pop. If that's what most people want, that's what they want, and it keeps it a whole lot less crowded around here. Question: if you have shared it with 325 million other people, is music still special? I would say not. I prefer my music special. Call me a snob, you won't be the first. |
I honestly prefer it special as well. The few times songs I actually like make it to mainstream acceptance, they are overplayed to the point that I can't stand them any longer.
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samus88
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Posted: March 15 2015 at 20:32 |
Padraic wrote:
What ridiculous assertion did I make?
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That what I said was TOTAL BS. As if I lied to get some prog elitism across or something. What I've said is just my expanation for what people have told me they like or not. You can disagree all you want but you don't get to call BS on my post. You're more than welcome to come to my country and ask random people about music. You'll get the same answers I did throught all my life. Songs are poems to most pop listeners. To me that means they don't like music. And just so we're clear on how I'm not an elitist, I make the same argument for people who don't like death metal for example. Show them a song, first thing they say "I can't understand what he's singing". Lyrics are everything for most people.
Edited by samus88 - March 15 2015 at 20:34
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Can you tell me where my country lies?
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Padraic
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Posted: March 15 2015 at 20:39 |
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Wow. OK then.
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What makes people find Prog boring?
