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theBox 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2005
Location: Greece
Status: Offline
Points: 427
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 Posted: February 19 2010 at 06:22 |
 Raff wrote:
theBox wrote:
Well, does deleting Prog Related, X-treme and Post Rock/Metal altogether, count as a concrete proposal? No? Yeah, I wouldn't think it did...
Joke aside, I think that Prog Related (AT THE VERY LEAST) reviews, should not be shown in the site's main page, and that is my recomendation.
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If something like that should happen, I would immediately retire all my reviews or other contributions from the site. I am not the kind of person to resort to threats, but this would be taking things too far. I have reviewed a relatively large number of PR albums, because I believe they can be of interest to prog fans, as well as genuinely related to the genre, and I - like the others - have the right not to see them confined into a ghetto just because some people are offended by seeing those reviews on the front page.
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Hey Hey....calm down... that is just MY opinion, and to tell you the truth, I don't think it will ever happen. 
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 06:28 |
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If we genuinely believe there is a problem with the integrity of PA being undermined by the amount of non prog artists currently included in the database, the solution is NOT to sweep what we find offensive 'under the carpet' by excluding such from the front page. I believe that Giles, Giles and Fripp (by way of example) are more important to the lineage of prog than say the 23rd review of an Iron Maiden or Sabbath album (but that's my prejudice cos I think the former suck irredeemably and are about as prog as my Aunt Sandra but love the latter as a non prog related metal pioneer)
Surely what has to be addressed is the admissions policy that allows artists that have proven to be so divisive within the community that their inclusion may have been erm....premature and might actually cause the brethren to exodus ?
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Raff
Special Collaborator
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Joined: July 29 2005
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Points: 24392
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 06:37 |
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Iain, do you want my very honest opinion? I believe that people who leave the site because of an addition they disagree with are immature, and good riddance to them anyway. I wish people could summon such energy when fighting for more relevant causes than the content of a progressive rock database. Though I have stepped away from the site on several occasions, it was NEVER because of a controversial addition, but for much more personal matters.
If people really want to help the site, they should be more active in the forums in a constructive way (i.e. not just bashing what they don't like), and post their own reviews of what they consider prog. There are lots of great PROG albums of the original era that have very few reviews, and/or are never discussed in the forum (I could mention one if you like: East of Eden's Mercator Projected). Why don't those people do something about that, instead of asking for ghettos to be created?
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theBox
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2005
Location: Greece
Status: Offline
Points: 427
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 06:47 |
Raff wrote:
Iain, do you want my very honest opinion? I believe that people who leave the site because of an addition they disagree with are immature, and good riddance to them anyway. I wish people could summon such energy when fighting for more relevant causes than the content of a progressive rock database. Though I have stepped away from the site on several occasions, it was NEVER because of a controversial addition, but for much more personal matters.
If people really want to help the site, they should be more active in the forums in a constructive way (i.e. not just bashing what they don't like), and post their own reviews of what they consider prog. There are lots of great PROG albums of the original era that have very few reviews, and/or are never discussed in the forum (I could mention one if you like: East of Eden's Mercator Projected). Why don't those people do something about that, instead of asking for ghettos to be created?
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I am confused here, are you reffering to me? If you ARE, well, i never left the site because of something that bothered me, and to the you the truth, I came here 3 months before you, although I am not that active of course. I think I was very polite in my posts, and I am entitled to my own opinions and suggestions, which I openly voice. I don't see how this has offended you...
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Raff
Special Collaborator
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Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24392
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 07:02 |
No, don't worry, I would never attack anyone I have been conversing with like that. I was referring to other people that have reacted badly in the past. Sorry for the misunderstanding  !
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 07:17 |
Quite frankly, I dont get what the problem is, this site isnt remotely coming close to being a new Allmusic site and the cries of such is just pointless scaremonguering (sp?). The influence of the original prog bands has spread far and wide throughout the music world to a huge number of genres. A good number of bands that come from music scenes that exist outside of what is considered prog (in a traditional sense) have taken on some of the more important charecteristics of those pioneering bands and made them part of the cornerstones of their music. The result is that the creatin of Tech/Extreme, Math/Post Rock/Metal and a few other geners was nessecary because the existing genres were becoming completely unwheldy and almost unuseable.
Bands are evaluated on an idividual basis and I know that everyone working on a genre team has a good idea of what they consider prog. The whole point of these teams is so that no one person can decide to add a band that may be controversial, but these are people that know their genres inside out and should be trusted to come to a sensible concensus. They also know that to please everybody all the time is a fools errand and so dont even try.
Speaking as a former member of the PMT, I know for a fact that the three metal subs are filled with progressive bands, but that doesnt mean I agree with every single one of them.
TheBox, why do you have to wait for reviews of obscure gems to appear on the front page that you might like, in a sight with thousands of bands thats a terrible way to go about things.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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theBox
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2005
Location: Greece
Status: Offline
Points: 427
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 07:27 |
sleeper wrote:
TheBox, why do you have to wait for reviews of obscure gems to appear on the front page that you might like, in a sight with thousands of bands thats a terrible way to go about things. |
Rest assured, this not my only modus operandi
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 07:37 |
sleeper wrote:
Quite frankly, I dont get what the problem is, this site isnt remotely coming close to being a new Allmusic site and the cries of such is just pointless scaremonguering (sp?). The influence of the original prog bands has spread far and wide throughout the music world to a huge number of genres. A good number of bands that come from music scenes that exist outside of what is considered prog (in a traditional sense) have taken on some of the more important charecteristics of those pioneering bands and made them part of the cornerstones of their music. The result is that the creatin of Tech/Extreme, Math/Post Rock/Metal and a few other geners was nessecary because the existing genres were becoming completely unwheldy and almost unuseable.
Bands are evaluated on an idividual basis and I know that everyone working on a genre team has a good idea of what they consider prog. The whole point of these teams is so that no one person can decide to add a band that may be controversial, but these are people that know their genres inside out and should be trusted to come to a sensible concensus. They also know that to please everybody all the time is a fools errand and so dont even try.
Speaking as a former member of the PMT, I know for a fact that the three metal subs are filled with progressive bands, but that doesnt mean I agree with every single one of them.
TheBox, why do you have to wait for reviews of obscure gems to appear on the front page that you might like, in a sight with thousands of bands thats a terrible way to go about things. |
Yep, the comparisons to All Music are spurious certainly and I know you have considered you post carefully but those bands you identify in bold you would consider not 100% Prog surely ? (I'm not playing the purist card here as that is repugnant to me but you have described with considerable eloquence, prog-related artists)
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 08:54 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
sleeper wrote:
Quite frankly, I dont get what the problem is, this site isnt remotely coming close to being a new Allmusic site and the cries of such is just pointless scaremonguering (sp?). The influence of the original prog bands has spread far and wide throughout the music world to a huge number of genres. A good number of bands that come from music scenes that exist outside of what is considered prog (in a traditional sense) have taken on some of the more important charecteristics of those pioneering bands and made them part of the cornerstones of their music. The result is that the creatin of Tech/Extreme, Math/Post Rock/Metal and a few other geners was nessecary because the existing genres were becoming completely unwheldy and almost unuseable.
Bands are evaluated on an idividual basis and I know that everyone working on a genre team has a good idea of what they consider prog. The whole point of these teams is so that no one person can decide to add a band that may be controversial, but these are people that know their genres inside out and should be trusted to come to a sensible concensus. They also know that to please everybody all the time is a fools errand and so dont even try.
Speaking as a former member of the PMT, I know for a fact that the three metal subs are filled with progressive bands, but that doesnt mean I agree with every single one of them.
TheBox, why do you have to wait for reviews of obscure gems to appear on the front page that you might like, in a sight with thousands of bands thats a terrible way to go about things. |
Yep, the comparisons to All Music are spurious certainly and I know you have considered you post carefully but those bands you identify in bold you would consider not 100% Prog surely ?
(I'm not playing the purist card here as that is repugnant to me but you have described with considerable eloquence, prog-related artists)
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Its entirely dependant on the band. If we're talking Enslaved then no, they arent 100% prog, they're more Black Metal. But then you can look at Between the Buried and Me and IMO they started out as a metalcore band but now are an extreme prog metal band, the same goes for Mastodon but with a different starting point (sludge metal rather than metalcore). In the end the defigning factore for me is how far has the band come from its original point and how much prog is in there. Saddly this is entirely subjective and as such can lead to a lot of controversy, which is what the teams are for so that a group of people can reach a concensus (or at least a majority vote) on whther a band should be added or not.
I think one of the reasons that we have so much controversy is because the vast majority of prog bands that follow one of the traditional forms of our music have allready been added, its just a case of waiting for a new side project from Roine Stolt or Dan Britton, or for that rare event when a completely new band pops up. Its either that or sit around anding no one and prettending prog is dead, when its not. Frankl;y I'm very glad that we have all of this cross polination because I just look at the current British prog scene to see how dull and monotonous it can get without new influences.
But lets not foget that many of the classic bands werent 100% prog even during the height of their "progyness". For instance More Fool Me and Dusk from Genesis, Pink Floyds Wish You Were Here, several of the shorter tracks on Meddle and Money, Jethro Tull's Aqualung etc. For the most part these arent bad songs but are all part of classic albums which just goes to show that being "100% prog" isnt always a nessecaty.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 09:08 |
Raff wrote:
Iain, do you want my very honest opinion? I believe that people who leave the site because of an addition they disagree with are immature, and good riddance to them anyway. I wish people could summon such energy when fighting for more relevant causes than the content of a progressive rock database. Though I have stepped away from the site on several occasions, it was NEVER because of a controversial addition, but for much more personal matters.
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I agree with you, there are several bands that I don't agree with, but made the fight in the moment and kept my mouth shut after added.
But if the official position says that this site will cease to be Prog Archives o be General Music Archives, I honestly have no interest, I'm here for Prog,. if lets say 5% of the bands here are not Prog, I just ignore them, but if Prog ceases being our main interes, is a different thing.
Iván
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 09:14 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Raff wrote:
Iain, do you want my very honest opinion? I believe that people who leave the site because of an addition they disagree with are immature, and good riddance to them anyway. I wish people could summon such energy when fighting for more relevant causes than the content of a progressive rock database. Though I have stepped away from the site on several occasions, it was NEVER because of a controversial addition, but for much more personal matters.
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I agree with you, there are several bands that I don't agree with, but made the fight in the moment and kept my mouth shut after added.
But if the official position says that this site will cease to be Prog Archives o be General Music Archives, I honestly have no interest, I'm here for Prog,. if lets say 5% of the bands here are not Prog, I just ignore them, but if Prog ceases being our main interes, is a different thing.
Iván |
Ivan, do you believe that there are currently sufficient numbers of non-prog bands in the database (discounting prog-related and proto) to warrant any concerns that PA's integrity as a specialist prog rock site is being undermined ?
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 10:12 |
Bonnek wrote:
JLocke wrote:
Bonnek wrote:
1) Not adding bands is not an option. That is the same as becoming irrelevant.
Sure it is. We deny bands from inclusion all the time here.
As someone corrected me already, I meant "Not adding bands at all."
Alright, then.
2) Adding bands the way it's done now must be a hell of a job for those involved and creates many new additions that are frowned upon. Especially in the subs ExitTheL mentionned.
Every band that is added ultimately fits the sub-genre they end up in, otherwise they wouldn't get added. If some members don't like those bands, it doesn't have any baring on what the team leaders say. That's how it should be.
Completely agree. My suggestion below is only for the relief of people who don't want to see the Bowie, Sabbath or My Dying Bride reviews on the front page.
Those people are too far leaning in the other direction. The non-prog bands that are already here still had enough prog ties in order to be included. I have no problem with those cases, and some people will complain about anything. I'm not nearly as prudish, but even my patience begins to wear thin after Dire Straits have been suggested for the upteenth time.
3) So is there an alternative? Could PA indulge a general rock or whatever section?
No. The closest we have to that is 'Prog-Related', and that should give enough elbow room to satisfy anybody.
Sure it does, but I think the non-prog reviews thread of TheGazzardian is an excellent idea.
Only, with those reviews in a thread it will not be very practical to look them up.
So that's why I would support Finnforest's idea to have a separate sub "All Rock" or "Other Stuff we Love", where all collaborator's could add any band they want, providing they add bio's, full disco, reviews, etc.
Any review in this section wouldn't even have to appear on the home site.
Then what is the point of it? The people who want these bands added also want them to be considered 'prog' by the mighty Prog Experts, otherwise they wouldn't suggest them to begin with. It's all about people not being able to openyl admit that they like all different types of music. They get into prog rock, but into all the elitism bullsh*t, then they want to have their cake and eat it, too. So they suggest some of their favorite non-prog bands for inclusion in hopes that it will somehow 'validate' them. If those bands were added anyway, but not held in the same high regard as the other artists listed here, that wouldn't please the fans of those bands anyway, and would clutter up the site; seperate section, or not.
Now, if you are suggesting an entirely different site run in the same fashion, that would make the most sense. A 'sister site' of some sort to this one with all different staff members and all different bands listed, yet still formatted the same way as PA would be the only way I could think of to please everybody. That way the databases would work the same way. but all of the bands would be given the proper treatment.
Aside from that happening, I don't see a solution other than destroying what this sits is all about in the process of appeasing everyone's whims.
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Bonnek
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Joined: September 01 2009
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 4515
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 10:38 |
Originally posted by JLocke
The people who want these bands added also want them to be considered
'prog' by the mighty Prog Experts, otherwise they wouldn't suggest them
to begin with. It's all about people not being able to openyl admit
that they like all different types of music. They get into prog rock,
but into all the elitism bullsh*t, then they want to have their cake and
eat it, too. So they suggest some of their favorite non-prog bands for
inclusion in hopes that it will somehow 'validate' them. If those bands
were added anyway, but not held in the same high regard as the other
artists listed here, that wouldn't please the fans of those bands
anyway, and would clutter up the site; seperate section, or not.
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I can't speak for other people and have no clue to their motives. To me one sub is not inferior to another sub so an extra non-prog section wouldn't make it inferior. But that's still besides the point for me. I'm not here to push my favourite bands to stardom but I'm here to try to share my love for the prog artists that I know and to discover new ones. That's why I am in favour of opening the site to a wider range of music because I have the idealistic belief that it could draw in more people into prog. Of course a sister site is a nice idea as well.
Edited by Bonnek - February 19 2010 at 10:38
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JLocke
Prog Reviewer
Joined: November 18 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4900
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 10:47 |
Bonnek wrote:
I can't speak for other people and have no clue to their motives. To me one sub is not inferior to another sub so an extra non-prog section wouldn't make it inferior.
But that's still besides the point for me. I'm not here to push my favourite bands to stardom but I'm here to try to share my love for the prog artists that I know and to discover new ones.
That's why I am in favour of opening the site to a wider range of music because I have the idealistic belief that it could draw in more people into prog.
Of course a sister site is a nice idea as well.
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We have 22 categories on this site already! Two of which are dedicated to housing a wide variety of non-prog bands. If that won't draw newcomers to this site, nothing will. We don't need to add another section to this place just because somebody likes listening to Talking Heads alongside of Mahavishnu Orchestra. There is plenty of room in the world for both, and a Prog Site doesn't need to appeal to the fans of every single band in existence. It's unrealistic, and not what this site is about.
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Syzygy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 16 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 7003
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 10:58 |
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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'
Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 12:57 |
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I don't get what the big deal with Wire is. Pink Flag was annoying.
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Camel666
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 25 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 133
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 13:15 |
Syzygy wrote:
These are bands that do not define themselves as prog, and who are not generally perceived as such either.
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I second this.
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verslibre
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 01 2004
Location: CA
Status: Offline
Points: 15105
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 13:50 |
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I just got a handle on what post rock "is" last year...post punk would be what...Presence Of Soul?
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Raff
Special Collaborator
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Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
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Points: 24392
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 13:52 |
verslibre wrote:
I just got a handle on what post rock "is" last year...post punk would be what...Presence Of Soul? |
No, it refers to some of those Eighties bands that are commonly placed under the 'new wave' umbrella.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: February 19 2010 at 14:44 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
Ivan, do you believe that there are currently sufficient numbers of non-prog bands in the database (discounting prog-related and proto) to warrant any concerns that PA's integrity as a specialist prog rock site is being undermined ?
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I believe there are very few outside PR, and PA has it's integity safe...Well, until today.
But adding a non Prog genre because "It's intelligent", would be very dangerous IMHO.
Imagine Prog Archives with:
- Go Go's
- Blondie
- Kim Carnes
- OMD
- The Human League
- Depeche Mode
- Euryrithmics
- Mr Mister
- Peter Schilling
- Thomas Dolby
That's New Wave, which is part of the Post Punk movement, and I believe this bands have no place in PA.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 19 2010 at 14:45
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
A new prog sub-genre : post punk
