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Is Progressive Rock truly pretentious?

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octopus-4 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is Progressive Rock truly pretentious?
    Posted: December 05 2011 at 13:59
to pretend=to try in advance (from latin praetendo). prae="in front of".

What are we speaking about? There are good lyrics and bad lyrics as well as good music and bad music, or even rappers who pretend to call music what they do. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2011 at 15:56
Originally posted by octopus-4

to pretend=to try in advance (from latin praetendo). prae="in front of".
...from the Latin praetendere = to put forward or stretch forth - originally it meant 'to claim' as in Bonnie Prince Charlie, The Young Pretender who claimed the throne. It was later that it came to mean false claim.
Originally posted by octopus-4

What are we speaking about? There are good lyrics and bad lyrics as well as good music and bad music, or even rappers who pretend to call music what they do. 
It is nothing to do with good or bad music, good or bad lyrics - a piece of music that has good music and lyric can still be called pretentious, though personally I don't believe that any piece of music (good or bad) can ever be pretentious in itself.
 
Pretentious is when the artist or fans makes claims about the music that are attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than it actually possesses. Raising "Prog" to high Art (with a capital "A") and putting on a par with the great Classic works (rather than the really crap classical works that no one has ever heard of) is pretentious in the extreme  - calling Prog anything other than what it is (Popular Rock Music) is pretentious and vainglorious.


Edited by Dean - December 05 2011 at 16:00


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman
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Post Options Post Options   Quote colorofmoney91 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2011 at 16:14
Originally posted by Vompatti

Much of bad music is pretentious regardless of how complex it is.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Triceratopsoil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2011 at 16:29
Originally posted by colorofmoney91

Originally posted by Vompatti

Much of bad music is pretentious regardless of how complex it is.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Earendil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2011 at 17:50
probably
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Post Options Post Options   Quote abnormalist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2011 at 17:58
Well, I think that term has been tossed around way too much. If a musician feels that what he/she creates is more than "just music" and is some kind of spiritual or transcendental experience, then yes it would be pretentious, because it would be pretending to be something it's not.

 There's no denying that music can create very strong emotions, but, at the core, it's just structured sound that happens to please somebody's ears.  Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The Miracle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2011 at 18:06
I like my music to be ambitious, which is the same as pretentious but in a good way. A band can come off as plain pretentious when they try too hard to be "intelligent' or to pull off an overblown concept, but that's not restricted to prog and doesn't have to characterize the band's entire output. So I think it's a valid term to describe the flaws of a particular album or track, but to apply it to a whole genre is a sweeping generalization.
People who dislike challenging or complex music (such as punks and Rolling Stone reviewers) like to use that term as an excuse to dismiss it, so that's how prog got stuck with that stereotype.
>:(
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Alitare Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2011 at 20:33
I dislike theoretically challenging/complex music and not only do I hate Punks/punk music in general, but I also detest Rolling Stone Magazine. I like music to be emotionally challenging, but oh well. Is some progressive rock pretentious? Of course! Most of them pretended that simply changing a song from 4/4 time to 19/4 time and changing the length from 4 minutes to 14 minutes makes the songwriting 'better', which makes me laugh a bit. That's a fair bit of pretense. And then they start thinking that quoting Ayn Rand or singing about Henry VIII makes the music somehow innately 'deeper', as if 'I will choose Free Will' is some illustrious, mind-blowing statement. Golly!

I could meander and rant for hours, but I won't. I'm an anti-prog proggist. I love my Aqualung and 1970's Floyd and Gabriel's Melt is so damn exciting! But I can't really appreciate the 'complexity' and 'technical prowess' aspects to this genre. This isn't intended to be some all-encompassing assessment, nor is it a judgement. I'm merely attempting to express my feelings - not my beliefs, my feelings. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 05 2011 at 20:40
Yes, it is.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2011 at 00:06
Originally posted by Dean

Originally posted by octopus-4

to pretend=to try in advance (from latin praetendo). prae="in front of".
...from the Latin praetendere = to put forward or stretch forth - originally it meant 'to claim' as in Bonnie Prince Charlie, The Young Pretender who claimed the throne. It was later that it came to mean false claim.
Originally posted by octopus-4

What are we speaking about? There are good lyrics and bad lyrics as well as good music and bad music, or even rappers who pretend to call music what they do. 
It is nothing to do with good or bad music, good or bad lyrics - a piece of music that has good music and lyric can still be called pretentious, though personally I don't believe that any piece of music (good or bad) can ever be pretentious in itself.
 
Pretentious is when the artist or fans makes claims about the music that are attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than it actually possesses. Raising "Prog" to high Art (with a capital "A") and putting on a par with the great Classic works (rather than the really crap classical works that no one has ever heard of) is pretentious in the extreme  - calling Prog anything other than what it is (Popular Rock Music) is pretentious and vainglorious.
If this is the definition, I think that there are a lot of examples in the top 100: ELP, Yes, Renaissance, and for different reasons King Crimson and so on... the answer should be "yes", but are we absolutely sure that the absolute value (if something like an absolute value exists) of at least one of their work is not "Art"? How many classical works are possibly pretentious when we go to less known or less important classical artists?

Prog is not classical music and is not jazz, but how can we be sure that in the 22nd Century prog and rock won't be studied in the schools? Thinking to Alice Cooper painted close to Beethoven in the same book is quite funny isn't it?
Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote cannon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2011 at 03:58
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote TODDLER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2011 at 08:28
The word "pretentious" is a  word which is over-used  in the world of prog. The lyrics of prog come across as being pretentious...(there goes that word again), and then you have the musicians composing a concept album. This is what rattles the chains of prog haters. The last thing on earth they want to hear is a story about Aqualung the hobo or the sci-fi of Tarkus, etc, ect....but people of this nature leave out the other chapters and they miss out on great music. Merlin by Halloween, Attic Thoughts by Bo Hanssan, and all sorts of underground prog artists who have taken the music steps beyond what appears to ride the perfect wave on the surface. Pretentious...the word itself...defines a style of music. If prog is like theatre then it is pretenious for it's nature alone. It's what many people around me have always hated about prog. It's ridiculous to consider their viewpoint a weight of honest value. It's all a preference ..however adults have to return to childhood and make fun of the things they dislike in life. I make fun of the news media and also find it annoying. If I dish it out, I should be able to take it. That is why prog should remain a private self-endulgent affair with yourself.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2011 at 08:51
To be into the music just because of song length or difficult time signatures really misses the point and is the definition of pretentious.  If you don't like it simply because it sounds good to you then why bother?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2011 at 09:20
Oh my yes!


Really though, every genre of music is to some extent so watcha gunna do?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The Neck Romancer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2011 at 09:53
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil

Originally posted by colorofmoney91

Originally posted by Vompatti

Much of bad music is pretentious regardless of how complex it is.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote DisgruntledPorcupine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2011 at 09:58
Correct. Complexity has absolutely 0 to do with pretentiousness.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote The Willow Farmer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2011 at 10:39
Originally posted by JS19

When we start topics on this forum called 'How To Convert People To Prog', that's pretentious.
True dat
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Post Options Post Options   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2011 at 10:44
Originally posted by The Willow Farmer

Originally posted by JS19

When we start topics on this forum called 'How To Convert People To Prog', that's pretentious.
True dat
But at least we have a "Vangelis" to show them LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Canterzeuhl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2011 at 10:59
Is it pretentious because we know what we're talking about?

To imagine for a moment I don't know what a time signature is, nor what a Moog sounds like and instead I enjoy a thumping backbeat to grind in a dingy club to, and I asked you what sort of music you like, I don't think you could sound like anything else other than pretentious.

Well, other than boring and unsexy.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 06 2011 at 12:07
Pretentious??  What on earth do you mean??  


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