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dubovsky 
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 Topic: Why is Novalis listed as "Symphonic Prog"?
Posted: April 18 2011 at 00:10 |
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Why is Novalis listed as "Symphonic Prog"? If the site is going to follow very specific sub-genres for progressive rock music, should it not be as accurate as possible?
Novalis is a german band, and it has established a sound for itself in a very similar manner that is inherent in many of the other Krautrock bands that came from Germany.
Just thought
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Triceratopsoil
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Posted: April 18 2011 at 00:13 |
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They don't really have the krautrock sound.
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dubovsky
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Posted: April 18 2011 at 13:05 |
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It's not that simple enough to just say they don't "sound" like Krautrock. The genre itself doesn't even have a sound. It's mostly experimental, meaning that one band will sound different than another. But at the same time, it strays from the more known bands of the progressive genre such as Genesis or Yes that have the classical influence.
Many people who know Novalis would consider them to be Krautrock because their music happened in the same period when other experimental groups from Germany were developing the culture.
The Progarchives Symphonic Team should get together and discuss this matter.
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harmonium.ro
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Posted: April 18 2011 at 13:19 |
 dubovsky wrote:
It's not that simple enough to just say they don't "sound" like Krautrock. The genre itself doesn't even have a sound. It's mostly experimental, meaning that one band will sound different than another. |
I disagree; many kraut bands don't sound like each other just as much as some symph bands don't sound like each other, or some avant-prog bands don't sound like each other, but they are still symph or avant-prog bands. If we made separate categories to cater for each small bunch of bands that sound the same, and excluding the others, we'd have hundreds and hundreds of categories. Also, being German doesn't make a band krautrock, I think more than half of the German bands on PA are in non-kraut categories.
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dubovsky
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Posted: April 18 2011 at 14:30 |
harmonium.ro wrote:
dubovsky wrote:
It's not that simple enough to just say they don't "sound" like Krautrock. The genre itself doesn't even have a sound. It's mostly experimental, meaning that one band will sound different than another. |
I disagree; many kraut bands don't sound like each other just as much as some symph bands don't sound like each other, or some avant-prog bands don't sound like each other, but they are still symph or avant-prog bands. If we made separate categories to cater for each small bunch of bands that sound the same, and excluding the others, we'd have hundreds and hundreds of categories. Also, being German doesn't make a band krautrock, I think more than half of the German bands on PA are in non-kraut categories. |
I don't get what you disagreed with. You've restated what I said: "one band will sound different than another". I'm not suggesting to create separate categories, and then sub-categories for those categories, but just that I don't understand why a group of people labeled them as "Symphonic prog". What's the basis? Being German doesn't make a band Krautrock, and I did not make any generalization that they are. Majority of the bands from Germany though, are Krautrock. To Germans who were part of the music scene in the 60s and 70s, I think most of the bands that they listened to at that time are considered Krautrock. And I'm not saying that only Krautrock existed at the time. But if you're discussing prog and Germany, with the exception of Eloy and maybe three others, it's Krautrock
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harmonium.ro
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Posted: April 18 2011 at 14:37 |
dubovsky wrote:
I don't get what you disagreed with. You've restated what I said: "one band will sound different than another". I'm not suggesting to create separate categories, and then sub-categories for those categories, but just that I don't understand why a group of people labeled them as "Symphonic prog". What's the basis? |
There's variation inside a genre, that's the basis. Can doesn't sound like Popol Vuh who doesn't sound like Dzyan etc., but compared to symph bands or folk bands or fusion bands they do sound obviously similar enough to group them together. The same in Symphonic: Harmonium, Anglagard or Renaissance don't sound very much like Yes and ELP either, should we move them out?
dubovsky wrote:
Being German doesn't make a band Krautrock, and I did not make any
generalization that they are. |
Being German is the only actual reason you gave in the opening post.
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dubovsky
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Posted: April 18 2011 at 14:58 |
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[QUOTE=harmonium.ro]Being German is the only actual reason you gave in the opening post. [QUOTE=harmonium.ro]
That's not true. That is not the "only actual reason gave in the opening post". I said that they are from Germany, as many other Krautrock bands are, and that they "established a sound for itself in a very similar manner that is inherent in many of the other Krautrock bands that came from Germany"
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harmonium.ro
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Posted: April 18 2011 at 15:00 |
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^ that is very vague, not an actual reason IMO.
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dubovsky
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Posted: April 18 2011 at 15:02 |
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Ok
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Triceratopsoil
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Posted: April 18 2011 at 15:06 |
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The fact of the matter is that they sound like symph prog
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dubovsky
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Posted: April 18 2011 at 15:22 |
You've almost got those four stars Triceratopsoil. I think a few more posts and you'll get it! 
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Tony R
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Posted: April 18 2011 at 15:28 |
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Snow Dog
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Posted: April 18 2011 at 15:41 |
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^ Bit harsh.
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Triceratopsoil
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Posted: April 18 2011 at 15:53 |
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Bit off-topic
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moshkito
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Posted: April 18 2011 at 16:07 |
harmonium.ro wrote:
[QUOTE=dubovsky]
...
I disagree; many kraut bands don't sound like each other just as much as some symph bands don't sound like each other, or some avant-prog bands don't sound like each other, but they are still symph or avant-prog bands. If we made separate categories to cater for each small bunch of bands that sound the same, and excluding the others, we'd have hundreds and hundreds of categories.
Also, being German doesn't make a band krautrock, I think more than half of the German bands on PA are in non-kraut categories.
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The hard part is ... calling Novalis "symphonic" and Eloy/Jane not at all ... and both of those are much more "symphonic" than Novalis ever was, with their use of the keyboards and string and symphonic style of music.
In the end, I think that the part considered "symphonic" needs to be revisited and cleaned up ... because in the end, almost ALL of the progressive genre is symphonic in one way or another by the sheer style of the piece and its length -- more often than not ... but we keep trying to invent something that is not there to help describe something else that we have no words for ... and I'm not sure that just using words out of the blue is a good thing to do ... it makes us look petty, uneducated and just rock fans, instead of intelligent musically knowledgable folks ... whn in the end we are ignoring music history and inventing our own "rock history" ... which has nothing to do with music at all ... and that is simply not true at all ... it all is one ... "music" ... we just don't believe it!
Edited by moshkito - April 18 2011 at 16:08
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Triceratopsoil
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Posted: April 18 2011 at 16:09 |
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Eloy only has one album you could call symphonic, they're much spacier and also not krautrock, and no, many progressive genres aren't remotely symphonic. Prog folk and jr/f, for example
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BaldFriede
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Posted: April 18 2011 at 16:34 |
Triceratopsoil wrote:
Eloy only has one album you could call symphonic, they're much spacier and also not krautrock, and no, many progressive genres aren't remotely symphonic. Prog folk and jr/f, for example
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I beg to differ. Most Eloy albums are quite symphonic; only the earliest fall among Krautock or space rock (a lot of Krautrock was space rock). As to Novalis: "Symphonic fits them quite well, I think.
Edited by BaldFriede - April 18 2011 at 16:35
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 BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Tony R
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Posted: April 18 2011 at 16:43 |
Snow Dog wrote:
^ Bit harsh. |
I can be much harsher.
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Snow Dog
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Posted: April 18 2011 at 16:43 |
Tony R wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
^ Bit harsh. |
I can be much harsher. |
Don't I know it.
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brainstormer
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Posted: April 18 2011 at 21:23 |
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Novalis is a very "nice and polite" band. Like the major symphonic bands, they had a big pop period.
Krautrock bands were always somewhat "rebellious" and I'm not sure how many really had a later pop
period. They also were pretty much oriented towards the historical classical music sound that symphonic acts had,
like acoustic guitar, mellotron, etc. Krautrock always seem to have an edge that made it likeable by
punk types, whereas symphonic does not.
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Why is Novalis listed as "Symphonic Prog"?
