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Rip Van ProgWinkle 
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Joined: August 01 2009
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 Topic: Changes in Prog Popularity Over Time
Posted: September 28 2009 at 20:42 |
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I am new to this site, so perhaps this point has been made before or is obvious. But just in case it is not.
Some have talked about how the most popular prog groups/albums of all time all come from a couple of 1970s groups. So, if one uses the software on this site, the top rated albums of all time are from Genesis, Yes, Floyd, Crimson, etc. They are all produced in the 1970s, and they tend to be dominated by the symphonic prog category.
But now think about what are the highest rated albums from 1990 ( when prog begins to reemerge) to the present. The top albums are dominated by progressive metal, with Riverside, Dream Theater, and Pain of Salvation each having two albums in the top 15. Only one album is symphonic.
What can one say about this? Well, obviously progressive metal emerged as a new form of music and has really overtaken (dominated?) the symphonic stuff.
Any other thoughts about this?
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Tarquin Underspoon
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Joined: September 12 2009
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Posted: September 28 2009 at 20:46 |
Interesting observation. I think it may be that prog metal is a relatively new genre, and at the time that, say, Images and Words was released, it was totally unique and very influential. Perhaps it has something to do with the perception that modern-day symphonic acts are, for many, just echoes of the heyday of the 70s?
In general, though, I believe we are currently living in the most prog-friendly time since the early-to-mid 70s. Lots of great prog coming out these days  |
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"WAAAAAAOOOOOUGH! WAAAAAAAUUUUGGHHHH!! WAAAAAOOOO!!!"
-The Great Gig in the Sky
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Isa
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 26 2009
Location: California
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Posted: September 28 2009 at 22:58 |
I completely agree that prog overall seems very respected and liked the past few years. I think progressive metal emerged the way it did, not because they were carrying the banner for prog in the nineties (Marillion was doing that in the eighties... not much fruition from that.  ), but what happened for prog metal is similar to what happened to prog rock. Metal was not something all that tapped into as far as musical diversity, even by the early nineties. All you had in the late eighties was hair metal and thrash metal, pretty bland stuff on both sides of the isle if you ask me. People were getting tired of the same ol' commercial crap and wanted something new. That's how the psychedelic scene led into prog rock and how the 80s metal scene led into prog metal. Similar circumstances, really. And Images and Words as kind of the ITCOTCK of prog metal, it might seem... 
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The human heart instrinsically longs for that which is true, good, and beautiful. This is why timeless music is never without these qualities.
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Evan
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Posted: September 29 2009 at 01:12 |
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I think a large part of it that there's still uncharted territory in metal. It's hard to be original in symphonic prog nowadays.
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Petrovsk Mizinski
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Posted: September 29 2009 at 01:55 |
 Evan wrote:
I think a large part of it that there's still uncharted territory in metal. It's impossible to be original in symphonic prog nowadays.
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theBox
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Posted: September 29 2009 at 01:58 |
...could also be that TOO many of the people here, discovered prog via dream theater, opeth and the like and SOME of them just decided to venture into "older prog". I was one of them some 12 years ago  . Come to think of it, it's only natural...
Edited by theBox - September 29 2009 at 02:05
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Mr ProgFreak
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Posted: September 29 2009 at 02:02 |
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^ exactly. The 1990s were the decade of Prog Metal simply because the genre came into existence in the late 1980s ... there was also a revival of Symphonic Prog, but Prog Metal was new and exciting at the time, while most of the new Symphonic Prog bands had a hard time continuing the genre and doing something new while staying within the "limits" of Symphonic Prog. Another way of putting it: They wanted to sound like the old bands and at the same time do something new. Then of course there was also Neo Prog ...
Prog Metal had the advantage of being something completely different, and nobody expected it to sound like any of the 70s prog bands.
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Mr ProgFreak
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Posted: September 29 2009 at 02:05 |
theBox wrote:
...could also be that TOO many of the people here, discovered prog via dream theater, opeth and the like and SOME of them just decided to venture into "older prog".
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Well, you can't blame people for listening to the music of their era first and foremost. I am a metal fan ... and that will never change, no matter how many genres I branch out to, I won't forget where I began. 
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theBox
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Posted: September 29 2009 at 02:09 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
^ exactly. The 1990s were the decade of Prog Metal simply because the genre came into existence in the late 1980s ... there was also a revival of Symphonic Prog, but Prog Metal was new and exciting at the time, while most of the new Symphonic Prog bands had a hard time continuing the genre and doing something new while staying within the "limits" of Symphonic Prog. Another way of putting it: They wanted to sound like the old bands and at the same time do something new. Then of course there was also Neo Prog ...
Prog Metal had the advantage of being something completely different, and nobody expected it to sound like any of the 70s prog bands.
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I should add that (to my mind at least) prog metal was (and still is) WAY more accessible to the younger crowds, as it had considerable exposure in the METAL press as well, as opossed to the symphonic bands who were (and continue to be) arguably more underground.
Edited by theBox - September 29 2009 at 02:24
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theBox
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Posted: September 29 2009 at 02:12 |
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fuxi
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2006
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted: September 29 2009 at 02:59 |
theBox wrote:
...could also be that TOO many of the people here, discovered prog via dream theater, opeth and the like and SOME of them just decided to venture into "older prog". I was one of them some 12 years ago. Come to think of it, it's only natural... |
You must be right. Many prog metal fans sooner or later discover classic symphonic prog. But I wonder: do many of them also start exploring other types of prog, such as Canterbury Scene, Krautrock, jazz-rock, Italian prog or RIO?
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theBox
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Posted: September 29 2009 at 03:03 |
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friso
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Posted: September 29 2009 at 03:27 |
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I came here on PA when I only knew about Arena and the first King Crimson album. Now I listen to all the subgenres mentioned by Fuxi except for RIO. I never liked metal prog very much.
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Petrovsk Mizinski
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Location: Ukraine
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Posted: September 29 2009 at 03:36 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
theBox wrote:
...could also be that TOO many of the people here, discovered prog via dream theater, opeth and the like and SOME of them just decided to venture into "older prog".
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Well, you can't blame people for listening to the music of their era first and foremost. I am a metal fan ... and that will never change, no matter how many genres I branch out to, I won't forget where I began.
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Yep, pretty much it for me too. Metal is always the thing I come back to. I've taken breaks from metal before but I can never leave it behind, it's pretty much part of what makes me who I am I believe. Edit : Although FWIW I got into Pink Floyd, Genesis and Yes before I actually heard anything that was considered prog metal, unless you consider Master of Puppets prog metal though, which I head before the 3 aforementioned bands.
Edited by Petrovsk Mizinski - September 29 2009 at 03:38
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npjnpj
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Posted: September 29 2009 at 08:01 |
Personally I can pinpoint the origins of my interest in prog to exact moment in time and to one album: Deep Purple in Rock.
My point concerning prog music classification is: At the time there wasn't such a big distinction between rock bands and prog bands, they were all making this new music, albeit in a different way.
There wasn't an overwhelming amount of bands to consider, if you were interested in such music you knew most of them after a fairly short while if you invested the interest in contemporary music.
The only distinction was between commercial and our ‘unusual’ music, these were worlds apart.
I was lucky enough to ride along on this wave without being aware that there was such a big difference between Deep Purple, Kansas, Supertramp and King Crimson for instance until much later. They just coexisted and offered exciting things in their own individual ways. Sure, there were preferences, but that’s all they were.
The divide really only developed later. Not really sure how that came about, but I have the suspicion that punk had a role to play there, sadly there was a sudden animosity, even seeming to border on hate that drove the wedge in. Suddenly the rock-prog split was there, including supporters and deriders.
So in a way I feel pretty lucky in not having to jump in in the middle of this history and having to decide where my preferrences lie, and then to stick to them for some reason.
I could go on, but I feel very uninteresting today. And old, oh so very old.
I just realised that this isn’t actually on topic any more, but as I’ve written it now, it’d be a shame to chuck it away.
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TODDLER
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Posted: September 29 2009 at 08:12 |
fuxi wrote:
[QUOTE=theBox]
...could also be that TOO many of the people here, discovered prog via dream theater, opeth and the like and SOME of them just decided to venture into "older prog". I was one of them some 12 years ago. Come to think of it, it's only natural... |
You must be right. Many prog metal fans sooner or later discover classic symphonic prog. But I wonder: do many of them also start exploring other types of prog, such as Canterbury Scene, Krautrock, jazz-rock, Italian prog or RIO?[/QUOTE
A good question. I have had the experience of chatting with fans of prog metal. Not on this site but at prog fest's. Being quite older and growing up on the old school prog, many prog metal fans couldn't understand why I disliked Dark Side Of The Moon. But you see, I disliked it when it became over played. To me it was just a commercial rock album, while to many others it's considered to be a masterpiece. There were many commercial efforts from the big 5 or 6......Jethro Tull, Yes, ELP, Pink Floyd etc; that I had no respect for at the age of 15 and neither did my friends. Why is that so inconceivable to a different generation of prog? Back in 1972, it's not like just a few of us felt this way, so why is it so hard to believe? I enjoy White Willow more than some of the quote on quote masterpieces that continue to remain in history as monumental works of art. I see them as fringe efforts when compared to the Canterbury style, Krautrock, jazz-rock, Italian prog and Rio.
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Marty McFly
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Posted: September 29 2009 at 10:14 |
hmm, I discovered prog because of Jethro and Pink, old classic way. I've realized this metal sentiment and wanted to give it full thread, so thank you for it. It's true and it's not limited only on prog metal, but also tech/extreme and post/experiment metal.
There are even people, who rate badly new more "normal" prog, just because it's new.
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There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my
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moshkito
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Posted: September 29 2009 at 10:17 |
Hi,
I think the Internet helped make those bands from the early days ... often times, a lot more important than they were at the time .... while also creating a small monster that does not exist.
The "prog" giants, as we mention them today, did NOT have as much respect then as many other bands, and in fact, Genesis did not really hit it big in the States until after "The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway" ... remember that "Selling England by the Pound" wasn't even released in America until like 4 months later I think it was ... it became a huge seller in Europe ... and a couple of stations in New York lambasted some record companies!
In Santa Barbara, we had played SEBTP a lot on KTYD but the other competing FM station was a top ten station and they did not. KLOS and KMET in LA, in general, were by that time "big time" hit rock stations and Genesis was not as yet that big ... but might have had one play at 3AM ... but there were stations like KNAC and some other lesser stations that were blasting Genesis from here to everywhere. The Tower records on the Strip didn't even have SEBTP and I have to buy the Import copy which was 6 bux more! ... they had 2 more copies of it. Moby Disk had exhausted their copies and Jim said that they could not keep enough of them going ... and no one else in Santa Barbara was capable of playing VDGG or Peter Hammill or dare play Tangerine Dream, Ash Ra Tempel and Alan Stivell ... in prime time like Guy Guden did ... and no one else could --- there simply was not the appreciation for music ... other than the top of the pops mentality. You should have heard the comments about Golden Earring ... well we won't discuss Mr. XYZ's on Gentle Giant either ... and ... as the example of how people did not know the difference between "music" and "hit" ... and this is STILL the same today ... and even here on this board.
ELP was played regularly as Lucky Man and then later the song from Trilogy had made them big players in the FM circles. KC was a rare listen, and then was usually slipped in underneath at odd hours. Led Zeppelin, The Who were the biggies then ... specially on FM radio.
From our point of view and record sales and such, for the LA area, it was stations like KTYD (Space Pirate Radio mainly) and KNAC and some of the smaller stations that made these bands come alive along with many others, like Nektar, PFM, Le Orme, Banco and the german music scene. You can easily check the reviews of all this stuff in the Rolling Stone, and even they usually ignored a lot of this stuff and once called Genesis pretentious fairy tale music. And this was much unlike Melody Maker in London that was running some nice articles and reviews of Genesis ... for example.
Today, given their history, it is quite easy to think, and say, that they are bigger, but the fact is that they are not ... but they have history on their side ... a lot of today's bands ... have not had as much history to compare with/to.
I don't think that the folks that liked Genesis and Gabriel then, ever stopped liking them now ... even with the Phil Collins edition of the band. I don't think that the audiences of today that listen to so much progressive stuff would not (THEN) listen to some of the other things that were around ... but as is the case in a board like this, the tendency is to discuss the better known bands and not much is usually mentioned or discussed of other bands that were also as valid and important in what we have come to call "progressive" movement ...
All of these ... are way more popular now than ever ... and I suppose that we could say that we are adding to their popularity.
Edited by moshkito - September 29 2009 at 10:56
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UpsideDown Ocean
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Posted: September 29 2009 at 10:18 |
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the topic starts with a right observation, but i also think one simple thing: prog metal albums have very high reviews because at the time they came out they were REALLY the new big thing...but i also think that POS, Riverside or Opeth are not "strictly" Prog Metal at all...they're contamination between various genres and a prog mentality (crossover for POS, death metal for Opeth, symphonic prog for Riverside), as for me modern Prog Metal is very repetitive and it's all the same (except Redemption, Symphony X and a few others...there would be also Fates Warning if they decided to make a new album, and I read something about it the other day)
So I woulnd't talk about Prog Metal, but about a different way to approach to music...and don't forget that Symphonic Prog is in a very creative period, expecially from Italy and Europe
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moshkito
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Posted: September 29 2009 at 10:37 |
| ... prog metal albums have very high reviews because at the time they came out ... |
... I think that this is slightly over simplified ... there always was ... in New York, and LA (for example -- London had it too) ... a lot of bands already doing metal ... c'mon ... New York Dolls, Iggy and the Stooges, LA had Spooky Tooth (almost), SF had a bunch of minor bands that were hard rock and bashers ... but there was no way to describe them then, and no one had a "name for them" ... today, I would say that those bands helped usher the metal age, and eventually the further generation of that sound with longer pieces of music, that is now considered "progressive" ...
I always thought that the Deep Purple family was a perfect example ... the music was not that great, but it had a lot of GO in their shows and it spawned a metal audience for harder music ... that became identified with metal later on.
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Changes in Prog Popularity Over Time