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The Dark Elf View Drop Down
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Points: 12738 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Thank god for the former eastern goverments!
    Posted: March 13 2011 at 18:13
Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Thank god for the Crusades! Without the genocide in Moorish Spain and the massacres in Acre and Jerusalem, I wouldn't be drinking this great cup of coffee now!


If I recall my history lessons, coffee was introduced into Europe many centuries AFTER the Crusades and the Fall of Grenade (1492), around 1600...
Moreover, it came from the Arabic Peninsula through Venitian merchants.

But I can see what you mean: THANKS GOD FOR THE CRUSADES, IT GAVE US TOMATOES!
 
Thank you for catching the irony. Wink
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Points: 10837 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 17:59
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Thank god for the Crusades! Without the genocide in Moorish Spain and the massacres in Acre and Jerusalem, I wouldn't be drinking this great cup of coffee now!


If I recall my history lessons, coffee was introduced into Europe many centuries AFTER the Crusades and the Fall of Grenade (1492), around 1600...
Moreover, it came from the Arabic Peninsula through Venitian merchants.

But I can see what you mean: THANKS GOD FOR THE CRUSADES, IT GAVE US TOMATOES!
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Points: 12738 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 12:12
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

Fans of real coffee will probably tell you that what you have in Starbucks is not a coffee at all, just some liquid. Smile
 
Actually, I am not a coffee snob. I like Starbucks' coffee, because it is chockful of caffeine, that most wondrous of elements. That, and there is a ubiquitous franchise store a couple blocks from my house. It's as if they put it there just for me!
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Points: 7698 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 11:04
Fans of real coffee will probably tell you that what you have in Starbucks is not a coffee at all, just some liquid. Smile
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Points: 12738 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 11:00
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Thank god for the Crusades! Without the genocide in Moorish Spain and the massacres in Acre and Jerusalem, I wouldn't be drinking this great cup of coffee now!
Without a God we wouldn't have had crusades
At this point in the morning I am more thankful for coffee than god. Besides, the Crusades did nothing for god, really, but did introduce coffee to Europe. And for that I am thankful for the thousands that were slaughtered just so I could enjoy my Starbucks. Who says religion isn't useful?
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Points: 7698 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 10:54
Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:

I have interviewed many artists who operated behind the iron curtain and not a single one of them has claimed communism, the iron curtain and the censorship was a blessing for them.     

I hope you will interview many more. Ask them how did they fell themselves in the end of the 80's - beginning of the 90's. I guess they tell you it was a hard time for them.
 

Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:

On the contrary, many of them are rightfully angry and bitter about the many lost years of their careers. Being imprisoned and censored is a waste of time and life.      
I think in most cases it's just an illusion: if we were free, we could gain international success. Now they are free, but success is more than moderate. There are exceptions like Rammstein, but in general this is an English-singing world.
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Points: 13414 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 10:53
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Thank god for the Crusades! Without the genocide in Moorish Spain and the massacres in Acre and Jerusalem, I wouldn't be drinking this great cup of coffee now!
Without a God we wouldn't have had crusades
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Points: 3658 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 08:34

I have interviewed many artists who operated behind the iron curtain and not a single one of them has claimed communism, the iron curtain and the censorship was a blessing for them. On the contrary, many of them are rightfully angry and bitter about the many lost years of their careers. Being imprisoned and censored is a waste of time and life.  

Communism, the iron curtain and censorship was maybe a blessing for the western bands due to the lack of competition from the bands imprisoned on the other side of the iron curtain.    

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Points: 12738 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 08:30
Thank god for the Crusades! Without the genocide in Moorish Spain and the massacres in Acre and Jerusalem, I wouldn't be drinking this great cup of coffee now!
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Points: 13414 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 08:20
Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:

Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

I'm not justifying communism and censorship (by the way, its pressure on musicians in countries like Hungary or Poland was not so strong as it was in Soviet Union or Romania), but there were positive moments. Let's face it, after the crash of communism many serious artists found themselves in hard position without state-sponsoring, they simply could not pay for rehearsal rooms, storing equipment, transporting gear etc. Paradox: they were fighting against the system, but many of them could not survive without it.

And another example. Do you know many rock bands from West Germany singing in German? Only Novalis and maybe a couple of other names come to my mind. While in GDR, where artists were obliged to sing in native language, we have many German-singing bands. This kind of movement called Ost Rock is pretty unique. Just look at http://www.ostmusik.de and click DEUTCHLAND, lots of names to discover.   


I'm not sure it was the sole fall of the communist states which led the musicians to such problems. In fact, I wonder if their problems are not due to the fact to the opening of the musical market to the foreign concurrence.
Example: if I'm not wrong, hard-rock records were forbidden until 1985 in USSR. Once the Russian state turned from a "communist" economy to a capitalist economy, hard-rock records could be imported in Russia, which may have led to the fall of the inner musical hard-rock/heavy-metal scene (if anyone can give me informations, I really don't know, it's just hypothesis)?

About German bands singing in German... Let's say that the West German could aim an international success (the presence of American military bases could help them) - and there were West German bands singing in German: Floh de Cologne, Amon Düül II, Ton Steine Scherben...
And don't forget the Kraut-Rock bands were rather fond of INSTRUMENTAL music (by the way, Kraftwerk have recorded its albums or many songs in several linguages, from German to English to Spanish or French!)

One last thing about this linguage thing: in France or Italy (maybe Spain and Portugal, too), there were A LOT of rock bands or musicians who sung rock music in their national linguages. And Spain and Portugal could hardly be described as "communist states"...


Spain and Portugal had Franco and Soares. The colour of your dictator doesn't matter. Every dictator tries to gain consensus through nationalism, specially when their consensus is very low.
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Points: 10837 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2011 at 08:03
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

I'm not justifying communism and censorship (by the way, its pressure on musicians in countries like Hungary or Poland was not so strong as it was in Soviet Union or Romania), but there were positive moments. Let's face it, after the crash of communism many serious artists found themselves in hard position without state-sponsoring, they simply could not pay for rehearsal rooms, storing equipment, transporting gear etc. Paradox: they were fighting against the system, but many of them could not survive without it.

And another example. Do you know many rock bands from West Germany singing in German? Only Novalis and maybe a couple of other names come to my mind. While in GDR, where artists were obliged to sing in native language, we have many German-singing bands. This kind of movement called Ost Rock is pretty unique. Just look at http://www.ostmusik.de and click DEUTCHLAND, lots of names to discover.   


I'm not sure it was the sole fall of the communist states which led the musicians to such problems. In fact, I wonder if their problems are not due to the fact to the opening of the musical market to the foreign concurrence.
Example: if I'm not wrong, hard-rock records were forbidden until 1985 in USSR. Once the Russian state turned from a "communist" economy to a capitalist economy, hard-rock records could be imported in Russia, which may have led to the fall of the inner musical hard-rock/heavy-metal scene (if anyone can give me informations, I really don't know, it's just hypothesis)?

About German bands singing in German... Let's say that the West German could aim an international success (the presence of American military bases could help them) - and there were West German bands singing in German: Floh de Cologne, Amon Düül II, Ton Steine Scherben...
And don't forget the Kraut-Rock bands were rather fond of INSTRUMENTAL music (by the way, Kraftwerk have recorded its albums or many songs in several linguages, from German to English to Spanish or French!)

One last thing about this linguage thing: in France or Italy (maybe Spain and Portugal, too), there were A LOT of rock bands or musicians who sung rock music in their national linguages. And Spain and Portugal could hardly be described as "communist states"...

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Points: 7698 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 20:22
I'm not justifying communism and censorship (by the way, its pressure on musicians in countries like Hungary or Poland was not so strong as it was in Soviet Union or Romania), but there were positive moments. Let's face it, after the crash of communism many serious artists found themselves in hard position without state-sponsoring, they simply could not pay for rehearsal rooms, storing equipment, transporting gear etc. Paradox: they were fighting against the system, but many of them could not survive without it.

And another example. Do you know many rock bands from West Germany singing in German? Only Novalis and maybe a couple of other names come to my mind. While in GDR, where artists were obliged to sing in native language, we have many German-singing bands. This kind of movement called Ost Rock is pretty unique. Just look at http://www.ostmusik.de and click DEUTCHLAND, lots of names to discover.   
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Points: 22989 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 19:09
Originally posted by WalterDigsTunes WalterDigsTunes wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by WalterDigsTunes WalterDigsTunes wrote:

The collapse of the Eastern Bloc in 1989 signaled a shift away from state-sponsored music in favour of market oriented approaches.


You don't seem to make much sense.


State-owned record labels were the norm in Eastern Europe during the communist era.


They didn't sponsor anything, though. Actually, they took from the artist.
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Points: 4373 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 19:00
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by WalterDigsTunes WalterDigsTunes wrote:

The collapse of the Eastern Bloc in 1989 signaled a shift away from state-sponsored music in favour of market oriented approaches.


You don't seem to make much sense.


State-owned record labels were the norm in Eastern Europe during the communist era.
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Points: 22989 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 18:45
Originally posted by WalterDigsTunes WalterDigsTunes wrote:

The collapse of the Eastern Bloc in 1989 signaled a shift away from state-sponsored music in favour of market oriented approaches.


You don't seem to make much sense.

Also, there was no musical education in Romania. Instead, regardless what you wanted to become (a doctor, an engineer), there were plenty of mandatory "classes" in school meant to teach you how to do carpentry, how to file metal or how to work on the crops.

There was a certain progressive scene in the late 60s and early 70s, whose traces cannot be found anymore as they were not allowed to record. Prog-folk era Phoenix later came to do a mix of heavy Jethro Tull and folk. They were good musicians, but completely self-taught.
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Points: 8138 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 10:01
^
I don't deny the musicianship of these countries, but the censorship prevented a lot of bands to develop their creativity as they wanted. That's why a lot of these bands were either banned (including Phoenix), or members flew to other countries where they coud be free to do whatever they wanted. That's a fact.
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Points: 13414 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 09:55
I'm not sure that this is an appropriate site for this kind of discussions, but stcking on the musical side, I think Romania has good musicianships, not limited to Phoenix and not limited to prog. The rest of the eastern Europe has Marian Varga and Collegium Musicum, After Crying, Modry Efekt just to mention some. The last of them were playing blues just one year after the Russian invasion of Prague....
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Points: 8138 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 09:23

I know Phoenix but if you can cite at least 10 other prog rock bands from Romania of those times, I will applause. Besides, Phoenix had to play mostly folky music that praised their country folklore, so it is clear they were not free in their creation. cf from wikipedia : "But the Communist officials were not very comfortable with the Western-style music that they were singing, and kept creating them problems. So Phoenix abandoned beat turned to Romanian folklore, pagan rituals, mystic animals and old traditions."

In Poland, there were books that were black-listed in libraries. When the poet Milosz obtained the Nobel prize no one knew him in Poland (he was published in the US where he resided but not in Poland).
 
Have you ever heard of the gulags ? This is where intellectuals were sent to in Russia.
And yes, a parallel can, and must, be drawn between communism and nazism. I am tired of these western people who never lived in a communist country and dare giving a positive opinion of this oppressive, bloody and inhuman regimen.
 
Fortunately, creating a communist party is, similarly to a nazi one, forbidden in Poland now.


Edited by lucas - March 12 2011 at 09:25
"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Points: 13414 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 09:09
From Cuba there is, even if I don't like salsa too much. However what I mean is that the culture precedent to communism has been somewhat preserved from the decadence of the western world. If you read my previous post I'm mentioning 19th century's composers. Lenin may have listened to them but this is not the point.

Nazis had a minister called Goebbels who was used to say "everytime I hear the word 'culture' my hand goes to my gun", I think Nazism can't be compared to anything else. 

Finally, try to listen to Phoenix before calling "empty" the music from Romania. 

http://www.progarchives.com/album.asp?id=7401 
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Points: 8138 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 12 2011 at 08:24

Just like thousands of their compatriots, my parents left Poland during the state of war. Communism is, besides nazism, the most oppressive form of authority, and any form of culture was controlled by the party, so that censorship was strong and one had to be careful and could produce only something in line with the party's will. Romania is a good example of emptiness in terms of music creation.

It was very difficult to be aware of the new forms in music.
 
Is there a lot of creativity coming from North Corea and Cuba ?
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