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progpositivity 
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: December 15 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 262 |
 Posted: February 11 2015 at 17:10 |
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There are indeed different ways to measure 'good' music. For an example from motion pictures, Michael Bay's fourth Transformer's movie "Age of Extinction" contained some very high quality special effects. In that regard, I think it is fair to say that there was some serious "goodness" in terms of quality in that film. But the plodding pace and pedestrian storyline became excruciating over the course of the 2 hours and 45 minute running time. At the 2-hour mark I started feeling like someone was bludgeoning me to death by boredom. So from my perspective, in that regard, there was some serious "lack of quality". (Side Note: A high-tech relatively mindless action fantasy film featuring machines changing their shapes and speaking corny jokes works better as an 80 minute diversion IMO. Come to think of it, that could be a great idea for a 30 minute TV cartoon program! Oh - wait... But I digress...) Professional music productions can be very similar to films in many respects. The production, the quantization, the compression, the studio itself, the producer, the engineer, the instruments, the computers, the packaging, the promotion, any number of different elements sparkle and shine. So they are in some ways quite naturally BETTER than what the indie artist typically can or does produce. The end products, however, can still sometimes be so lacking in elements of content which are so valuable (to you) as to render them virtually worthless (to you). Transformers 4 hired a lot of professionals with their two-hundred-million dollar budget. And they got some very high quality work from those professionals. Even so, I personally value the 1998 film "Pi" more highly, which was created with a budget of only about $60,000. Its special effects were not as 'good' but its premise, pacing, and script were far superior. So from my perspective, both films are simultaneously better and worse than each other. I can overlook shortcomings in budget, special effects, even editing and to some extent lighting IF the premise, pacing and acting are of high quality. My point? Dean's music is simultaneously both better and worse than some of the commercially produced professional music out there. And I can gladly overlook quite a few shortcomings in music production and promotion if the music itself has some content or quality that I highly value. BUT, it is also worth noting that being "indie" doesn't guarantee higher quality in film or in music or in anything else. Sarcasm mode on: "Sure, my production is crappy and my mix is horrible, but my compositions are just as lame as any commercial artists' and my performances are totally substandard. It's all part of the INDIE experience dude!" ;-) Sarcasm mode off And also of course, I should have known what I was in for with Transformers 4. Nobody decepti-conned me into renting it at Redboxt. ;-)
Edited by progpositivity - February 11 2015 at 17:24 |
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Positively the best Prog and Fusion 24/7!
http://www.progpositivity.com |
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jayem
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: June 21 2006 Location: Switzerland Status: Offline Points: 981 |
Posted: February 11 2015 at 12:58 |
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It means you enjoy it
Does it mean you'd enjoy it even more... Or is it "good" according to another standard than enjoyment ?...
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progpositivity
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 15 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 262 |
Posted: February 11 2015 at 12:35 |
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I came across this article in New York Times last Sunday and it made me think of this blog. The article isn't about Prog Rock. It isn't even about music per se. But it deals with some very similar side-effects of Internet distribution and the increasingly fleeting nature of fame attained by independent internet self-releasers of content. Perhaps you will see some parallels as well. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/08/style/15-minutes-of-fame-more-like-15-seconds-of-nanofame.html?_r=0
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Positively the best Prog and Fusion 24/7!
http://www.progpositivity.com |
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progpositivity
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 15 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 262 |
Posted: February 11 2015 at 11:34 |
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<One thing I ask however, is that those bands produce a product that is of a comparable professional standard to a label-released album and they promote and market it to the same professional standard. Is that too much to ask?>
There is varience of competency (and committment level) even from one label to the next... even from the same label based upon their internal politics, strategic vision, and financial health at any given point in time. But, generally speaking, labels represent themselves as having professional core competencies with marketing (which includes packaging). And generally speaking (certainly relative to most self-released material) they do deliver on that promise. For that reason, I'll go out on a limb to say that (remember I am speaking only for myself here) I do think it probably is a bit "too much" for me to expect self-released artists to promote and market their product with quality comparable to that which a reputable quality label provides. But that doesn't mean I have no standards or expectations at all. And I most certainly agree that many self-released artists do not implement even the basic fundamentals of marketing, suffering to varying degrees as a result. So Dean and I have a lot of common ground I think. Pragmatically speaking, however, I just know and have come to accept the fact that we couldn't remove many of the previous Quality Assurance professionals from the distribution process without reaching this endpoint: varying degrees of relative competence and incompetence displayed in the marketplace. Even the vanity (artist paid) options of yester-year invested more time and attention in packaging than what we often see now. But whether I like it or not, 'it is what it is' so to speak. Again, speaking for myself, if the musical product is exceptional (in my subjective opinion of course) with a gigantic prerequisite of if having managed to gain and keep my attention long enough for me to recognize it, I actually have a very wide level of tolerance in all of these matters of packaging and marketing. My stance is as follows: Each artist should allocate their limited time and energy as they choose. But Dean (and everyone else) has every right to complain about those choices.  Speaking as a very tiny fish in the pond of on-line gatekeepers (on-line radio), I will say that artists who achieve at least a minimum amount of professionalism do earn their music more of my time and attention for airplay and/or review consideration. Or stated conversely, significantly sub-standard music submissions get less time to "wow" me or to "win" me over. Does that sound unfair? Let me say it like this and let's see how unfair it sounds... Each artist should allocate their limited time and energy as they choose. But I also have every right-when flooded with a deluge of self-released material- to allocate my limited time and energy reviewing such material as I choose, right? If the artist didn't bother to invest time or energy creating cover art or even a promotional fact sheet, why should I be vilified if I don't have time or energy to heavily invest in mining their full CD for moments of brilliance? I do not believe that I am alone in this line of thinking at all. Suspect analagy alert... sorry but I think this really may help an indie artist somewhere understand by point of view. Talking to guys now...
The lady who didn't wash her hair may have the most beautiful heart. She could even win my heart over. Please understand... I'm not saying she shouldn't win my heart over. (After all a band with terrible packaging can still win me over. It happens on a semi-frequent basis actually.) But before a girl can win me over, she has to gain my TIME and ATTENTION, right? I'm willing to contrast the everyday pretty woman with a professional model (who in this analagy is signed to a label). The 'signed' model benefits from professionals who style, process and present her image to me as a consumer. So I certainly don't expect every lady in the world to meet THAT particular standard of packaging. But she can still demonstrate a minimum of self-respect in packaging, right? OK, I hope I wasn't too sexist with that analagy. But as an indie artist, I really do think it is a functional one. Packaging does matter.
The analagy breaks down because fans aren't particularly jealous. You aren't trying to court the ONE perfect fan. At least I hope not... ;-) It is interesting to note that should you have the good fortune to become commercially successful, early adopters in niche music markets actually WILL tend to jump off your bandwagon, labelling you as a sell-out... even if you haven't particularly changed musically... Anyway, I certainly agree that to whatever extent self-released material attains greater quality in packaging and promotion (and let's not forget the basic product of course), it also has a greater probability of gaining more recognition. As Dean mentioned, this is true of all self released products in general (books, short stories, etc.). Not only music.
Edited by progpositivity - February 11 2015 at 16:27 |
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Positively the best Prog and Fusion 24/7!
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Dean
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: February 10 2015 at 06:31 |
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For the last time - this Blog is not contrary to the 'ideology' of self-releasing. I am a self-released artist myself, just one that eschews Bandcamp ... I do, however, have a SoundCloud account but I don't use it. The initiative to permit the inclusion of self-released albums into the PA was mine alone, and yes this was prompted by the infamous PA tag-line/mission statement. We can never be "complete" if we ignore those artists who release their albums only as digital downloads so I pushed for the inclusion of those artists and produced the Free-Release Policy to accommodate them. This involved convincing my fellow Admins that this was the right approach, and then convincing the Genre Teams to adopt this policy.
Erm... you can assume things of me but you cannot claim that I make assumptions myself unless I actually declare those assumptions. You also cannot assume that Van Gogh never intended to make money from his art - that he only sold one painting in his lifetime is not a declaration that he never intended to sell more. [Because of his dysfunctional mental state the Van Gogh example has always been a poor argument, many art historians believe that what he feared was fame and criticism.] To equate amateur and professional with monetary reward is narrow-minded in my opinion. An amateur artist can do things in a professional manner and a professional artist can do things in an amateur way. Some amateurs earn money and some professionals do not. Amateur and Professional alike should strive to create the same "art" and there should be no distinction between the final work they produce. I am opposed to amateurish art regardless of who makes it. I don't know whether it is in this Blog or one of the plethora of other threads I have posted in, but I actually differentiate between two classes of amateur artist that as yet do not have a clear definition. In this thread, I have sometimes used three terms "Professional Aritst", "Amateur Artist" and "Aspiring Artist". All the young amateur artists you speak of I would classify as "Aspiring Artists". An Aspiring Artist would want to be considered to be on an equal level with a Professionals Artist, an Amateur Artist would not. I class myself as "Amateur Artist".
That is a plea for common courteously and respect for the workload of our evaluation teams. Some of our team members are happy with the flood of evaluations and the backlog that creates, some are not. The more suggestions that are made in any given time-frame the more chance there is that some of these suggestions will be missed or overlooked. The more suggestions that any team has to evaluate increases the calendar-time it takes to do those evaluations, and that makes us look bad. We do not like backlogs and we do not like being made to look bad. This backlog occurs in two places - suggestions that are waiting to be evaluated and cleared suggestions that are waiting to be added to the database. Clearing both are time-consuming processes and the request that people suggesting bands (and again here) provide the information needed to evaluate (samples or links) and the information needed to add them (such as biographies, a suitable band picture, and full discographies) can alleviate that process. Flooding the Suggest New Bands threads with the former and not the latter is not helpful and only adds to the backlog. If you are unwilling or unable to provide all the information the teams require then a request that some restraint is shown in making suggestions is not unreasonable, it should NOT be seen in anyway as a discouragement to suggest "young bands".
The purpose of the site is not to evaluate and add artists to the database. This is NOT an encyclopedia of Progressive Rock; it is NOT a list of every artist and band that made music that can be vaguely seen as progressive in some subjective form or other; it is NOT a historical document; it is NOT a site that promotes artists and their latest releases. The band pages are not up to standard required to carry that level of responsibility. Simply put: it was never designed nor intended to be a comprehensive catalogue of Progressive Rock. We evaluate artists for their suitability for the site, not whether they are good or bad, or worthy or unworthy. It is a review site that allows anyone to review albums (not artists). It is a resource for Reviewers, not a resource for Artists. It is a Prog version of RYM, not a Prog Wikipedia. That's it. The sole purpose of listing artists is for people to review the albums, singles and DVDs released by those artists. Promotion of new artists is a by-product of member and collaborator reviews, it is not the raison d'etre. If no one reviews the albums then listing them here has no promotional value to the artist or the listener.
The keywords in that tag-line are "intends" and "most" and compared to every other progressive rock resource on the interweb we have long since achieved that goal but our work is not finished yet, there is much still to do. Throwing it back in our faces is churlish, if you know of a more complete and powerful progressive rock resource then I please tell us. Removing the "intends" and "most" then if "I" wanted the Prog Archives to be 'the complete and powerful Progressive Rock resource' then "I" would want to see considerably more emphasis put on the band biographies; "I" would want to see those band biographies constantly updated and more rigorously edited and managed; "I" would want to see all those biographies written by members of the site and not copied from Wikipedia or band websites (and certainly NOT written by the artists themselves); "I" would want to see more information on each album listed on each album page; "I" would want to see constantly updated tour information listed on the band pages; "I" would want to see both subjective and objective essays on each band, on the history of Progressive Rock, on each subgenre and on the current Progressive Rock scenes; "I" would want to see the reviews rigorously edited and corrected for spelling, grammar and any factual errors; "I" would want any reviews written by band-members, their friends and family members summarily deleted; "I" would also wish to see the removal of all ratings without a review; "I" would want each band page to include constantly updated links to band websites, Wikipedia entries, LastFM pages, YouTube channels, and their Bandcamp and/or SoundCloud pages. Then and only then would "I" be able to put my hand on my heart and claim that the PA is the complete and powerful Progressive Rock resource. Until such a day dawns, I am content with 'most complete...'. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ However, this Blog has nothing to do with any of that. It is NOT about adding or excluding those self-released artists from the PA. It is NOT about self-released artists and their perceived status. It is about HOW the self-released artist goes about the process of recording, producing and promoting their music. It is NOT about the concept of self-releasing or its relative worth but HOW it is used. It is not about the resources available to the self-released artist but HOW they are used. It is NOT about how successful those artists are, but MORE successful they CAN be. If I was against self-released artists I would simply say "enough" and "stop". ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ PS: If you want to fill your boots for free with over 24 hours of experimental/neo-classical/electronica then I can provide Mediafire links to 27 different albums that I have self-released, and if you want to put some money in Amazon's coffers I can provide links to where you can buy two of these albums as CDs (I do not earn a penny from those sales, the selling price is the lowest you can set on CreateSpace, profit=$0.00). I have another 24 albums waiting to be uploaded if that is not enough for you. Some of them may be "progressive" in some form or other, frankly I could not care any less than I do now about such pigeonholing. Since one of those albums was independently released and made available for purchase as a CD back in 2003 I technically qualified for evaluation as an artist prior to the creation of the Free-release Policy.
Peace out. Edited by Dean - February 10 2015 at 06:41 |
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Komandant Shamal
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2015 Location: Yugoslavia Status: Offline Points: 954 |
Posted: February 10 2015 at 03:30 |
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On the side of this blog, which is quite contrary to that 'ideology' of self-releasing prog rock music, your above mentioned decisions about that inclusion policy of progarchives (I can see that you was an admin) should be pretty logical when we know that the preamble of this site is: *PROG ARCHIVES intends to be the most complete and powerful progressive rock resource*.
But the paradox that emerges like a geyser and sprayed in the air is that the way that you 1) assume that there are really exist two categories of young prog artists - amateurs and professionals - even though you know that 99% of young artists are amateurs as per definition because they are not able to live from their art and that they are releasing their albums just to express themself just like Van Gogh did it at his time though in another media 2) discourage people to suggest the (self-releasing) young bands ("Hopefully, you will exhibit some self-restraint and not become one of those who floods the suggestions thread."). That's inconsistent with this preamble: *PROG ARCHIVES intends to be the most complete and powerful progressive rock resource*. No doubt that it's not a good thing for both the site's preamble and for the self-signed young bands who are tagged themself *prog rock*, who are released the albums and who need to get a chance to be evaluated by this site's expert teams. I hope you don't want that the progarchives' preamble which clearly reads *PROG ARCHIVES intends to be the most complete and powerful progressive rock resource* that to become something like these stupid banners like "The best Chinese restaurant in the World"  |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: February 09 2015 at 06:15 |
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You are wrong on every count. I have no problem with self-released albums and it was MY initiative and determination that enabled such albums to be included into the PA database as bonafide releases on equal terms with label-released albums. Prior to MY creation of the "Free-release Policy" for band submissions self-released artists were not eligible for inclusion here. If it were not for ME self-released artists would be relegated to the "Unsigned Bands" forum and no-one would be able to rate and review their albums. If it were not for MY insistence that self-released artists be permitted a place in the database then you would not be allowed to suggest those self-released artists in the Suggest New Bands threads. At the time I was warned (in fact this was the main objection to allowing self-released artists) that this would open the flood-gates to 1000s of poor quality, amateur "bedroom" artists, whose albums would never get rated or reviewed (since that is the purpose of this site). My concession to this was the additional "rule" that the Genre Teams would be permitted the right to refuse to evaluate those artists at their discretion. If you understand irony then you will understand that these "flood-gates" have indeed opened and my "beef" with the spammers of the suggestions thread has nothing to do with any objection to self-released artists and albums (which I have none) but with the manner in which that flood of self-released bands is submitted. Hopefully, you will exhibit some self-restraint and not become one of those who floods the suggestions thread. I have never theorised that self-release is "more or less the wrong way for new bands" - quite the contrary, it is 100% the correct way. One thing I ask however, is that those bands produce a product that is of a comparable professional standard to a label-released album and they promote and market it to the same professional standard. Is that too much to ask? Edited by Dean - February 09 2015 at 06:16 |
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Komandant Shamal
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2015 Location: Yugoslavia Status: Offline Points: 954 |
Posted: February 09 2015 at 05:12 |
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Nice try Mister Dean but I have learned English in the schools as a compulsory subject and my English is quite sufficient for such a simple sentences quoted above that I can read well that they are without even a hint of that "invisible" ol' English irony and sarcasm.
A member who took a part in a dialogue from 2010, he was even less opponent for self-released prog rock bands at that time that were using Bandcamp and other platforms. Unlike you, he does not listen to self-released albums, but he said that it could be a good thing in the whole story ("I can't see the ability to self-release as a bad thing in any way"). You, as you can see, you listen to it but you are - at the same time - the quite opposing - with this blog - to self-released prog rock in general. And you've been theorized that self-releasing is more or less wrong way for new bands. I think this is the time that denied you.
There actually exists a certain success of some albums. You know it, and I think that you just not want to admit that you was wrong with this blog back in 2010  |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: February 08 2015 at 12:08 |
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Oh dear. Let's put that back into context shall we... Now, I am fully aware that English is not your native tongue and some of its subtleties can be a little difficult to grasp, but the ironic sarcasm of my response to Nick's comment that he almost never listen's to self-released artist should be self-evident to all who read that reply. And by "ironic sarcasm" I mean I do not agree with the statement, so since you disagree with it and I disagree with it then we cannot possibly disagree with each other and we are in agreeance. Whoop-di-sodding-doo. |
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Komandant Shamal
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2015 Location: Yugoslavia Status: Offline Points: 954 |
Posted: February 08 2015 at 11:49 |
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@Dean, you wrote this sentence at the first page of your blog:
IMHO above sentence describes perfectly this blog. Your blog is too pessimistic, it is a perfect example of defeatism and this is not a blog that has passed the test of time and that basic hypothesis that is well shown in the above sentence really was collapsed after a whole range of fantastic self-released prog rock albums released latter.
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jayem
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 21 2006 Location: Switzerland Status: Offline Points: 981 |
Posted: February 08 2015 at 08:21 |
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"one happy chef" adds a professional undertaker to a simple cook, but "one happy cook" still doesn't itch me, maybe later if I become more familiar with english language... |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: February 08 2015 at 06:12 |
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I think we've probably stretched the cook-analogy to breaking point and are perhaps confusing "cook" with "chef" a little too much now (assuming that the translation of cook and chef continues to yield a difference in languages other than English ... chef coming from chief meaning head-cook, whereas cook is merely anyone who cooks).
Erm... I don't have a homepage to display my art or my music. In the early days of the internet I did have a homepage to display my drawing and painting, as this developed I added stories to illustrate that artwork, and then as bandwidth improved I added musical soundtracks to those pieces of art and their stories. Due to the ephemeral and impermanent nature of the internet I have had to move that homepage to several different servers and website providers over the years and now have reached the stage where I have lost the will to continue moving it and rebuilding it every time a service provider decides to change their business plan and screw with its clientele. Without exception, every CD I made followed a concept of some form or other, inspired by a piece of art I had created or a story I had written. With that view, it could be argued that the CDs I made were merely vehicles for the cover-art I was making. I tend to shy away from such epithets as "musician" and "composer", I construct music in the same way as I would paint a picture or write a story and, therefore, regard any piece of music I have created as a construction rather than a composition. Truth be told, I often put more effort and thought into the cover-art than I ever did into the music, though there are pieces of music where that effort is equal, and some where it is vastly greater. I do not see myself as a polymath or a neo-Renaissance man and my personality traits tends to be more rationalist than artist. One thing that struck me as "odd" about constructing music was how alarmingly easy it was to do even with my limited ability as a player of musical instruments and my rudimentary knowledge of music theory. That is not some immodest self-aggrandisement - constructing a complex piece of music from simple motifs, refrains or melodies is not difficult in itself, nor is inventing those musical motifs or refrains to begin with (I believe that anyone who can whistle or hum a tune can do that with ease). My musical aim, if I ever had such a thing, was to experiment with what worked and what did not, and to leave in those mistakes that didn't work and build upon them (that is the nature of experimentation is it not?), the choice of using classic harmonies or breaking-the-rules was mine alone to make. Our ears tell us when a harmony works and when it doesn't, and our ears tell us whether we have resolved a dissonance or not or whether we should even try, and our ears tell us when a piece of music has become boring or tedious and needs to change melody, or key, or meter, or tempo, or just stop. Any listener of music has the ability to know good from bad in their personal estimation. [and to continue this well-worn cook analogy, as an eater of food, I know whether the food I have cooked is good or bad... see Prog Chefs Unite!!! thread]. That this music can (and now does) stand alone for the appreciation and criticism of others is a something that surprises and astonishes me, and now, from the detachment of some nine years since I last 'released' an album, I can listen to it with a degree of neutrality as if hearing it for the first time. I'm not overly disappointed by what I hear. It's not great, but it isn't wholly bad either. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: February 08 2015 at 04:58 |
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Oh gosh.
Considering I have waxed lyrical on a wide gamut of topics related to self-released product in this Blog then that is a very bold and sweeping statement. Now. I have read every word you have posted in this Blog and I cannot actually tell whether you disagree with me or not. If you would care to elucidate then perhaps we can have a rewarding discussion that can expand upon some of the ideas and thoughts I have presented so I can show you the error of your ways and you can show me mine. For by disagreeing with me I can only surmise that you are content with artists releasing any old rubbish in the name of music, without care for detail, integrity or artistry. By disagreeing with me, I can only assume that you do not care whether an artists album is heard by other people or not. By disagreeing with me, I can only presume that your own appreciation of music sets low standards and fails to live up to them. By disagreeing with me, I can only believe that you do not care whether an artist who wants to make a career out of music succeeds or not. By disagreeing with me, I can only conclude that you are part of the listening community engendered with a false sense of entitlement to own what the artist has produced without compensation. By disagreeing with me, I can only infer that artists are not entitled to recognition and reward for their efforts. By disagreeing with me, I can only suppose that you believe that self-released music is an amateur product that can never be regarded as equal to its professional counterpart.  |
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Komandant Shamal
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 02 2015 Location: Yugoslavia Status: Offline Points: 954 |
Posted: February 08 2015 at 04:12 |
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^ Believe it or not, I'v been read all the pages of this blog and I disagree with Dean.
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jayem
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 21 2006 Location: Switzerland Status: Offline Points: 981 |
Posted: February 07 2015 at 16:01 |
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Amazing how generous those Dean + Mark posts are. This would invite us to talk about restaurant chains, and how people singing by heart one happy composer's melody equates people eating the same meal with its special taste "invented" by one happy cook; how artists may not want attention on themselves, but that their works need the attention from at least one person, in order for them to be called "art". I'd asked Dean several month ago why he wouldn't leave a homepage-link to his own art (and had to search for the links on his music left on PA) and ended up listening to tracks each with their own particular flavour, which in the chief thing isn't it, although some pieces seemed to fit classic harmonies, but with curious exceptions here and there... |
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progpositivity
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 15 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 262 |
Posted: February 05 2015 at 17:46 |
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Dean, I'm impressed by how well you "cooked up" that response! Celebrity chefs are akin to entertainers/artists so I think you are spot on identifying them as a appropriate reference point.
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Positively the best Prog and Fusion 24/7!
http://www.progpositivity.com |
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progpositivity
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 15 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 262 |
Posted: February 05 2015 at 17:37 |
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Hi Jayem! Absolutely, yes. I may have stated it in more absolute terms than intended. Please feel free to add "many/a majority of" as a qualifier to anything and everything I write here at PA.. Ahem, well, let me modify that statement. Please feel free to add that as a qualifier to "many" of the things I write... certainly to "a majority of" the things I write here at PA!
Edited by progpositivity - February 05 2015 at 17:37 |
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Positively the best Prog and Fusion 24/7!
http://www.progpositivity.com |
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progpositivity
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 15 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 262 |
Posted: February 05 2015 at 17:29 |
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Good point. The word "resource" may have been unintentionally misleading. We were discussing the marketing challenges faced by independent artists using mercantile terms. I was then attempting to use the same type of marketing language to describe how important (and precious and limited) a potential fan's "devoted time and attention" is to the sales process. So I called that person's "devoted time and attention" a "resource". Perhaps I would have done better to instead refer to it as a 'commodity'. Consumers make decisions about where and how they will "spend" their limited amount of "attentive time" in a very similar manner to the way they make decisions about where and how they will "spend" their limited amount of discretionary income. Speaking as a music consumer, my limited quantity of discretionary "attentive time" is a precious Before a financial sale of music can take place, there is a prerequisite 'transaction' which needs to take place between a musical artist and his target market. The artist needs to get me (his target market) to "pay attention". Therefore, similar to financial currency--my 'attentive time' is a highly valued commodity in the marketplace. My argument was that this I wasn't at all trying to imply that all artists are solely interested only in acquiring 'devoted time and attention'. In the prog marketplace, artists routinely epxress greater interest in pleasing or earning respect from a select group of people, namely music lovers who are like-minded enough in their musical tastes to appreciate the kind of music that the artist values and strives to create. In this respect, the artist is more interested in gaining devoted time and attention from a certain target market of people. As a side-bar, I'm not 100% convinced this is true to the full extent that some of in the prog community might attempt to tell ourselves. But this undoubtedly varies from individual to individual and I'm not trying to point fingers. So allow me to use myself as an example. I've been in a few bands and have recorded some music in my time. And to be honest, generally speaking, I always got a pretty good feeling whenever I noticed anyone genuinely appearing to enjoy music I wrote, performed, or recorded, no matter what their taste was in music. I think the key is that artists often don't want to feel like they have crossed the line to where they have begun creating music they personally disdain solely for the purpose of gaining a 'payment' of some form (whether that be of attentive time, sales, or anything else.) I personally suspect that many proggers criticize certain artists for making commercial career decisions without having much understanding of or appreciation for the pressures involved and the level of accommodation that even some of their most revered musical heroes may have made along the way in order to gain enough visibility for the general public to have ever heard about them in the first place. In any event, I really didn't assign "devoted time and attention" such a high place of prominence in my discussion in order to indict the artist's integrity. I only assigned it such a position of high prominence because it is a prerequisite to sales. So many independent artists (not all but oh so very many) complete the creative process, proceed enthusiastically to the manufacturing process, and then create an online retail internet presence, only to become bitterly disappointed when a mass of customers do not arrive to purchase their product. They may begin to question the quality of their musical product (which isn't always a bad idea...) But their music may be supurb. They may have overlooked the crucial fact that they would need to work to earn 'devoted time and attention' from their target market. Or, perhaps some artists don't care about recognition or sales enough to put the work in. They want to create. And they are content to see who stumbles across it. That is okay too. But I think where Dean and I both fall on this is that such artists shouldn't really complain bitterly about the lack of recognition or sales, right? If I get a crappy looking CDR in the mail with no packaging and a poorly written press release containing typographical errors, can they really expect me to put THAT package ahead of the releases from Cuneiform or InsideOut Records, etc? And Dean, please don't hesitate to step in and to tell me to stop attempting to speak for you. I may be off-base and if I am I apologize in advance. I should probably just say I'm speaking for myself there.
Edited by progpositivity - February 05 2015 at 17:31 |
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jayem
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 21 2006 Location: Switzerland Status: Offline Points: 981 |
Posted: February 05 2015 at 15:23 |
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From what I've understood you mean that there's is more about meeting and feeling a connection than about giving-receiving. It'll be no surprise if I tell you I've never felt comfortable yelling my praise to a band onstage: I was over-excited, dancing like crazy and wanted to sort of eat them. I also felt embarrassed when people were giving me applause when, while playing onstage, I thought I was mediocre, and nobody echoing my feelings when I absolutely believed in what I was playing, hence my distrusting of audiences as soon as music came out of mainstream. I happened to feel deeply connected to a band or a composer while on my own very often, that's how music was wonderful. I genuinely consume music as a kind of wonder-food. However wrong I've read Mark's comment (I didn't know your name, but my greetings to you Mark): "Devoted time/attention is a resource [many/a majority of] artists crave..." would read better. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: February 05 2015 at 13:46 |
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 The cook analogy was the wrong analogy for the point Mark was making, and you're just making it even more wrong because you have misunderstood the comment.Unfortunately, I have been staring at the PC screen for the past 10 minutes trying to think of how to make this analogy work while clarifying Mark's point, but I fear I do not have that skill. Never-the-less I shall continue with the analogy: Artists want to be famous (irrespective of how you define and measure fame), whereas most cooks have no such "need". (aside from celebrity chefs of course). A cook is like an artist on tour - people go to them to eat the food they are famous for cooking just as people attend a gig to hear the musician play the music they are famous for. The cook can keep churning out the same old recipes and the diners at the restaurant will keep coming back for more, just as people will pay lots of money to see The Stones or The Eagles as long as they keep playing "greatest hits" tours. The difference, of course, is the restaurant has a fixed number of tables and can only serve a limited number of people, whereas the artist can play more dates or move up to bigger venues if more people want to see his show. Success to the cook is having a full restaurant every night and success to the artist is also having sell-out shows but can also mean bigger tours and increased sales of their albums. However, the cook does not crave attention in the same way as the touring band does, as long as the diners pay for their food then he's happy. The touring band wants the audience to like the show they put on, sure they want to get paid for being on stage, but they also want the applause, the curtain calls & encores and they want the audience to sing along with them, whoop and cheer, dance around, mosh and hold their cigarette lighters/cell-phones in the air at the appropriate moments. It's all part of the the buzz and the adrenaline rush of performing on stage that the cook will never experience. Cooks in most restaurants are more akin to tribute bands - they 'perform' the dishes created by the head-chef and the diners appreciate them just the same ... no one going to Heston Blumenthal's restaurant expects him to be cooking the food every night. A recording artist is more like the kind of cook who publishes recipe books. He can only sell one copy of each book to each consumer, just as the artist can only sell one copy of each album to each consumer. If he also owns a restaurant then people who have bought the book may book a table in the restaurant, just as when the recording artist goes on tour then people who bought the album will also turn up at the gig. The difference now is most of the people go to the restaurant because of its reputation for good food, not for the popularity of the cook-book, whereas most of the people go the gig because they liked the albums. Of course success of the book and the album is measured by how many copies they sell, yet for a recording artist selling albums can be a secondary concern (if we are to believe what many people have said in this and other threads) - they want to experience the appreciation that a touring artist gets when they perform on stage - the recognition of their talent, appreciation of the music and people taking the time to listen to the album and liking it. How they measure that attention is another matter. |
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jayem wrote:
great post!