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Topic Closedthe missing link between prog and punk!

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Borealis View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: the missing link between prog and punk!
    Posted: May 28 2005 at 14:57

Originally posted by amused 2 KAOS

yes, i beleive it exists, and it can easily (for the most part) be found at
your local cd shop. it is "frankenchrist" by the dead kennedys. the reason
why i say this is because
1.have you heard of a punk album that takes up both sides thats only 10
SONGS LONG!?!!!?!?!??
2.its a punk album that only has 1 song that is traditionally punk on the
whole album, most of the others are very prog like.
3.most of the songs are about 5 minutes long (which is right about in
between punk and prog song lengths) 

Let's agree on something. It's not because a band do long songs that it's progressive! Prog music got tons emotions, great instrumentation, and all, it not just music with long songs!

Also, please, people, stop saying you think every bands you like are prog! It's possible, in your life, you will encounter a band you like, and that this band will not be prog... It,s possible really...

Vive le Québec libre!...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2005 at 14:17
If a missing link between them is found it will be just that, a missing link, belonging to neither of the two genres.
Life seemed to him merely like a gallery of how to be.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2005 at 14:13
...bother...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2005 at 14:12
The missing link is of course "Nadir's Big Chance" by Peter Hammill, named by Johnny Rotten himself as a major influence.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2005 at 14:09
Originally posted by James Lee

^ we know, already- you don't like punk and refuse to give any ground. If you find it to be too soft on the punk issue around here, you could always try a country music forum ).

Hardy-har

Originally posted by James Lee

TMV has a thorough punk influence that is immediately obvious to anyone who can tell the difference between MTV-friendly emo and The Fall.

How so?

Originally posted by James Lee

Sure, you can fool yourself that all punk is three chords and shouting, but that's the same mental reductionism that claims prog is just odd time-signatures and pomposity.

No it isn't, perhaps punk music has grown different over time (Although it still fails to impress me) but three chords and shouting was the original idea, while the idea of prog was to expand the idea of what popular music can be. I always thought punk had the opposite intentions. I guess I'm just ignorant for not following it well enough to see any large change in it, but then again people like you haven't made much of an effort to tell me.

Originally posted by James Lee

Trying to identify the specific punk influence in TMV is like trying to identify the difference that the blues made to the Rolling Stones...

Oh, come on, don't compare the Rolling Stones, a group who took the blues and changed it to fit thier liking, to The Mars Volta, who must have completely rearranged the idea of what punk music should be if any was used in thier music. That's like saying rnb influenced Presly in the same way that the blues influenced Nirvana.

But if any punk was incorporated in The Mars Volta's music, the least you could do is try to explain how to me instead of saying it's impossible.

Originally posted by James Lee

I wouldn't compare the DKs to prog, just like I wouldn't compare Rush with John Cage...it's apples and oranges.

Why not compare them? Different things can be compared. And I was asking how they compared not because I saw no prog in thier music, but because I've never heard any.

Originally posted by James Lee

But basically, the level of musicianship and discipline among the various members of the DKs was at a fairly high standard- not just 'for punk' but for any non-virtuoso genre of music, which includes a majority of prog. The quality of songwriting was incredibly high; lyrically, Biafra (an admitted fan of Zeuhl) rarely disappoints in any of his projects...whereas a fair number of prog bands can be said to suffer in that respect.

Technical musicianship may transend the genre of punk rock, but have they done anything that transends popular music? I'm actually asking, I don't know. If thier music truly is that technical, maybe they don't even fit in the punk genre.

Originally posted by James Lee

Do they belong filed next to Yes in your collection? Of course not...but IMAO they wouldn't sound too out of place next to Zappa, for instance...

Is that because they're innovative, or because they're music can sometimes be silly?

Life seemed to him merely like a gallery of how to be.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2005 at 14:04

punk is a sh*t

they killed the rock

a plague of lighthouse keepers
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2005 at 19:00

^ we know, already- you don't like punk and refuse to give any ground. If you find it to be too soft on the punk issue around here, you could always try a country music forum ).

TMV has a thorough punk influence that is immediately obvious to anyone who can tell the difference between MTV-friendly emo and The Fall. Sure, you can fool yourself that all punk is three chords and shouting, but that's the same mental reductionism that claims prog is just odd time-signatures and pomposity. Trying to identify the specific punk influence in TMV is like trying to identify the difference that the blues made to the Rolling Stones...

I wouldn't compare the DKs to prog, just like I wouldn't compare Rush with John Cage...it's apples and oranges. But basically, the level of musicianship and discipline among the various members of the DKs was at a fairly high standard- not just 'for punk' but for any non-virtuoso genre of music, which includes a majority of prog. The quality of songwriting was incredibly high; lyrically, Biafra (an admitted fan of Zeuhl) rarely disappoints in any of his projects...whereas a fair number of prog bands can be said to suffer in that respect.

Do they belong filed next to Yes in your collection? Of course not...but IMAO they wouldn't sound too out of place next to Zappa, for instance...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2005 at 15:56
Originally posted by KeyserSoze

Originally posted by 46and2

The Mars Volta also ATDI was a punk band

The Mars Volta? When?

Haha, I agree, nobody can name one Mars Volta song with punk influence. Some say Frances The Mute because it's hard driving, but so is a lot of music.

The Dead Kenedys may have progressed beyond most punk bands, (which isn't hard to do) but how do they compare with other prog groups? (I'm actually asking, someone answer)

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2005 at 13:07
Originally posted by Certif1ed

The Stranglers were fantastic, and only their singles really counted as punk - but they were way beyond almost any other punk act in the UK.

I've always seen/heard them as a sort punk Doors - but don't ask why. And I guess these guys being around for donkeys' years (as had the three members of Police), meant they knew something about the business. And as I keep ranting on about Stranglers & Friends Live album  brings punks and progs together - a devote Stranglers fan locally reckons Fripp and Hammill's work on Tank (with the Strangler's in support) is the definitive version...............

The Damned forayed into progressive realms quite frequently - and psychedelia too, covering "White Rabbit" (Great Society/Jefferson Airplane) and "Alone Again Or*" (Love). "Smash It Up Part II" and "History of the World" are well worth checking out, as is "Grimly Fiendish" - a pop/psychedelic masterpiece of the 1980s.

Their cover of the Ryan Brother's Eloise is also most  memorable. Which has just reminded that there wasn't only the Moody Blues with big orchestras behind them on record but the Walker Brothers, The Righteous Brothers, The Ryan Brothers, The Gibb Brothers (aka BeeGees**), (which groups so far were really brothers....) David McWilliams, and absolutely so on.

* Talking Love covers (as opposed to Love handles) did Alice Cooper ever release 7+7 on CD - I have the 7" 45prm single??

**Anybody got a decent copy of the HeebeeGeeBees' Never Mind The Originals Here's The Hebeegeebees - better still their second LP, -which was withdrawn from circulation when Dire Straights threatened to sue....................

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2005 at 07:53

The Stranglers were fantastic, and only their singles really counted as punk - but they were way beyond almost any other punk act in the UK.

The Damned forayed into progressive realms quite frequently - and psychedelia too, covering "White Rabbit" (Great Society/Jefferson Airplane) and "Alone Again Or" (Love). "Smash It Up Part II" and "History of the World" are well worth checking out, as is "Grimly Fiendish" - a pop/psychedelic masterpiece of the 1980s.

Around the same time, the Dukes of the Stratosphear (AKA XTC) released a real cracker of an album called "25 O'Clock", which was hyped as a long-lost masterpiece of psychedelia. Maybe it wasn't long lost at the time, but it is now - and it is a masterpiece!! Early Floyd fans should check it out especially.

I'm not sure about "Motivation Radio" being punk in any way, but the other Gong offshoot; Planet Gong and the Here and Now band released "Floating Anarchy - Live 1977", which is a great mix of proggy space rock and a punky sound.

Here and Now themselves created a fantastic late-Clash/Police style of reggae/punk, which is also unutterably superb; check out "Fantasy Shift" and to a lesser extent "Theater". The cover of Bowie's "The Man Who Sold The World" on "Fantasy Shift" is brilliant.



Edited by Certif1ed
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2005 at 07:51
Originally posted by sigod

I have one word for you ladies and gentlemen;

Cardiacs






Kings of Pronk!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2005 at 07:45
Originally posted by proggin' justin

Dear all,

How could you possibly forget those most wonderful The Stranglers, who seem to me to be so much on the proggy side of things and so little on the punk? Just take any of their pieces, either lengthier or not, and pay attention to their arrangements, never too simple, always attractive. From the sensational rendition of Walk on By to Golden Brown, to their punkiest tracks, to me it all seems to point to a prog approach. See their never-tired organ, frolicksome bass lines, intellipunk guitar and energetic & intricate & inspired drumwork and above all, their carefullness for detail and maybe you'll think so too. Maybe it was only their energy and somehow innate attitude (along with their powerful sound ) that made them be looked upon as punk. Still, their loyalties seem to go to something complex, simultaneously intelligent and vital and full of musicianship. Whatever it is, however mongrel-like they may be, they really are a noble mongrel.

 The Stranglers rules!!!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2005 at 06:44
Planet Gong is Punk Prog.
CYMRU AM BYTH
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2005 at 06:42
Originally posted by Blacksword

IHowever, it's mostly crap so dont buy.  

You're right, Killing Joke are a joke.

"...misty halos made visible by the spectral illumination of moonshine."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2005 at 06:40

I reckon this album is the link between the two genres. This is a prog rock album from a punk band. There are virtually no punk elements to it at all! Apparently super pretentious frontman Jaz Coleman sacked his punk rhythm section for not being 'progressive enough'

However, it's mostly crap so dont buy.  

Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2005 at 06:37
Originally posted by KeyserSoze

Originally posted by 46and2

The Mars Volta also ATDI was a punk band

The Mars Volta? When?

Omar and Cedric from TMV were in ATD-I.  They left the band just as it was about to break into the big time, i.e. become very very big.  ATD-I were purveryors of "emo", a punk/hardcore derivative.  You can hear some of sounds that later developed into TMV, but only a slight hint.

TMV are 1,000 time better than ATD-I!

"...misty halos made visible by the spectral illumination of moonshine."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2005 at 06:27
I have one word for you ladies and gentlemen;

Cardiacs


I must remind the right honourable gentleman that a monologue is not a decision.
- Clement Atlee, on Winston Churchill
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2005 at 04:57

Dear all,

How could you possibly forget those most wonderful The Stranglers, who seem to me to be so much on the proggy side of things and so little on the punk? Just take any of their pieces, either lengthier or not, and pay attention to their arrangements, never too simple, always attractive. From the sensational rendition of Walk on By to Golden Brown, to their punkiest tracks, to me it all seems to point to a prog approach. See their never-tired organ, frolicksome bass lines, intellipunk guitar and energetic & intricate & inspired drumwork and above all, their carefullness for detail and maybe you'll think so too. Maybe it was only their energy and somehow innate attitude (along with their powerful sound ) that made them be looked upon as punk. Still, their loyalties seem to go to something complex, simultaneously intelligent and vital and full of musicianship. Whatever it is, however mongrel-like they may be, they really are a noble mongrel.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2005 at 03:58
If you want to hear a punk masterpiece that's almost at a prog level check out the Decline from NOFX.  It's a 25 minute continuous song that alternates between moods, tempos, themes and it's complex enough to satiate any prog fan.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 27 2005 at 01:52
IMO, VDGG and WIRE are the elusive missing link between prog and punk.

As stated above, VITAL is prog played with a low-fi raw (punk) approach and is absolutely terrifying, in a good way.

WIRE, in particular chairs missing (1978) and 154 (1979) are prog-punk incarnate: music that is stripped down to its core in order to reveal the raw creative power behind rock'n'roll. WIRE were all substance over style, covering more ground in three minutes songs than your average classic prog band could in 20.
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