"Freedom" thread or something

Sheesh, you are brainwashed by party politics and that's fine (well it's not but you're pretty hopelessly stuck) but dont assume we are. Many libertarians (TRUE ones) Ive met, including some here, have said Reagan was pretty sh*t.

And he was
Republicans (masking as limited gov) love him because he lowered taxes on the rich, that's all they want after all.
BUT he actually signed several bills that RAISED taxes (look into it) that ended up wiping out all middle class cuts.
He sent our debt through the roof
Increased our military use, and we still suffer from it. I HOPED democrats would end our addiction to the war drug but that was a fail.
Uh, he didn't eliminate any cabinets, and actually created one. I believe he put more people on Soc Security and far as I know he didn't drastically slash welfare like some knife wielding madman.


It was pretty much all talk and hype, which is great since you (and admittedly many) eat that sh*t up but Ive done research, Reagan wasn't libertarian and 99% of all GOPers arent either.

As for deregulation, Clinton fully supported it and signed THE de-reg bill of them all, the one that ended Glass-Steagall.
Reagan was not a god that got magically placed in power and brainwashed into thinking GAH government is bad! You big gov folk really DO take a grim view of humanity. The ideas were slowly building through the 70s, and Reagan got elected because the ideas were taking hold.

Edit: Also yes, quite a textbook version of history. 1946-1980 = paradise in America   1981 = start of the slow apocalypse. The US, like the world, exploded in growth after WWII because that is what happens. How could it not? Especially our place as #1?? Eventually it cooled off, as happened with most countries. I believe the 70s had stagflation, that was a pretty bad time for the US but it was pre reagan so it never happened.

Really it's the Fed man. That is what you need to look into and make an opinion on. It has so much more to do with a lot of our issues since the late 80s



Edited by JJLehto - July 10 2013 at 18:01

Well I'm glad to hear you say that but you adhere to party still which Im sorry seems insane.
I mean what is the definition of insanity?

Glad you say what you say but I cant take it seriously, and it's not personal. I dont really take a big defender of either side very seriously. The parties are 2 sides of the same corporatist coin, both support the Fed without thought, both support war, irresponsibility, taking our rights.


Yes, I am much less ideological than the guys here. I do support a universal government insurance type deal, as well as a (better run) welfare state, and a role for government. I still dont view government as an inherent evil, because it CAN be done right....I just accepted the nordic dream is just that, and we in the US need less government. It as an entity does bad things to those who enter, and our culture is one FULL of government corruption. But we need more? It's literal insanity, doing more of the same and expecting new results. It goes against human nature, and IMO its naive to think it can be "fixed"




Edited by JJLehto - July 10 2013 at 18:06

dtguitarfan wrote: JJLehto wrote: Sheesh, you are brainwashed by party politics and that's fine (well it's not but you're pretty hopelessly stuck) but dont assume we are. Many libertarians (TRUE ones) Ive met, including some here, have said Reagan was pretty sh*t. And he was Republicans (masking as limited gov) love him because he lowered taxes on the rich, that's all they want after all. BUT he actually signed several bills that RAISED taxes (look into it) that ended up wiping out all middle class cuts. He sent our debt through the roof Increased our military use, and we still suffer from it. I HOPED democrats would end our addiction to the war drug but that was a fail. Uh, he didn't eliminate any cabinets, and actually created one. I believe he put more people on Soc Security and far as I know he didn't drastically slash welfare like some knife wielding madman. It was pretty much all talk and hype, which is great since you (and admittedly many) eat that sh*t up but Ive done research, Reagan wasn't libertarian and 99% of all GOPers arent either. As for deregulation, Clinton fully supported it and signed THE de-reg bill of them all, the one that ended Glass-Steagall. Reagan was not a god that got magically placed in power and brainwashed into thinking GAH government is bad! You big gov folk really DO take a grim view of humanity. The ideas were slowly building through the 70s, and Reagan got elected because the ideas were taking hold. I'm not sure if you're talking to me or not, but I've done my research too, and I'd agree with most of what you just said.  I DO think for myself.  I've just come to different conclusions - namely, I don't think the answer is the standard Libertarian answer of "government shouldn't do anything at all, period.  Because government is evil, plain and simple."  That's madness.  That flies in the face of the last few thousand years of social science.

Government is people.  People can be evil.  So it does not do to empower them with the ability take away people's property and use it for their purposes.  A government is a corporation.  If you don't like corporations deciding things, you shouldn't like government doing it either.

And I will gladly fly in the face of the last few thousand years of social science- whatever that is.  The history of our planet has sucked because of people exerting power over others.  Do you agree?  Or do you like it that way?  It isn't because of Libertarians, let me tell you that.

And let me ask you this: What is the "last few thousand years of social science?"  You fancy yourself a fellow of science.  Where is the data for this?

Social science hasn't been around for 250 years let alone a few thousand.

Epignosis wrote: Padraic wrote: I don't get it.  Minimum wage is a government program to help the poor. Right- which doesn't work because it ultimately results in higher costs of living.

That's exactly what your feudal lords want you to think.  Keep touting the party line, sheeple....

JJLehto wrote: we in the US need less government. It as an entity does bad things to those who enter, and our culture is one FULL of government corruption. But we need more? It's literal insanity, doing more of the same and expecting new results. It goes against human nature, and IMO its naive to think it can be "fixed"

Here's the problem with your logic - you need to take a good look at history and see how things were before the anti-government culture started by Reagan.  Reagan fed on people's racist fears in the south after Carter took away the tax exemption for de-facto segregated "Christian" schools, and convinced everyone that government was evil.  And ever since, the Republican party has been breaking the government and then pointing at it and saying "see how broken it is?!!!  You should re-elect me so I can fix things by making less of these awful government regulations for you!"

Shut up sheeple

Epignosis wrote: dtguitarfan wrote: The T wrote: ^Come on Geoff, when you make posts like that you remind me of another member whose last resort was always insults... ... Instead of explaining why Rob is wrong according to you. I've been called "sheeple" many times by libertarians.  I'm sick and tired of it.  I'm completely unapologetic - I do not have the time to put together well though out arguments for people who are going to deny every single fact I give - it takes so much work to prove to some of these people that facts are facts that you just have to eventually give up on their insanity and move on. Never by me. Never called you sheeple. Never called you a jerk. Never called you an idiot. Never called you one lacking empathy.

I don't need to defend myself to one who believes there should be little to no government and yet works for a public school.  If you truly believe what you say, leave your job.

dtguitarfan wrote: And ever since, the Republican party has been breaking the government and then pointing at it and saying "see how broken it is?!!!  You should re-elect me so I can fix things by making less of these awful government regulations for you!"

I'm not sure how many ties we have to say it, but we are not members of the Republican party. We are not defenders of the Republican party. Attacking the Republican party has zero relevance when talking to libertarians.

dtguitarfan wrote: I don't need to defend myself to one who believes there should be little to no government and yet works for a public school.  If you truly believe what you say, leave your job.

This argument makes no sense. Rob (and I) believes that public school shouldn't exist, not that people should not work at public schools. It doesn't contradict beliefs. For libertarianism to succeed I believe we need an educated populous so having the most proficient educators brings about the elimination of the public school system.

It'd be different if one took a job as an IRS officer or NSA cryptanalyst where you're perpetuating the crime.