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omri 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Israel
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Points: 1250
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 Topic: "5 star" albums and masterpiece.
Posted: September 21 2010 at 11:59 |
 O666 wrote:
Thank you for your honest. Yes as you said "TIME" is important parameter and measure to recognize "Masterpiece". I agree with you about judgement based on feelings. You know, When I was 11 I couldn't judge about objective side of music and I follow my feelings. Music and other Arts have 2 sides : objective and subjective and we cant discuss about subjective side any more. Many times one album or song has perfect compose,orchestrationand... but it cant impress to feelings. I meet this situation in many of jazz rock/fusion bands(please dont attack to me. I love and respect to this style). Powerful music playing with great technique but without feelings! and in other hand there are many bands without that techniqe and .... but they impress to feelings and thoughts. Thanks again. |
I definitely agree that some JR/F tracks or album are perfect technicaly but leaves me apathic and uninterested.
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omri
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O666
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2009
Location: TEHRAN-IRAN
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Points: 2618
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Posted: September 19 2010 at 12:56 |
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Thank you for your honest. Yes as you said "TIME" is important parameter and measure to recognize "Masterpiece". I agree with you about judgement based on feelings. You know, When I was 11 I couldn't judge about objective side of music and I follow my feelings. Music and other Arts have 2 sides : objective and subjective and we cant discuss about subjective side any more. Many times one album or song has perfect compose,orchestrationand... but it cant impress to feelings. I meet this situation in many of jazz rock/fusion bands(please dont attack to me. I love and respect to this style). Powerful music playing with great technique but without feelings! and in other hand there are many bands without that techniqe and .... but they impress to feelings and thoughts. Thanks again.
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omri
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Israel
Status: Offline
Points: 1250
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Posted: September 19 2010 at 11:24 |
O666 wrote:
omri wrote:
Silly me. I checked your profile. You are Omid . I remembered the Kafka connection. |
Hi omri. I am Omid and you right about Kafka connection!! Oh no. You are not silly bro. I like this discussion. You talked reasonable and gentle and I like to answer you. Can I ?
First about "Love". I undrestand what you say and I agree with you 80%. You talked about Love kinds and situations that we call "Love". I think musical Love is very different. You dont need it (like child) and you dont need it (like beautiful girl) and its far from responsible ( or these kinds). You "choose" music you like for any purposes. One like music for dance and any other like music for cry or ... Let me talk about myself. I "Love" Progressive music just for "music". I believe to "Art just for Art". I never forced myself to listen music. I never like music to show myself "Intelectual". I dont know why I "LOVE" this kind of music and I never have a reason for this. I trapped when I was 11 (30 years later from now). Nobudy said to me "This style is good" and I didnt had any information about Progressive music in IRAN. Believe me any music I listened and I like it before be in Progressive category!!! I start with "The Wall" and after it "ELP". When I liked Tangerine Dream, I didn't know TD is progressive. I never known Jethro Tull is Progressive too and ....
I had several POP music albums too but one thing forced me to this kind and I call that "LOVE"
Now I like to talk about Masterpiece. Logan and you said its subjective but I dont agree that. Many musical parameters is "Objective" like Technique, Arrangment,compose,... and we have reasonable criteria for these kind of parameters. Many musical specifications are have definition. Music have specialists and schools. Music have course in universities and teachers. You can recognize good music and bad music. You cant say " This is my taste and opinion" only about music. We can analys music. Taste and opinion is subjective and is one part of several objective parts of our criteria not all of this.For example "Genesis" and "Yes". You cant ignore objective values of these 2 bands. You cant ignore technique,composing,orchestration and .... of them. Can you?
I think we CAN recognize "masterpiece" and we done this before (for example J.S Bach). Thanks |
Hi Omid,
Of corse you can answer me. This is what wer'e here for in the forum.
About Love of music I agree it is something we choose and therefore is not a need of any kind. The question is how do we choose or according to what ?
I am not a musician so I can not measure the value of orchestration, technique, composing etc. I doubt it that there's a fully objective criteria to all of these terms.
However, as you said we hear something and we like it. That's 100% subjective. And nothing's wrong with that. In the end it is what we feel while hearing the music.
I think what makes a prog listener different is the fact he is willing to put more listens and effort before he makes a final judgement so that's maybe why some of us (me included) claim that prog fans are more intelectual listeners. But again, in the end we make our judgement according to our feelings. John S. Bach which I also consider as one of the great composers ever, made many pieces which are now called masterpieces but 100 years ago he was almost forgotten. So I stick to my idea that we can't realy know if something is masterpiece or not (but for me this is not very important).
I do agree that with the example of love to music you proven the existence of pure love.
keep on the interesting threads 
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omri
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O666
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2009
Location: TEHRAN-IRAN
Status: Offline
Points: 2618
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Posted: September 16 2010 at 14:17 |
omri wrote:
Silly me. I checked your profile. You are Omid . I remembered the Kafka connection. |
Hi omri. I am Omid and you right about Kafka connection!! Oh no. You are not silly bro. I like this discussion. You talked reasonable and gentle and I like to answer you. Can I ?
First about "Love". I undrestand what you say and I agree with you 80%. You talked about Love kinds and situations that we call "Love". I think musical Love is very different. You dont need it (like child) and you dont need it (like beautiful girl) and its far from responsible ( or these kinds). You "choose" music you like for any purposes. One like music for dance and any other like music for cry or ... Let me talk about myself. I "Love" Progressive music just for "music". I believe to "Art just for Art". I never forced myself to listen music. I never like music to show myself "Intelectual". I dont know why I "LOVE" this kind of music and I never have a reason for this. I trapped when I was 11 (30 years later from now). Nobudy said to me "This style is good" and I didnt had any information about Progressive music in IRAN. Believe me any music I listened and I like it before be in Progressive category!!! I start with "The Wall" and after it "ELP". When I liked Tangerine Dream, I didn't know TD is progressive. I never known Jethro Tull is Progressive too and ....
I had several POP music albums too but one thing forced me to this kind and I call that "LOVE"
Now I like to talk about Masterpiece. Logan and you said its subjective but I dont agree that. Many musical parameters is "Objective" like Technique, Arrangment,compose,... and we have reasonable criteria for these kind of parameters. Many musical specifications are have definition. Music have specialists and schools. Music have course in universities and teachers. You can recognize good music and bad music. You cant say " This is my taste and opinion" only about music. We can analys music. Taste and opinion is subjective and is one part of several objective parts of our criteria not all of this.For example "Genesis" and "Yes". You cant ignore objective values of these 2 bands. You cant ignore technique,composing,orchestration and .... of them. Can you?
I think we CAN recognize "masterpiece" and we done this before (for example J.S Bach). Thanks
Edited by O666 - September 18 2010 at 06:24
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omri
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Israel
Status: Offline
Points: 1250
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Posted: September 15 2010 at 12:53 |
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Silly me. I checked your profile. You are Omid . I remembered the Kafka connection.
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omri
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omri
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Israel
Status: Offline
Points: 1250
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Posted: September 12 2010 at 12:28 |
O666 wrote:
Logan wrote:
Sorry for snipping: "...Love is big word but exist. Maybe I dont ENJOY love and maybe love hurt me but Love is one part of my soul like any others..." (O666).
You mention love, but I think a "masterpiece", though in the ear, and even the loins, of the behearer, for me can be one of those albums I don't just love, but there's an almost erotic quality/ tingly sensation when listening to the music. One doesn't just love it, one makes love with it. Not literally, of course. It has eargasmic qualities.
Herbie Hancock's Crossings is one such album for me, but it leaves some others limp.
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Sorry Logan. Internet speed in Iran is very very low! and I answer to Omri not you. My write posted before you but your post recieve before my!!!!! I dont want to talk about Love !! Omri talked about love and I answer to him!!!!!!! |
Oh, you were answering me. I haven't been around for few days so I appologise for the late react.
Well, let's talk about LOVE : When you are a child and you are hurt, you go to your mother to get comfort. You realy trust your mother to be on your side. Now, you are 18 years old and there's a beautiful girl you realy want just to hugg forever (maybe deep inside you let yourself fantasy of even more than hugging). Or, you are 30 years old looking at your baby sleeping in his little bed and you think you would do anything needed to keep him safe.
All 3 examples are called love but those are 3 different feelings. The first is a need, so is the second (but a quite different need) and the third is something that comes from responsibility and realising this baby is part of you (you don't feel the same for other's people baby right ?).
If we go back to music, some songs make me wanna cry, others make me wanna get out and take care of what's wrong. Both cases make me feel. You can say I love both (and that will be true in a way) but I still feel different feelings.
So I feel love is a term used to describe a situation when we feel strong emotions and not the emotion itself. Therefore it explains nothing.
This is why I do not like the term.
Back to the term - Masterpiece, As Logan said it is subjective and therefore you and I may not feel the same of an album like SEBTP for example (personally I don't find it Genesis' best output BTW). But the term Masterpiece means we all should appreciate it as top art. The fact is we may not agree (and if we do, we can always find a third guy that will not agree with us) so there isn't any real masterpiece according to it's deffinition.
Now, you can choose to say love and masterpiece and other big words but be aware that it's your subjective thoughts and feelings that do not describe any infinite truth. I choose to avoid these words and try to describe precisely my thoghts and feelings.
Well, I do appreciate Kafka.
BTW, are you Omid ?
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omri
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O666
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2009
Location: TEHRAN-IRAN
Status: Offline
Points: 2618
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Posted: September 09 2010 at 13:58 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
[
What are you saying? Any album with a 4.25 average and a sufficient number of ratings gets the masterpiece tag, and the rankings are determined by the votes, Close to the Edge used to be number one, I think WYWH might have even sneaked up to number one at one point. And it would take a lot more than 50 people writing bad reviews to knock it under 4.25. For one thing, none of those people are likely to be collaborators, and the collabs ratings are significantly weighted. |
How many ordinary listener equal to one "Collaborator"? Dont mistake. I agree with "collabs significant weight " and I try to say same thing. As I said before with 50 or 100 "ordinary" rates, PA doesnt change the list. You said " Any albums with a 4.25 average and SUFFICIENT(?) number of rating gets the masterpiece tag". What is the mean of "Sufficient"? Are you talk about "Ordinary" members or "collabs"? I think this is a paradox! You talk about "sufficient number" and after that you said about "significant weight". Maybe your mean is " Sufficient number of significant weight". Quantity and Quality together. Hmm. Interesting idea and reasonable definition of masterpiece.
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Pekka
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 03 2006
Location: Espoo, Finland
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Points: 6435
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Posted: September 09 2010 at 13:34 |
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^Yes, that's how it works. There's no big conspiracy behind its number one spot.
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O666
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2009
Location: TEHRAN-IRAN
Status: Offline
Points: 2618
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Posted: September 09 2010 at 12:47 |
Gerinski wrote:
O666 wrote:
Now note to this: If 50 fans rate under 3 star to this album, Album's rate drop to 4.2 or 4.3. Does PA change "Selling England..." position in this list? I dont think so. I think "Masterpiece" word never change with rates. PA call "Selling England..." a masterpiece of progressive rock music and PA cant change this. Can you accuse PA for this "Absolute" opinion? Can you say "No this is not a masterpiece" without any reason? |
I think you are wrong. PA did not put SEBTP in its No.1 position. SEBTP is No.1 because this is the result of the voter's rating. If enough people rate it low, it will fall down from No.1 position. |
Are you sure? 
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debrewguy
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Joined: April 30 2007
Location: Canada
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Points: 3596
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Posted: September 09 2010 at 10:55 |
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been away for a few months. I come back, check the recent forums, and I see the same issues popping up ...
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"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice, Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Finnforest
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Joined: February 03 2007
Location: .
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Posted: September 08 2010 at 21:42 |
Alfonsomdt wrote:
i havenīt read all the post, but itīs a pretty interesting thing
i been thinking for a while, what if we put a 6 star rating, but, that a user can use only 5 times?
that īll be something haha
greetings from Argentina
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That would be great!  I've suggested similar, that the site only allows 5% of a users reviews to be 5-star. They could change them, move one out if they wanted to move a new one in, but the system would cap at 5% of a users total overall reviews. That would be awesome, forced compliance Before someone freaks out, don't. I'm just kidding around, It would NEVER happen here. Still, it would be awesome. 
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Alfonsomdt
Forum Newbie
Joined: October 22 2006
Location: Argentina
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Posted: September 08 2010 at 19:33 |
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i havenīt read all the post, but itīs a pretty interesting thing
i been thinking for a while, what if we put a 6 star rating, but, that a user can use only 5 times?
that īll be something haha
greetings from Argentina
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: September 08 2010 at 16:07 |
O666 wrote:
What is PA's top 10? What is Genesis's "Selling England ...." ? Why any sites (like PA) or any reviewers have Top 10 lists? What is their mean? Is "Selling England..." just 5 star album ? Who said "selling England....." is No1 and why? How many people vote to this album? What mean of No1? I think there are albums with higher rate in PA but "Selling England...." is No1. Why PA didn't make Top 10 lists for all genres and they put "Selling England..." on top of the list of Prog Rock's all genres? Maybe some of Prog fans didn't like Symphonic Prog and they like other genre. Note to "Selling England..." rate: 4.64 star-981 rating-75% 5 star AND (Essential : a masterpiece of Progressive Rock music)
Now note to this: If 50 fans rate under 3 star to this album, Album's rate drop to 4.2 or 4.3. Does PA change "Selling England..." position in this list? I dont think so. I think "Masterpiece" word never change with rates. PA call "Selling England..." a masterpiece of progressive rock music and PA cant change this. Can you accuse PA for this "Absolute" opinion? Can you say "No this is not a masterpiece" without any reason? |
What are you saying? Any album with a 4.25 average and a sufficient number of ratings gets the masterpiece tag, and the rankings are determined by the votes, Close to the Edge used to be number one, I think WYWH might have even sneaked up to number one at one point. And it would take a lot more than 50 people writing bad reviews to knock it under 4.25. For one thing, none of those people are likely to be collaborators, and the collabs ratings are significantly weighted.
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16191
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Posted: September 08 2010 at 14:21 |
Gerinski wrote:
I think you are wrong. PA did not put SEBTP in its No.1 position. SEBTP is No.1 because this is the result of the voter's rating. If enough people rate it low, it will fall down from No.1 position. |
Hmmm ... I have never seen the vote you are describing ... well, I have had a few eye surgeries and am partially blind ... but ...
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010
Location: Barcelona Spain
Status: Offline
Points: 5093
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Posted: September 06 2010 at 15:44 |
O666 wrote:
Now note to this: If 50 fans rate under 3 star to this album, Album's rate drop to 4.2 or 4.3. Does PA change "Selling England..." position in this list? I dont think so. I think "Masterpiece" word never change with rates. PA call "Selling England..." a masterpiece of progressive rock music and PA cant change this. Can you accuse PA for this "Absolute" opinion? Can you say "No this is not a masterpiece" without any reason? |
I think you are wrong. PA did not put SEBTP in its No.1 position. SEBTP is No.1 because this is the result of the voter's rating. If enough people rate it low, it will fall down from No.1 position.
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O666
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2009
Location: TEHRAN-IRAN
Status: Offline
Points: 2618
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Posted: September 06 2010 at 10:21 |
What is PA's top 10? What is Genesis's "Selling England ...." ? Why any sites (like PA) or any reviewers have Top 10 lists? What is their mean? Is "Selling England..." just 5 star album ? Who said "selling England....." is No1 and why? How many people vote to this album? What mean of No1? I think there are albums with higher rate in PA but "Selling England...." is No1. Why PA didn't make Top 10 lists for all genres and they put "Selling England..." on top of the list of Prog Rock's all genres? Maybe some of Prog fans didn't like Symphonic Prog and they like other genre. Note to "Selling England..." rate: 4.64 star-981 rating- 75% 5 star AND ( Essential : a masterpiece of Progressive Rock music)
Now note to this: If 50 fans rate under 3 star to this album, Album's rate drop to 4.2 or 4.3. Does PA change "Selling England..." position in this list? I dont think so. I think "Masterpiece" word never change with rates. PA call "Selling England..." a masterpiece of progressive rock music and PA cant change this. Can you accuse PA for this "Absolute" opinion? Can you say "No this is not a masterpiece" without any reason?
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ergaster
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 30 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 294
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Posted: September 04 2010 at 11:55 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
Just like in the UK now, you cannot find for love or money anyone who would admit to voting for Margaret Thatcher. Similarly, for 5 star masterpiece albums is anyone game enough to admit that they have handed these out to records where they consider some of the tracks are erm...boring, lightweight. filler etc ?
We rate waaay too high on this site - 5 star garlands are for freakishly/perversely brilliant music alone (rare)
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I think the problem is that 5 stars equals both "essential to a collection" AND "masterpiece", which is probably an unwarranted conflation. I have lots of albums that I think are essential to my collection but I wouldn't rate as masterpieces. Halliwell's Film Guide rates from 0 stars to five, and his system I think works very well. There are very very few five-star films, and a *lot* of one and two-star films, and a one-star film is not necessarily a bad film (you have to read the review to find out, go figure...  ). If we can't give half-stars, then it should be possible to give no stars. The four stars can be "essential", and five stars might have some meaning.
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We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.
Captain Malcolm Reynolds
Reality rules, Honor the truth
Chemist99a R.I.P.
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ergaster
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Posted: September 04 2010 at 11:42 |
Manuel wrote:
Sorry, but as I mentioned, this is just my humble opinion, and the way I rate music in my own private collection. Maybe in P.A. 5 stars is a masterpiece, and for some other individuals too, and that's perfectly fine. I just spoke from a very personal perspective.
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Ah, okay, that makes sense.
Edited by ergaster - September 04 2010 at 11:43
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We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.
Captain Malcolm Reynolds
Reality rules, Honor the truth
Chemist99a R.I.P.
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ergaster
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 30 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 294
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Posted: September 04 2010 at 11:42 |
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nvmd double post
Edited by ergaster - September 04 2010 at 11:43
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We have done the impossible, and that makes us mighty.
Captain Malcolm Reynolds
Reality rules, Honor the truth
Chemist99a R.I.P.
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Finnforest
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Posted: September 04 2010 at 09:15 |
Yeah, Pekka, I think most people would love to have the 1/2 star thing here. I personally don't need it, but I'd support it now, just because most users seem to want it and I see very little downside to it. Other than the workload involved for those who would have to do it. So that's one of those decisions best left to Max and his techie collabs. I'm sure he knows there's lots of people here who want the 1/2 stars. The best thing about it would be that it would decrease 5 star over-use, as well as bridging the difficult gap many people have from 3 to 4 stars. Less handwringing over rounding decisions
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
"5 star" albums and masterpiece.
