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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 06:41
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Hey, how funny, this is exactly what I've been trying to get across to the Libertarians in this thread.


Is there a fact or a point anywhere in that article which should be keeping me awake in thought tonight? It seems awfully short

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Also found out today that Ayn Rand collected Medicare and Social Security.  Interesting.


I see. So what, Ayn Rand was a hypocrite so Libertarianism is bad? Got it.

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Oooh, also, here's how Ayn Rand's philosophy may have killed Sears.
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First, Lampert broke the company into over 30 individual units, each with its own management, and each measured separately for profit and loss. Acting in their individual self-interest, they would be forced to compete with each other and thereby generate higher profits.

What actually happened is that units began to behave something like the cutthroat city-states of Italy around the time Machiavelli was penning his guide to rule-by-selfishness. As Mina Kimes has reported in Bloomberg Businessweek, they went to war with each other.

It got crazy. Executives started undermining other units because they knew their bonuses were tied to individual unit performance. They began to focus solely on the economic performance of their unit at the expense of the overall Sears brand.  One unit, Kenmore, started selling the products of other companies and placed them more prominently that Sears’ own products. Units competed for ad space in Sears’ circulars, and since the unit with the most money got the most ad space, one Mother’s Day circular ended up being released featuring a mini bike for boys on its cover. Units were no longer incentivized to make sacrifices, like offering discounts, to get shoppers into the store.

Sears became a miserable place to work, rife with infighting and screaming matches. Employees focused solely on making money in their own unit ceased to have any loyalty the company or stake in its survival. Eddie Lampert taunted employees by posting under a fake name on the company’s internal social network.

What Lampert failed to see is that humans actually have a natural inclination to work for the mutual benefit of an organization. They like to cooperate and collaborate, and they often work more productively when they have shared goals.  Take all of that away and you create a company that will destroy itself.



Queue the "he's not really a Libertarian" response in 3...2...


I'm sorry. But this is just stupid. First off, it seems like Lampert was just a dick and that has nothing to do with Libertarianism. Secondly, Libertarianism is political philosophy, not a suggestion for how to organize every human endeavor. But that doesn't even matter, because what's being criticized here is a general method that's been very successful for other businesses. I mean just a vague google search will turn up an article like this. Pro-sports teams operate under the same exact premise. It's ridiculous that you take this article as proof of anything. It's a data point, a very vague and unspecific data point. in a rather vast sea. I've admittedly done no sort of meta-analysis on this, but I would think that the results are at least inconclusive as to its efficiency. Then again, the proliferation of commission based jobs would have me think it's skewed towards the opposite side, for example. It seems like the CEO just bumbled in his implementation of the program.

And finally, the article argues that free market principles ruined Sears and forced them to stop using a beneficial business practice which is a result of a free market. This is just a contradiction sitting in light umbrage.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 07:05
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Pro-sports teams operate under the same exact premise.
 
Noone left in the defence, because everyone it trying to become the most popular player LOL
Infact pro sports teams very unliberal, everything is controlled from the top, and you are to do what you are told, with little freedom to do what you like.
Look at the Tour de france, one leader and everyone working for him only, little freedom to make your own goals in life.
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 07:36
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Libertarianism is political philosophy, not a suggestion for how to organize every human endeavor. But that doesn't even matter, because what's being criticized here is a general method that's been very successful for other businesses.

You just don't get it.  I've been accused in this thread of adhering to a belief system that does not match reality.  But as you say that, it becomes apparent to me that you don't understand my belief system.  I've argued the merits of socialism here and immediately people will tell me why governments that were based on a purely socialistic system have fallen apart.  But you misunderstand me - I'm not a socialist.  I'm not a Libertarian either.  I think what we need is a hybrid.  Because if you look at reality what I think you'll find is that we need both.  A system based purely on competition (Libertarianism) falls apart.  A system that has no competition (socialism) falls apart as well.  A system that has no authority structures (Libertarianism) falls apart.  A system that has too much authority (Communism) falls apart as well.  We need the Yin and the Yang together to create balance.  This is why I've brought up the NFL, because they are an example of a system that is combining Capitalism with Socialism quite brilliantly.  Is it a perfect system?  No.  Could it stand some improvement?  Yes.  But that's not the point.

Obamacare is also a pretty brilliant system that combines Capitalism with Socialism, and we are seeing premiums drop rapidly in the places it is being implemented, even though its implementation is not complete....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 07:51
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Also found out today that Ayn Rand collected Medicare and Social Security.  Interesting.


How is that interesting?  She (involuntarily) paid into it, didn't she?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 08:10
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Also found out today that Ayn Rand collected Medicare and Social Security.  Interesting.


How is that interesting?  She (involuntarily) paid into it, didn't she?

A good teacher leads by example.  You want us to believe that living by your principles are not only possible but beneficial?  Show us.

Except you know that in order to do that, you'd have to be living "Little House on the Prairie" style, and you don't want to do that.  You know that would be unpleasant, and everyone else does too.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 08:34
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Also found out today that Ayn Rand collected Medicare and Social Security.  Interesting.


How is that interesting?  She (involuntarily) paid into it, didn't she?

A good teacher leads by example.  You want us to believe that living by your principles are not only possible but beneficial?  Show us.

Except you know that in order to do that, you'd have to be living "Little House on the Prairie" style, and you don't want to do that.  You know that would be unpleasant, and everyone else does too.


It's fallacious to think that social security and Medicare is charity from the government.  It isn't.  It's the people's money.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 08:42
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Also found out today that Ayn Rand collected Medicare and Social Security.  Interesting.


How is that interesting?  She (involuntarily) paid into it, didn't she?

A good teacher leads by example.  You want us to believe that living by your principles are not only possible but beneficial?  Show us.

Except you know that in order to do that, you'd have to be living "Little House on the Prairie" style, and you don't want to do that.  You know that would be unpleasant, and everyone else does too.


It's fallacious to think that social security and Medicare is charity from the government.  It isn't.  It's the people's money.

Ah, so then you're for Social Security and Medicare then?  Which means you're for some form of government/taxation then?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 09:57
I believe victims of theft are entitled to restitution.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 10:37
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I believe victims of theft are entitled to restitution.

It's not theft, it's payment for a service per an implied agreement.  You live on the land of America?  You have an implied agreement to live by their laws.  You work for a company?  You have a contractual agreement to work by their rules, and one of their rules is that they abide by the laws of America's government, including the payroll rules.  Don't like it?  Don't participate in the system.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 10:38
It's easy to despise compulsory contribution to the society when you never needed the services it provides.
I don't like to talk about it but I'm in sickness leave for 10 months now, and I'm f*k glad that I can still receive some income from the social security, otherwise I would probably be homeless by now. I doubt that with my income I would have ever decided to take a private insurance that would have offered me the same coverage, they are expensive and you always tend to think that 'this will not happen to me' so you prefer enjoying your money rather than spending it in an insurance you doubt you will ever need.

When you have a lot of money then it's no problem, you take insurances, but for the many people earning just about enough to live decently, it's very hard to take the decision to spend some of their hardly earned money in insurances, they always hope that disaster will never strike them, but disaster strikes to someone, and then those unlucky ones become miserable if they did not have insurances. A kind of compulsory insurance is not that bad, I tell you, and taxes for social security, healthcare etc are just that, a compulsory insurance.

That part of the money gets misused or goes to pockets who do not deserve it? sure, no doubt about it. Let's try to avoid that as much as possible by more stringent control tools, but going the Libertarian way is ensuring misery for many people who will not have the determination to insure themselves against the many risks life poses.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 10:57
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I believe victims of theft are entitled to restitution.

It's not theft, it's payment for a service per an implied agreement.  You live on the land of America?  You have an implied agreement to live by their laws.  You work for a company?  You have a contractual agreement to work by their rules, and one of their rules is that they abide by the laws of America's government, including the payroll rules.  Don't like it?  Don't participate in the system.


"Their laws?"

Who is they?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 20:24
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:


Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I believe victims of theft are entitled to restitution.

It's not theft, it's payment for a service per an implied agreement.  You live on the land of America?  You have an implied agreement to live by their laws.  You work for a company?  You have a contractual agreement to work by their rules, and one of their rules is that they abide by the laws of America's government, including the payroll rules.  Don't like it?  Don't participate in the system.




Time always wins.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 20:43
Brilliant.

"Implicit mystical consent."  LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 21:25
Is that really the best he's got?  He sounds like some fifteen year-old who just discovered a new idea and wants to share it with everyone , thinking he's doing them a favor.   Of course there's an implicit understanding that we all agree making the country work to the best of its abilities means not always having things our way as cellular individuals somehow detached from a society, able to ignore a law because our independent mind has deemed it unreasonable.

You wanna talk about weak arguments, that guy is the poster child (and I mean child).   If I was interested in advancing Libertarian ideas I'd be distancing myself from that guy awfully fast.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 21:42
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Is that really the best he's got? 



My guess is probably not.  But it was appropriate in the context of this discussion.

There is no implicit agreement.  There is coercion.  Coercion is morally wrong unless you have explicitly entered into a contract with an authority figure.  Appealing to an implied agreement is a lazy way of justifying injustice.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 21:49
^You say, "of course..." but are you going to try and prove that statement?  Can you explain to me in what way I have an obligation to do something I haven't agreed to do?  Or in what way the government or society has the right to impose their will on me?  There is no "implicit understanding," law and justice are not implicit and you cannot base the right to coercive practices on an "implicit" contract that nobody actually signs and that some people (quite obviously from this thread) do not agree to.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 22:04
You know who else has relied upon the "implied agreement" idea?

The Mafia.  Protection rackets, for starters.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/the-government-protection-racket/
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 22:04
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Is that really the best he's got? 

My guess is probably not.  But it was appropriate in the context of this discussion.

There is no implicit agreement.  There is coercion.  Coercion is morally wrong unless you have explicitly entered into a contract with an authority figure.  Appealing to an implied agreement is a lazy way of justifying injustice.

If one is going to mould society, a new or already existing one, he must accept certain assumptions largely because it is impossible to control other people.   You can suggest and hope people don't throw garbage in your yard but you can't prevent it from happening if some misguided jerk is moved to do it.   Well, what then?   Do you take matters in your own hands, try to talk or even threaten, or do you and your wife decide it would be wiser in the long run to call the police.   Even if the cops can't actually do anything to the neighbor [because the police didn't witness it, etc.], they can file a report and you can start to build a small but possibly helpful case (I've had bad neighbors, it can be a nightmare and from time to time over the many years I've done everything from leaving polite notes to screaming bloody vengeance).   Well, those cops and their resources come from the tax base which most people pay because they understand that.  

But yes, you could think of that as a form of coercion if you choose to do so.





Edited by Atavachron - July 19 2013 at 22:09
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 22:26
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Is that really the best he's got? 

My guess is probably not.  But it was appropriate in the context of this discussion.

There is no implicit agreement.  There is coercion.  Coercion is morally wrong unless you have explicitly entered into a contract with an authority figure.  Appealing to an implied agreement is a lazy way of justifying injustice.

If one is going to mould society, a new or already existing one, he must accept certain assumptions largely because it is impossible to control other people.   You can suggest and hope people don't throw garbage in your yard but you can't prevent it from happening if some misguided jerk is moved to do it.   Well, what then?   Do you take matters in your own hands, try to talk or even threaten, or do you and your wife decide it would be wiser in the long run to call the police.   Even if the cops can't actually do anything to the neighbor [because the police didn't witness it, etc.], they can file a report and you can start to build a small but possibly helpful case (I've had bad neighbors, it can be a nightmare and from time to time over the many years I've done everything from leaving polite notes to screaming bloody vengeance).   Well, those cops and their resources come from the tax base which most people pay because they understand that.  

But yes, you could think of that as a form of coercion if you choose to do so.




I don't involve the police.  I clean it up myself.  I don't know if someone threw it into my yard or if the wind put it there.  It happens quite often actually.  I find that it is better to handle the problem myself than get angry about it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2013 at 22:37
Right on, I like the independent spirit, but not everyone is the able bodied correct-thinking Christian man you are, Rob.   I kinda wish they were though I am not a religious man.

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