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Libertarian Thread # 3: Liberty will never die

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    Posted: August 12 2015 at 04:09
The Mitrailleuse has published part two in their article series about the common ideological roots of the anarchist left and the libertarian right. Looks like the connection is something that US libertarians deliberately downplayed when they started networking with mainstream conservatism in the 1970s through think tanks like the Cato Institute?

Notice that the conservative and libertarian sectors of the right are in fact very different ideological traditions, which did not overlap that much until the Thatcher/Reagan era. Which is something The Mitrailleuse has pointed out earlier, since history shows that the free market has not been the friend of traditional moral values.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Toaster Mantis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2015 at 07:18
That's something I've noticed as well, that I find the problem in a good deal of right-wing political philosophy that the prescribed specific policy proposals don't appear to follow by necessity from the underlying theory.

See the case of American urban planner Sarah Perry, who actually contributed a couple articles to that feminist webzine I linked but also blogs at The View From Hell and The View From Hell Yes... she started a second blog at Wordpress since it allows longer posts than Blogspot. At first she started out as some kind of right-libertarian, but now she seems to have drifted into a decidedly collectivist take on political decentralization. Perry's current political standpoint been sometimes been categorized as "secular conservative", but I don't think that's really accurate at all since she considers many traditional social structures and moral values practically impossible to conserve in today's. Her real point is that many of those social structures, even when they appear impractical now, evolved to fill some kind of innate human psychological desire that a functional society needs to take into account in its workings. The fact that fulfilling these psychological needs has to take different forms as the economic and technological nuts and bolts of society changes explains most of the directions cultural evolution takes, as this essay Perry wrote for a philosophical group blog called Carcinisation argues.

The strange thing is that Perry appears to have taken quite a bit from far-right philosophy (as in ultra-nationalist/fascist) in the Mircea Eliade/Martin Heidegger/Oswald Spengler tradition regarding the importance of collective consciousness to maintaining a stable community, but attempting to divorce that orientation towards the primacy of cultural identity from nation-state and religious institutions as we know it... because how easily that collective identities tied to centralized organizations with become not just totalitarian, but vulnerable to abuse of power subverting the organization's declared purpose. An essay titled Weaponized Sacredness she wrote for Ribbonfarm, a philosophical/social-science web journal she edits, with a co-author who wishes to remain anonymous explains this further in detail.

Her specific approach to urban planning looks like it's based on the creation of localized cultural identities that are tied to the smaller local community rather than nationality or religion by allowing the cultivation of a strong level of "ritual consciousness" through active social life. That was a bit of a side tangent, but I just linked to one of the publications that Perry has written for.. and the idiosyncratic path her sociological worldview has taken specifically came from her at first belonging to the libertarian right, only then to attempt finding a way out from the weaknesses of that ideology. 


Edited by Toaster Mantis - July 20 2015 at 04:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2015 at 05:32
Yes, it's a modern day fiction that a libertarian must necessarily be pro-market.  If the question is asked as to how at all could left libertarianism be feasible, well, there is a well known historical exhibit and that's Gandhi.  I am sure the American libertarians on this thread are going to disagree vehemently with that characterisation but there is one thing they have in common with Gandhi: a vociferous opposition to taxes.  Yes, the whole Indian independence movement caught fire through an event that revolved around the taxation of salt.  Gandhi inspired people to voluntarily organise themselves to gain independence from the British.  It was libertarian in that sense even if much of the economic ideology probably wasn't (as in, not free market based).  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Toaster Mantis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2015 at 04:35
Time to resurrect this thread. I've found an interesting article on the oft-forgotten shared philosophical overlap and common historical roots between the anarchist left and the libertarian right. The webzine publishing it belongs to the latter faction, but I've noticed there's a good deal of shared theory between those two camps with many of the disagreements coming from the practical implementation regarding to whether follow a market economy or a socialist one. As a matter of I know a couple people who have switched sides from one to the other.

For the record, this criminally underrated feminist webzine also seems to be covering gender issues from that particular ideological grey zone, with Donna Haraway-style transhumanism being what holds it together in their specific case.


Edited by Toaster Mantis - July 20 2015 at 04:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2015 at 23:55
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

So... what's up 

Not much. Are you even on FB anymore? I'd say I don't think I've seen any sign of you, but my presence there has become quite limited anyway. 
This thread is pretty much just me and rogerthat discussing boring economics because all the libertarians are busy with life/left in a rage. 


Edited by JJLehto - June 10 2015 at 23:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The T Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2015 at 16:52
So... what's up 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2015 at 13:06
Indeed, and outside that direct involvement, it was Bill Gates who spoke about how some of the wealthy, like himself, benefit from various gov policies, IP/patent law, various protections, investment in infrastructure and etc that helps them floruish. Or as economist Mariana Mazzucato said about some research she did: It was largely gov funding of R&D that laid the pieces down for various entrepreneurs to pick up and put together so they can make billions. She also spoke about the highway system, before it the railroad system, canals and gov's role in it which we all should remember from US history class...

I think due to increasingly hostile anti gov sentiment/propaganda so much of this is being forgotten and ignored. I am not sure the extreme limited gov folk fully grasp what a society they want may look like, and they may not realize just how much gov has been a foundation for the wealthy, especially those recently who've made their killings off speculative finance/rising stock markets/owning wealth. To those who do and accept it, or simply are dedicated to less/no gov and don't care than power to em, we all may have our beliefs, but I do think many operate under fanciful notions of magical markets and etc 

We know the myth of perfect markets and how the textbook model simply doesn't exist, but earlier I was watching more videos by Steve Keen who spoke about how our banking system, as we discussed before, can generate booms and busts even without a gov and CB, but he was speaking about how firms may not even operate as we believe, even in an "ideal market" Spoke how many don't operate under MR=MC and even in competitive, non monopolistic markets firms will set prices higher than should be. Like, the very idea about how firm and markets work, even when very ideal, is apparently wrong. Stuff that  I won't take at face value, but he's been right about everything so far, but even for someone as unorthodox as myself I find it hard to belief! 


Edited by JJLehto - June 10 2015 at 23:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2015 at 00:24
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

I can't respect the ones who basically are out to just create some Ayn Rand fantasy land, and support cronyism. 
I of course think even the good libertarians fail to realize their beliefs will create a crony state anyway, but the ones who outright want that, I have much disdain for. (My take: some have said they want to take apart the state so that way the very structure for abuse is lessened, but I feel they do things in reverse: giving the keys to the castle to the upper class/business sectors but arent removing gov, thus feeding the crony state. In theory,they should want to work on dismantling the gov first.) 



This is exactly it.  That apart, there is a certain role that govt has come to play in the 20th century paradigm of running an economy.  At least until we can come up with a new paradigm to replace it, we have to be careful about how we go about dismantling govt or rather what part of govt we dismantle.  It is all too often forgotten that in market driven and socialist economies alike, govt is a major source of employment today.  And employment means consumer demand at the end of the day.  If there isn't enough business activity to account for lost govt jobs, that means lower demand for them too.  The classic business-govt dicohotomy approach of looking at things doesn't really work anymore.  We are not in the Cold War era now and govt and business have come to depend on each other for survival.  What we need is a recalibration of this relationship so that it favours small business rather than big business.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2015 at 00:19
No wonder the link doesn't work, posted it with a double http! Dead

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2015 at 23:37
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

My take on the link, if there's any, between regulation and libertarianism:


Ah link won't workCry
I like the title. I still do believe many libertarians are sincere in their beliefs and hopes, while I feel they are wrong/ill informed/overly ideological I think many people mean it and believe it is what's best. 

My main gripe was at the political level, I think libertarian ideals, surging thanks to Ron Paul, was used and hijacked by the GOP, who has proven they will toss all the rhetoric aside. Which most "true" libertarians agree with. I can respect that. 

I can't respect the ones who basically are out to just create some Ayn Rand fantasy land, and support cronyism. 
I of course think even the good libertarians fail to realize their beliefs will create a crony state anyway, but the ones who outright want that, I have much disdain for. (My take: some have said they want to take apart the state so that way the very structure for abuse is lessened, but I feel they do things in reverse: giving the keys to the castle to the upper class/business sectors but arent removing gov, thus feeding the crony state. In theory,they should want to work on dismantling the gov first.) 

I of course would point to the work of Steve Keen who has shown, using realistic models that actually do reflect real life, even in an economy with no gov and no central bank there can be booms, busts, depressions, debt fueled bubbles but I'm guessing they will either call it BS, or say it's impossible to make predictions using models at all and it's overly complex and etc, can't winLOL


Edited by JJLehto - May 30 2015 at 23:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2015 at 23:32
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Also, I don't think we needed any more proof but, here's a lot of boring sh*t, and a graph, simply plotting the relationship between austerity and growth. 

As it says, one should be hesitant to make bold statements, but it seems safe to say there is absolutely no evidence austerity helps the economy...and I don't think it's insane to say this shows quite plainly it's probably a negative experience for the economy. He even excluded Greece from the chart, which the inclusion of would make the results even more negative. 



Of course, the supporters of austerity have long dropped it's good for the economy, and switched to "It's necessary" "We have to pay off the debt" but I believe most euro nations have seen their debt ratio rise. So I am not sure what justification they use now. 

Pat is busy with his PhD/life, Rob I guess has stopped caring/gotten pre occupied, Logan is busy doing his thing and MoM I think finally left for good because he couldn't stand me. I'd love to have some debate but if not, I'll keep occasionally posting mainstream and/or leftist econ stuffLOL


Austerity in macroeconomic terms means you are squeezing govt debt which would then have to be supported by an expansion in private debt.  So even as the size of govt reduces, with its attendant effects on the economy, private sector is expected to take up the tab for debt in a depressed environment.  Doesn't work.  Fiscal consolidation becomes necessary when fiscal profligacy has been tolerated for too long with the effect of either eroding the country's currency of its value or triggering high inflation or both.  It is not clear that either was a particular problem in Europe and in that case inflating their balance sheets a little to get rid of the debt quickly may have been more prudent.  But the damage is done.  I was just having a discussion with my dad on the way to work on weak demand everywhere you look in the economy...and govts fighting shy of doing what they have done in the past.  It's almost like redistribution of 'wealth' from the poor to the rich.

Oh I of course agree/know austerity during weak economic times is bound to squeeze the economy (thus making Debt rise as it has) just I was being a snarky a****le and getting a final few jabs in that Austerity has literally no ground left to stand on. 
Yeah, I hate to get into such stuff but since this is the net and we can say such things without fear: Yes, I really feel gov in recent decades has been redistributing wealth upward. There's the obvious ways, but there's those subtler ways you talk about, by neglecting demand and leaving things to stand as they are. 

I also still think QE has been a major source of inequality and wish I had the data (or time!LOL) to look into it, I'd be curious if it was possible to figure out what wealth would like if we didn't have QE, or if we let the housing market/asset prices/stocks fall to natural levels. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2015 at 23:27
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

I bought into the gold thing a few years back (not literally - just the arguments for investing) but I'm inclined to agree with some of the comments here. If it all goes Mad Max, gold will be as much use as a marzipan d1ldo.

The funny thing is, (since I'm sometimes accused of being some academic intellectual) I thought it was common knowledge gold or any commodity is a poor investment choice, it is indeed sold to people via Mad Max "When the collapse happens!" though even that, this is never discussed but what happens when the dollar does eventually lose its status? sh*t, if you're smart, and concerned, you will just invest in YuanLOL 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2015 at 09:25
My take on the link, if there's any, between regulation and libertarianism:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2015 at 07:14
Originally posted by JJLehto JJLehto wrote:

Also, I don't think we needed any more proof but, here's a lot of boring sh*t, and a graph, simply plotting the relationship between austerity and growth. 

As it says, one should be hesitant to make bold statements, but it seems safe to say there is absolutely no evidence austerity helps the economy...and I don't think it's insane to say this shows quite plainly it's probably a negative experience for the economy. He even excluded Greece from the chart, which the inclusion of would make the results even more negative. 



Of course, the supporters of austerity have long dropped it's good for the economy, and switched to "It's necessary" "We have to pay off the debt" but I believe most euro nations have seen their debt ratio rise. So I am not sure what justification they use now. 

Pat is busy with his PhD/life, Rob I guess has stopped caring/gotten pre occupied, Logan is busy doing his thing and MoM I think finally left for good because he couldn't stand me. I'd love to have some debate but if not, I'll keep occasionally posting mainstream and/or leftist econ stuffLOL


Austerity in macroeconomic terms means you are squeezing govt debt which would then have to be supported by an expansion in private debt.  So even as the size of govt reduces, with its attendant effects on the economy, private sector is expected to take up the tab for debt in a depressed environment.  Doesn't work.  Fiscal consolidation becomes necessary when fiscal profligacy has been tolerated for too long with the effect of either eroding the country's currency of its value or triggering high inflation or both.  It is not clear that either was a particular problem in Europe and in that case inflating their balance sheets a little to get rid of the debt quickly may have been more prudent.  But the damage is done.  I was just having a discussion with my dad on the way to work on weak demand everywhere you look in the economy...and govts fighting shy of doing what they have done in the past.  It's almost like redistribution of 'wealth' from the poor to the rich.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2015 at 00:52
I bought into the gold thing a few years back (not literally - just the arguments for investing) but I'm inclined to agree with some of the comments here. If it all goes Mad Max, gold will be as much use as a marzipan d1ldo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2015 at 13:43
Also, I don't think we needed any more proof but, here's a lot of boring sh*t, and a graph, simply plotting the relationship between austerity and growth. 

As it says, one should be hesitant to make bold statements, but it seems safe to say there is absolutely no evidence austerity helps the economy...and I don't think it's insane to say this shows quite plainly it's probably a negative experience for the economy. He even excluded Greece from the chart, which the inclusion of would make the results even more negative. 



Of course, the supporters of austerity have long dropped it's good for the economy, and switched to "It's necessary" "We have to pay off the debt" but I believe most euro nations have seen their debt ratio rise. So I am not sure what justification they use now. 

Pat is busy with his PhD/life, Rob I guess has stopped caring/gotten pre occupied, Logan is busy doing his thing and MoM I think finally left for good because he couldn't stand me. I'd love to have some debate but if not, I'll keep occasionally posting mainstream and/or leftist econ stuffLOL



Edited by JJLehto - May 29 2015 at 14:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2015 at 13:26
Shocked


I suppose that isn't really tooo ground breaking, I think most people who've known a cop/have some common sense know the job was much more "boring" than the hyped up TV shows and movies. 
Though I am glad a more critical look has been taken in recent months, given their use of black sites in Chicago (anyone hear about that?? Police holding and torturing people without rights or anything for up to 24 hours!) "overly aggressive" tactics and the not so secret world of racial profiling rearing its ugly head again. 


Still I do feel a bit for them, sometimes they just can't win. I had to laugh that some of the die hard, (quite over the top and irrational) supporters of our glorious police force, instantly started flipping a sh*t on the police officer who asked someone to remove an American flag from his truck (which was blocking his view) all types of horrible things being hurled at him. Ridiculous! 

I still say if we could get a robust economy, especially one where the neediest places have direct help, we could kind of rebuild this country from the bottom up, have our local police forces properly staffed and crime/social tension will naturally ease a bit as people get better off. Oh, and while it may be loathed here to say, increased tax revenues do mean better staffed police forces, no need to buy equipment from the military...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 26 2015 at 10:41
Hey look I'm contributing to this thread:

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2015 at 00:39
Indeed, but sadly some, (some of which I am positive have a vested interest in doing so) push gold as the ultimate long term investment. 
One doesn't even need a class, just the internet, to see its volatility (it's a commodity, Schiff of all should know how boom and bust they are!) but guess the allure is always there, or fear. 

Yeah that actually was the first dislodging of my flirtation with austrian/libertarian econ thought. It just never happened, and the response was often "oh no no the Central Banks hold the price down!" One website claimed, through his magic secret info, gold is "really" at $50,000 and oz and they were certain when the spike finally happened (again, fiat collapse) "The price of gold WILL reach $100,000 an oz" And of course every month this failed "Well the markets dont get it, the CB holds the price down!" and etc...it was too much for me. 




Edited by JJLehto - April 21 2015 at 00:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2015 at 19:29
Gold is not so much a great investment as it is a great store of value. If you lock in money for a good 20 years or so in gold, maybe more, you are very unlikely to lose money on it and you'd probably be sitting on a 20% return for the whole period or something like that.  You can't say that positively about equity or real estate.  In India, passing on gold jewelry as an inheritance is a long standing tradition, esp mothers giving some or a lot of their jewelry to their daughters when they get married. 

But it's not an instrument anybody should be looking at for a medium term investment and by all accounts, Schiff was terribly disappointed that Armageddon didn't materialise soon enough for that mother of gold rallies he's waiting for and he tried to blame the markets for not understanding what was going on, which is nuts.  
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