Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - A sudden flash of insight
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedA sudden flash of insight
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>
Author
Message
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Rabid View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
Status: Offline
Points: 512 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: A sudden flash of insight
    Posted: June 05 2010 at 00:33
I been doing a bit of thinking about what the term 'progressive' really means, cos' I asked people on the forums, but no-one came up with an explanation. I reckon (and it's just MY opinion) that the term 'progressive' refers to the chord progressions used, and not to 'progress', itself. The first bands I can remember being labelled as 'progressive-rock' were ELP, Yes, Genesis, etc.....(I'm from the UK, btw....we did'nt really get  Zappa here, until the 200 Motels era...) bands that did'nt follow the blues-orientated style eg : Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, etc.
 
Would it be fair to say this? (Maybe I'm dead wrong...I dunno' Confused ).
 
Would appreciate any views, tho.  Smile
 
 
"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
Back to Top
cstack3 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: July 20 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6754 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2010 at 01:10
Originally posted by Rabid Rabid wrote:

I been doing a bit of thinking about what the term 'progressive' really means, cos' I asked people on the forums, but no-one came up with an explanation. I reckon (and it's just MY opinion) that the term 'progressive' refers to the chord progressions used, and not to 'progress', itself. The first bands I can remember being labelled as 'progressive-rock' were ELP, Yes, Genesis, etc.....(I'm from the UK, btw....we did'nt really get  Zappa here, until the 200 Motels era...) bands that did'nt follow the blues-orientated style eg : Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, etc.
 
Would it be fair to say this? (Maybe I'm dead wrong...I dunno' Confused ).
 
Would appreciate any views, tho.  Smile
 
 

Where are you in Britain?  Notice the bass I'm playing in my icon, that's a Hugh Manson (Steve Howe's luthier) custom fretless.  Hugh's a nice chappie in Exeter, I used to live there!   

Don't know where all this "progressive" labeling began, back in the early 1970's, the bands such as Yes and ELP were categorized as either "classical rock" or "art rock."   Very theatrical bands including Genesis and even Alice Cooper were termed "theater rock"!   

The blues-based stuff was largely "hard rock", Jimmy Page used to bristle at Zep being labeled as heavy metal!   Deep Purple, Jethro Tull, etc. were labeled hard rock, and Sabbath were one of the few metal bands in the beginning.  

The origin of the term "progressive rock" or even "prog" is mystifying to me, as the essence of any rock music is evolutionary and progressive.  Same with "math rock," what the hell is that?  ALL music is based upon mathematics!  Pythagoras proved that in the 6th Century B.C.! 

So, your guess is as good as mine, I know that Peter Banks (ex Yes, Flash) and John Wetton have both spoken out publicly about the inanity of the term "prog" (Banks saying he'd prefer if they called it "Dave," and Wetton sniffing that, these days, "prog was defined as music including one Mellotron and a Rickenbacker bass!"

I also find it odd that jazz-rock fusion gets lumped in with the symphonic stuff, but I suppose opera, ballet, fugue etc. are all lumped into "classical music."  

Cheers! 
Back to Top
cstack3 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: July 20 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6754 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2010 at 01:27
Here's Wetton's interview with his thoughts on the label of "prog":

AL: It promised too much, I think...

JW: It promised too much, yeah. And also, now it's back to everyone... Everyone who wants to be progressive, in inverted comas, want to use mellotrons, Marshall amps and Rickenbacker basses, you know, it's all back to 1973, which is hardly progressive. So it's very much regressive. But it seems that progressive has become a generic term for a style of music which involves time changes, classical moods... 

http://www.elephant-talk.com/wiki/Interview_with_John_Wetton_in_Big_Bang_Magazine
Back to Top
Atavachron View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 64367 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2010 at 01:32
When a musical movement grows to the point where it becomes a style and then, yes, a 'genre', it is given a term.  This is mostly for convenience and ease of communication;  i.e. you might call Hendrix psych rock or bluesrock but not heavy metal, that would be used for Sabbath or Priest, etc.   Imperfect but direct. 


 
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2010 at 02:06
Thanks a lot for posting that interview, cstack3. Clap  Wetton's insights (what a coincidence! LOL) were superb and explain quite well what I miss in the prog of the now compared to the old scene.  I don't think people are necessarily trying to play it safe now, but the concept of risk taking has changed and is more, er, sonic, i.e, related to the sounds used than of substance.  
Back to Top
Rabid View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
Status: Offline
Points: 512 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2010 at 02:15
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by Rabid Rabid wrote:

I been doing a bit of thinking about what the term 'progressive' really means, cos' I asked people on the forums, but no-one came up with an explanation. I reckon (and it's just MY opinion) that the term 'progressive' refers to the chord progressions used, and not to 'progress', itself. The first bands I can remember being labelled as 'progressive-rock' were ELP, Yes, Genesis, etc.....(I'm from the UK, btw....we did'nt really get  Zappa here, until the 200 Motels era...) bands that did'nt follow the blues-orientated style eg : Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, etc.
 
Would it be fair to say this? (Maybe I'm dead wrong...I dunno' Confused ).
 
Would appreciate any views, tho.  Smile
 
 

Where are you in Britain?  Notice the bass I'm playing in my icon, that's a Hugh Manson (Steve Howe's luthier) custom fretless.  Hugh's a nice chappie in Exeter, I used to live there!   

Don't know where all this "progressive" labeling began, back in the early 1970's, the bands such as Yes and ELP were categorized as either "classical rock" or "art rock."   Very theatrical bands including Genesis and even Alice Cooper were termed "theater rock"!   

The blues-based stuff was largely "hard rock", Jimmy Page used to bristle at Zep being labeled as heavy metal!   Deep Purple, Jethro Tull, etc. were labeled hard rock, and Sabbath were one of the few metal bands in the beginning.  

The origin of the term "progressive rock" or even "prog" is mystifying to me, as the essence of any rock music is evolutionary and progressive.  Same with "math rock," what the hell is that?  ALL music is based upon mathematics!  Pythagoras proved that in the 6th Century B.C.! 

So, your guess is as good as mine, I know that Peter Banks (ex Yes, Flash) and John Wetton have both spoken out publicly about the inanity of the term "prog" (Banks saying he'd prefer if they called it "Dave," and Wetton sniffing that, these days, "prog was defined as music including one Mellotron and a Rickenbacker bass!"

I also find it odd that jazz-rock fusion gets lumped in with the symphonic stuff, but I suppose opera, ballet, fugue etc. are all lumped into "classical music."  

Cheers! 
 
East Kent....but I'm an ex-Londoner......(bass player, too).  I feel a bit sorry I started this topic, now.....I don't want to upset anyone on the Prog-Archives site...it's just that people keep telling me 'this is prog', 'that's prog', but no-one actually seems to know what 'prog' is......me, included !!! I'm happy to just call a band a rock band if they make rock music.....doesnt matter if they're heavy, symphonic, metal, whatever.....I guess I've just got an inquisitive nature.
 
Lovely bass, btw.....(I'm GREEN with envy !!!!.......Wink.......I know Cornwall better than Devon, but if I ever get to Exeter, and I've won the lottery, I'll know exactly what to spend it on !!!!! ).
 
Cheers 2U2 !!!  Smile
"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
Back to Top
Rabid View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
Status: Offline
Points: 512 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2010 at 02:38
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

When a musical movement grows to the point where it becomes a style and then, yes, a 'genre', it is given a term.  This is mostly for convenience and ease of communication;  i.e. you might call Hendrix psych rock or bluesrock but not heavy metal, that would be used for Sabbath or Priest, etc.   Imperfect but direct. 


 
 
 Any ideas on who first 'coined the phrase' progressive?  Just seems to be a curious choice of expression to use........sounds good, tho, don't get me wrong....I'm not knocking it !! (Sounds a bit OGWT, to me..).
 
Big smile
 


Edited by Rabid - June 05 2010 at 02:42
"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
Back to Top
yanch View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 03 2010
Location: Lowell, MA
Status: Offline
Points: 3247 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2010 at 06:44
It always amazes me how important it is for lots of people-not necessarily those of us on this site-to label  things. I know humans like to be able to easily identify something, including music, but it seems we go over board to name things. What is labeled "prog" covers such a wide variety of music it almost becomes meaningless. Would those of us who love this genre care if it didn't have a name?
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2010 at 06:55
Sorry to keep dragging this up every time this question arises, but this flyer from The Friars Cub in Aylesbury dated August 1969 uses the terms Progressive Music and Progressive Rock in it's opening paragraphs.
 
To put this into perspective Aylesbury is a small town in Buckinhamshire, UK - some 30 miles from London, the club was established to bring underground music out of the city into the provinces. Notable alumni over its 15 year existence include Genesis (who practically had a residency there in the late 60s early 70s), one of Peter Gabriel's first solo gigs was at Friars and Marillion (Market Square Heroes is "set" in Aylesbury market square). Full gig listings and other flyers can be viewed here: http://www.aylesburyfriars.co.uk/ and there is a wiki entry here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aylesbury#Popular_culture. The guys at Friars didn't invent the terms, they were in common usage within the underground scene at the time (the wording on the flyer is in the past tense, implying that they were used before then).
 
Now, I am not claiming that this flyer proves the existence of a genre called Progressive Rock in 1969, the word "progressive" is being used as a adjective to describe the whole gamut of non-commercial,  underground rock music as a general scene, movement or even an attitude. For example bands like The Groundhogs were called progressive blues at that time. It was a short time later that specific styles of music became collected under the banner of Progressive Rock. Certainly in the 70s we were a lot freer with the term than we are now (believe it or not Wink).
 
I have no doubt that the term Progressive Rock (a noun) is derived directly from the phrase progressive rock (an adjective) and describes bands and music that progressed on from standard Rock - bands that were forward thinking.
What?
Back to Top
Slartibartfast View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam

Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2010 at 08:35
Progressive is fairly amorphous.  
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
Back to Top
Devonsidhe View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: April 21 2010
Location: PDX, OR
Status: Offline
Points: 74 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2010 at 08:45
Originally posted by yanch yanch wrote:

It always amazes me how important it is for lots of people-not necessarily those of us on this site-to label  things. I know humans like to be able to easily identify something, including music, but it seems we go over board to name things. What is labeled "prog" covers such a wide variety of music it almost becomes meaningless. Would those of us who love this genre care if it didn't have a name?
The label things seems to come up in quite a few different topics, not just music.  Mostly when labels have become too limited for what they were intended.  In the beginning, labels are great to help someone identify and learn about something.  In its own way, organize.  But, after the reader becomes familiar with what the labels represent, then the reader understands far more than what the labels CAN represent.  Then labels are more useful to those outside the understanding but can still remain a bridge to those who have yet to join. In other words: "labels?  We don't need no stinkin' labels."Tongue
Even a man who stumbles around in the dark will influence those he does not see.
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2010 at 09:10
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

Progressive is fairly amorphous.  

However...

 
...aren't even remotely Progressive Wink
What?
Back to Top
AtomicCrimsonRush View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: July 02 2008
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 14256 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2010 at 09:18
Amorphous huh?
 
Should be in the other archives
 
I float in both now and thought I was in the wrong one for a moment
 
Now Progressive - what it means to me is progressing during a song from style to style, time sig to time sig, pattern to pattern, motifs to riffs to genres and back - the songs progress as they play, the instruments are used progressively . I guess thats how I define it in its simplest form. But its more complex as we all know... 
Back to Top
Mellotron Storm View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: August 27 2006
Location: The Beach
Status: Offline
Points: 12939 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2010 at 11:04
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Here's Wetton's interview with his thoughts on the label of "prog":

AL: It promised too much, I think...

JW: It promised too much, yeah. And also, now it's back to everyone... Everyone who wants to be progressive, in inverted comas, want to use mellotrons, Marshall amps and Rickenbacker basses, you know, it's all back to 1973, which is hardly progressive. So it's very much regressive. But it seems that progressive has become a generic term for a style of music which involves time changes, classical moods... 

http://www.elephant-talk.com/wiki/Interview_with_John_Wetton_in_Big_Bang_Magazine


I agree with what Wetton says here.It's a generic term for a style of music. That means to be a new progressive band you don't have to play something new and different(hence progressive). We get hung up on the word progressive,if it was a different word there would be no issue. Actually there probably would beLOL. If it was called Art Rock people would say the bands of today aren't arty enough,again getting too caught up with the word.
 
"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"

"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
Back to Top
cstack3 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: July 20 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Status: Offline
Points: 6754 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2010 at 12:34
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Sorry to keep dragging this up every time this question arises, but this flyer from The Friars Cub in Aylesbury dated August 1969 uses the terms Progressive Music and Progressive Rock in it's opening paragraphs.
 
To put this into perspective Aylesbury is a small town in Buckinhamshire, UK - some 30 miles from London, the club was established to bring underground music out of the city into the provinces. Notable alumni over its 15 year existence include Genesis (who practically had a residency there in the late 60s early 70s), one of Peter Gabriel's first solo gigs was at Friars and Marillion (Market Square Heroes is "set" in Aylesbury market square). Full gig listings and other flyers can be viewed here: http://www.aylesburyfriars.co.uk/ and there is a wiki entry here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aylesbury#Popular_culture. The guys at Friars didn't invent the terms, they were in common usage within the underground scene at the time (the wording on the flyer is in the past tense, implying that they were used before then).
 
Now, I am not claiming that this flyer proves the existence of a genre called Progressive Rock in 1969, the word "progressive" is being used as a adjective to describe the whole gamut of non-commercial,  underground rock music as a general scene, movement or even an attitude. For example bands like The Groundhogs were called progressive blues at that time. It was a short time later that specific styles of music became collected under the banner of Progressive Rock. Certainly in the 70s we were a lot freer with the term than we are now (believe it or not Wink).
 
I have no doubt that the term Progressive Rock (a noun) is derived directly from the phrase progressive rock (an adjective) and describes bands and music that progressed on from standard Rock - bands that were forward thinking.

GREAT thread, thanks for everyone's thoughts!!   These labels do get quite frustrating, anyone remember when Jethro Tull won the Grammy for "Best Heavy Metal band" in 1989?  LOL

We fans can call it whatever the hell we want, clearly (from the brochure) "progressive" was churning as a term in the UK whilst it wasn't even mentioned for decades Stateside!

For you Brits, please see out the Yes tribute band "Fragile," who are presently on their "Lost in the City" tour.....I know these chaps, they are amazing!   Look up their versions of "Tales" on YouTube for example.  


It's only rock & roll, and we like it!  
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2010 at 13:24
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

We fans can call it whatever the hell we want, clearly (from the brochure) "progressive" was churning as a term in the UK whilst it wasn't even mentioned for decades Stateside!
In 1976 Punk rallied against the dinosaurs of Prog Rock - they were very clear that it was Prog they were against - not Symphonic Rock, Art Rock, Heavy Rock, Southern Rock or Classic Rock - but Prog Rock. They called those bands "dinosaurs" implying they were old. If Prog Rock was old by 1976 it must have been in use long before then, even amongst the non-fans.
What?
Back to Top
Epignosis View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32482 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2010 at 14:03
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

We fans can call it whatever the hell we want, clearly (from the brochure) "progressive" was churning as a term in the UK whilst it wasn't even mentioned for decades Stateside!
In 1976 Punk rallied against the dinosaurs of Prog Rock - they were very clear that it was Prog they were against - not Symphonic Rock, Art Rock, Heavy Rock, Southern Rock or Classic Rock - but Prog Rock. They called those bands "dinosaurs" implying they were old. If Prog Rock was old by 1976 it must have been in use long before then, even amongst the non-fans.


That, or punk rockers were morons.  Big smile
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
Back to Top
Bonnek View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 01 2009
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 4515 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2010 at 14:08
Are we discussing again what Prog is?

This is getting confusing guys, when I joined PA I had a pretty clear idea what it was but now I kind of don't know any more. Thumbs Down

I always thought it was the kind of stuff played by unwashed hippies with long hairs, capes and woolly trousers. Is it something else now?


Edited by Bonnek - June 05 2010 at 14:10
Back to Top
A Person View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 10 2008
Location: __
Status: Offline
Points: 65760 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2010 at 14:13
Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:

Are we discussing again what Prog is?

This is getting confusing guys, when I joined PA I had a pretty clear idea what it was but now I kind of don't know any more. Thumbs Down

I always thought it was the kind of stuff played by unwashed hippies with long hairs, capes and woolly trousers. Is it something else now?

Some of us cut our hair now. Smile
Back to Top
Bonnek View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 01 2009
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 4515 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2010 at 14:18
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:

Are we discussing again what Prog is?

This is getting confusing guys, when I joined PA I had a pretty clear idea what it was but now I kind of don't know any more. Thumbs Down

I always thought it was the kind of stuff played by unwashed hippies with long hairs, capes and woolly trousers. Is it something else now?

Some of us cut our hair now. Smile


That's devious! You've gone punk on us!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.250 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.