Progressive Metal and "Jazz Influences"

Why is it as soon as a progressive metal band plays a seventh chord, has a little dissonance or has a quite section do most of its fans say they have "jazz influences" or "jazz sections"? It's started to rap me off a little bit, I hear it all the time.

Prime example: a comment from the Genesis vs Death poll saying something along the lines of Individual Thought Patterns draws more from jazz than anything else.

Horsesh*t, sorry. Another example, couldn't help but notice on a Gorguts video someone commenting that they have "strong jazz influences". Where?

In fact, the only metal bands I know of that employ jazz elements (i.e. jazz harmony and improvisation) are Ephel Duath, and Mr Bungle.

Opinions on this please.


Edited by The Pessimist - June 18 2011 at 12:43

Cynic uses some clean extended chords and chromaticism that is more jazzy than metal in places. And it's scattered here and there through some metal.

Mushroom Sword wrote: It's in the drums. And anything similar to Math Rock, the changing time signatures with very tight, Technical drums is enough to say it has Jazz influences. Because it does. It's a great sound, Djent pulls it off great, AAL as well, probably the very best would be Cynic. Considered the founders of "Jazz Metal".

Forgot to mention Cynic.

On the drums thing, jazz drumming is nothing like on a Djent record. Yeah ok it has odd accents and syncopation, but there is plenty of that in African music, although no-one has ever cited that to be of any influence to anyone except for bands like Tool and Intronaut.

Jazz drumming is all about responding to the other musicians' IMPROVISED lines and comping, which couldn't be more absent in Djent.

Granted, these guys are influenced by jazz (modes, whole tone scale, improvisation all round). I can here that. But that still doesn't explain my OP. 90% of prog metal these days is said to have "jazz influence".

uh, Gorguts DOES have strong jazz influences.  Like 75% of the chords they play are 6ths and 9ths and major 7ths.

(ahem) on the 1 album they have related to a discussion of prog metal, that is.  

Edited by Triceratopsoil - June 18 2011 at 13:19

Triceratopsoil wrote: uh, Gorguts DOES have strong jazz influences.  Like 75% of the chords they play are 6ths and 9ths and major 7ths. (ahem) on the 1 album they have related to a discussion of prog metal, that is.

They really aren't. Wagner used 9th, major 7th and 6th chords, but he sure as hell wasn't influenced by jazz. Same with Steve Reich and more modern bands like Isis. It's not just jazz that uses those chords, they can be found in almost every genre of music. There is much more to jazz than that.

Also I'm not hearing any 9th chords in there.

Any guitarsolo in any Meshuggah song sounds uncannily like Allan Holdsworth.

Jazz metal = metal with jazz scales and a drummer who does ghost notes and plays off-beat.

All progressive metal, when compared to "normal" metal, is far more jazz-influenced. Yeah, extended chords aren't JUST in jazz, but that's certainly where they are the most prominent. 

Nathaniel607 wrote: All progressive metal, when compared to "normal" metal, is far more jazz-influenced. Yeah, extended chords aren't JUST in jazz, but that's certainly where they are the most prominent.  Also, you note "modal scales" and "whole note scales" as acceptable reasons for being jazz-influenced. But the majority of jazz doesn't use whole note scales or modal scales! The majority of jazz solos are just based of chords, like most solos.  Thinking of some examples of metal that is clearly influenced by jazz. Some obvious, heavily influenced by jazz bands are;  Diablo Swing Orchestra, Cynic, Exivious, Atheist (especially on "Elements) But I think most progressive metal bands are at least more influenced by jazz than most metal bands. Even if it's just using extended chords, jazzier drums, strange structures. I can't really think of much jazz influenced death/black/sludge metal. I think Intronaut would count, though I'm not super-familiar with them.

But there is much more than extended chords to jazz. And I think you'll find extended chords are just as common in minimalism and other forms of 20th century classical music. Also very prominent in pop.

Jazz solos do use chord tones, yes, but they use chord tones that outline notes of a particular mode. e.g. Miles Davis often used a ii7 in a minor key to outline the dorian mode and another trick I personally use is the mM7 a semitone above a dominant chord, which outlines the altered mode (seventh melodic minor mode). So yes, chord tones are used, but to outline varying modes. You'll seldom find a jazz player that uses straight major and minor modes even 20% of the time. whole tone scale is the same thing, Billy Taylor used the whole tone scale as his preferred skeleton for creating melody.

Diablo Swing Orchestra use more proto-jazz than anything (ragtime and dixieland) so I suppose it still qualifies... Cynic only really have jazz influence in the solos. The rest is just standard metal riffs with a cheeky b2 added in every now and then. Exivious, from what I've heard in this thread, I've admitted is jazz influenced. Atheist just use a bunch a of complex tempo shifts. If you listen to jazz styles, it's mostly a consistant pulse throughout. I can't hear any jazz leanings really, except once again the b2.

I just think that the term is overused. I mean if you're REALLY pedantic about it, even Lil' Wayne is influenced by jazz. You have to draw the line somewhere, and if you compare "jazz metal" with artists like Dizzy Gillespie, then you won't find a strong enough comparison to call it a fusion of the two genres (jazz and metal).

I forgot to mention Intronaut, they are probably the MOST jazz influenced, purely because of the harmony used (the fact they rarely use a natural 4th is an example).