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Topic: Country Joe & The Fish on PA? Posted: October 25 2015 at 08:05
I didn't know much of Country Joe and the Fish before reading this thread, apart of the Woodstock session, but regardless their classification inside or outside PA, I think I'll grab an album.
Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half. My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com
Joined: April 11 2014
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Posted: October 14 2015 at 10:00
Once again, we go through the same old song and dance about why an artist that's ProtoProg cannot be included in PA because contributors, admins and numerous ex admins, that haunt this site, feel that the music of said artists has no known influence on prog artists, while expounding on artists that they perceive to have been influential without offering a single shred of collaborating evidence, such as artist testimonials, in order to back up such claims. I wouldn't mind if these PA members just stated that the site no longer wants to include new ProtoProg artists and it's contrary to the sites owners to remove artists once they are listed in any genre. But that's too easy and decent.The above noted video from CountryJoe & TheFish is an actual Progressive Rock song. It's not a prog song. It doesn't fall into the category of being a watered down version of previously established groups. It's not 'Neo' to any other group or genre. Theyaretheoriginals. This song lacks any semblance of a conventional rock song of it's time (47yearsago) in that it lacks a verse, chorus, verse, chorus vocal structure and goes off on unexpected, albeit brief, instrumental sections before unfolding in a heavily distorted guitar jam.Do I expect the above mentioned to recognize the song as nascent ProgressiveRock? Hell no. These are someof the same people that think that a folk rock song must always contain elements of actual folk music.
I can't blame them for listening to CaliforniaDreaming by the MamasAndPoppas or Do You Believe In Magic? by the LovingSpoonful and mistakingly think they're hearing elements of WoodyGuthrie, Leadbelly or the CarterFamily inthesesongs. But I don't have to pretend that I respect their judgment on matters of artist's genre classifications
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Posted: October 13 2015 at 18:14
kenethlevine wrote:
Speaking only from personal experience, I can say that Country Joe and the Fish were not nearly as well known as the Doors or Jefferson Airplane, and that their influence on prog was not as significant. Jefferson definitely had influence on bands like Curved Air and, as much as I hate to admit it, some influence on Renaissance, though not as much as Rolling Stone might have you believe. Re the Doors, others can probably give more evidence and examples, but the vocal passages in Camel's Mirage remind me strongly of the Doors (both in vocal styles and in organ accompaniment)
The problem with all of this Ken, is that it's speculation without a testimonial from an artist that's said to have been influenced such and such band. I don't doubt that JA and the Doors influenced numerous rock bands, but without an artist (or artists) saying so in print, it's all speculation and wishful thinking.
Edited by SteveG - October 13 2015 at 18:14
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Posted: October 13 2015 at 15:54
Smurph wrote:
Yea. Those lessfamousweirdpsychebands (?) running all through California from 66-68 most likely didn't have much influence on prog. Certainly the 13th Floor Elevators would deserve to be here even more than Country Joe but they don't deserve to be here due to their obscurity. There's a HUGE slew of those kinds of bands.
Most people know CountryJoe from his solo Woodstock rant TheFishCheer. (Give me a F, etc.) The material Joe did as CountryJoe & Fish is electric psych rock, like this stoner gem from their first album tilted Section43:
Most of the problem with CJ & Fish is that many people misidentify their music and think it's folk. (Which is the reason I have no patience left for this topic and the people who should know about it.) And the last time I checked, people thought this music was weird. If anyone was obscure in the late 60s it was the 13thFloorElevators who only had regional fame. They obtained retro fame from 70s punk bands that claimed them as inspiration.
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Posted: October 13 2015 at 15:48
Yea. Those less famous weird psyche bands running all through California from 66-68 most likely didn't have much influence on prog. Certainly the 13th Floor Elevators would deserve to be here even more than Country Joe but they don't deserve to be here due to their obscurity. There's a HUGE slew of those kinds of bands.
Joined: August 17 2005
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Posted: October 13 2015 at 13:39
I feel like if we include Country Joe then we'll have to have a conversation about Wavy Gravy and the like. Seems like another one of those slippery slopes.
Then again, we already have Sweetwater and United States of America here so maybe we've already gone into the breach...
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Posted: October 13 2015 at 12:11
Speaking only from personal experience, I can say that Country Joe and the Fish were not nearly as well known as the Doors or Jefferson Airplane, and that their influence on prog was not as significant. Jefferson definitely had influence on bands like Curved Air and, as much as I hate to admit it, some influence on Renaissance, though not as much as Rolling Stone might have you believe. Re the Doors, others can probably give more evidence and examples, but the vocal passages in Camel's Mirage remind me strongly of the Doors (both in vocal styles and in organ accompaniment)
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Posted: October 11 2015 at 16:54
No, both Jefferson Airplane and The Doors were added when the genre teams were already operative. If I remember correctly, bands such as Triumph or Super Furry Animals were added to Prog Related in the early days of the site, but most of those "controversial" additions already existed when I joined the site in the summer of 2005.
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Posted: October 11 2015 at 16:43
SteveG wrote:
Dean wrote:
Sorry, but they were never Proto Prog simply because they played no part in the evolution of Progressive Rock and their contribution to the genre was zero.
And what, exactly, were JeffersonAirplane's* and the Doors'* contributions to Prog?
You'll have to ask whoever added them into the archive, I suspect that at least Airplane has been here since before the genre teams were established so their addition probably wasn't governed by the current criteria.
SteveG wrote:
It's a old defense, blinded by tunnel vision, and it's quite ridiculous at this point.
Just once, just for f**king once I'd like to be involved in an exchange of posts from you that doesn't turn into this cheap denigrating form of personal attack. This conversation is over.
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Posted: October 11 2015 at 14:17
Dean wrote:
Sorry, but they were never Proto Prog simply because they played no part in the evolution of Progressive Rock and their contribution to the genre was zero.
And what, exactly, were JeffersonAirplane's* and the Doors'* contributions to Prog?
Yours is an old defense, blinded by tunnel vision, and is quite ridiculous at this point. If this view wasn't detrimental to placing an avant-garde artist in a position to be viewed and possibly appreciated by prog fans, it would actually be amusing.
* Both the Jefferson Airplane and the Doors are classified as Proto Prog in PA, along with other west coast psychedelic/experimental artists.
Edited by SteveG - October 11 2015 at 14:36
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Posted: October 11 2015 at 04:28
Sorry, but they were never Proto Prog simply because they played no part in the evolution of Progressive Rock and their contribution to the genre was zero.
Most America and English Psychedelic Rock was practically by definition unconventional and experimental but not all of it was influential on the development of Progressive Rock.
I don't think this is going to happen any time soon - mostly because half of PA wants to get rid of proto prog and prog related, and they far outweigh the folks who want to open up to Cream, Country Joe, Grateful Dead and so forth. But yeah if you can find anyone to sponsor Country Joe's Pesche for proto then by all means go for it.
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
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Posted: October 11 2015 at 01:27
Elliot Miller wrote:
Thank you for pointing that out! My case is now made. I have recently researched proto-prog as thoroughly as I could and in the process listened to the first three Jefferson Airplane albums and the first two Country Joe and the Fish LPs. In my humble opinion there is no question that CJATF were more progressive and experimental than JA. It seems arbitrary at best to include the latter but not the former. The Doors and Spirit are included, and they should be, but that also makes it harder to justify not including CJATF. <span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 1.4;">I also think Love (Arthur Lee's band) should have a page on PA, but I will make that case another time.</span><p ="Msonormal"><o:p></o:p>
The trouble is, you're not on the site's team of specialists that go through the fine nitty-gritty of deciding what we have here (and really, they do this amazing job out of love, not duty). If I had my way, based on the track 'Introduction', I'd have included Kajagoogoo ( ) but Country Joe would be included 10,000 times earlier before these guys that everyone hates.......(except me) sooooooo..............
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Posted: October 11 2015 at 01:11
Elliot Miller wrote:
Thank you for pointing that out! My case is now made. I have recently researched proto-prog as thoroughly as I could and in the process listened to the first three Jefferson Airplane albums and the first two Country Joe and the Fish LPs. In my humble opinion there is no question that CJATF were more progressive and experimental than JA. It seems arbitrary at best to include the latter but not the former. The Doors and Spirit are included, and they should be, but that also makes it harder to justify not including CJATF. <span style="font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 1.4;">I also think Love (Arthur Lee's band) should have a page on PA, but I will make that case another time.</span><p ="Msonormal"><o:p></o:p>
Once more I totally agree.
I have tried to add some psychedelic rockbands (CJ Fish, West Coast Pop Art Experimental Band, etc) a couple of years ago but since then I have given up completely on it because the activity just didn't seem to add to my happiness. I would still love to see progarchives opening up to what allround vinyl record collectors call 'progressive' in the '67 - '76 period. It includes psychedelic, heavy psych and records with an overall obscure atmosphere.
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Posted: October 11 2015 at 00:09
Thank you for pointing that out! My case is now made. I have recently researched proto-prog as thoroughly as I could and in the process listened to the first three Jefferson Airplane albums and the first two Country Joe and the Fish LPs. In my humble opinion there is no question that CJATF were more progressive and experimental than JA. It seems arbitrary at best to include the latter but not the former. The Doors and Spirit are included, and they should be, but that also makes it harder to justify not including CJATF. I also think Love (Arthur Lee's band) should have a page on PA, but I
will make that case another time.
Joined: September 03 2005
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Posted: October 10 2015 at 23:46
I guess it could be argued that if Jefferson Airplane have a page here, then why not CJ&TF ?? There's a fine line between certain Psych acts and Proto-Progressive music. Country Joe is in that grey area between the two.
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Country Joe & The Fish on PA?
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kenethlevine wrote:
) but Country Joe would be included 10,000 times earlier before these guys that everyone hates.......(except me) sooooooo..............
