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Posted: May 02 2012 at 21:36
I would rather say that the easy way out for writing lirycs for a song, is to do a love song. I guess someone like Jon Anderson put his effort into his lirycs, and surely enough he took them very seriously... even though most of us just won't understand them. Well, there's that thing about puting words into the songs because he thought they sounded good with the music, even if they didn't make much sense, but if he did that seriously, I guess it's just as valid and artistic as anything else. In general, I just don't think that progs lirycs are particularly bad. They are, at least, just within the norm of pop-rock lirycs, not worse. Of course, not everyone can be Bob Dylan, but how many other pop-rock artists are there that write lirycs like him? There are some very good liryc writers in prog, and some others who aren't so much, just as in any other musical genere.
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Posted: May 03 2012 at 08:04
Dayvenkirq wrote:
TODDLER wrote:
One reason I do recall: People who bought the album upon the week of it's release, complained that it was too much like a Roger Waters album.
That's funny. The Wall is mostly a Waters album. Did they know that? If yes, what did they think of that?
Weird ... on the post above you talk about getting back on topic and the next post? ... you forget what you said!
Kinda nice to know that when one looks in the mirror the whole idea and concept gets lost ... sort of like the Victorian expression that when the ___ rises, reason goes out the door!
Now, back to the dark side ... it is cloudy outside, and it appears that showers are threatening London's ugly and stinky skies .... it was reported that a rock group thought it was funny to fly a massive plastic pig over areas where it could be dangerous and cause a fire ...
Edited by moshkito - May 03 2012 at 08:05
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
Now, back to the dark side ... it is cloudy outside, and it appears that showers are threatening London's ugly and stinky skies .... it was reported that a rock group thought it was funny to fly a massive plastic pig over areas where it could be dangerous and cause a fire ...
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Posted: May 03 2012 at 08:35
Dellinger wrote:
I would rather say that the easy way out for writing lirycs for a song, is to do a love song.
...
Or yet another song about the dog ... etc ... etc ... or yet another hate song about bad sex or relationships! Ohhh , we forgot ... trash the old lover -- that's always a good theme!
Dellinger wrote:
...
I guess someone like Jon Anderson put his effort into his lirycs, and surely enough he took them very seriously... even though most of us just won't understand them.
...
This is the case with most poetry and writing that is focused. You write "what you see", and what you see is not something that you have enough words to explain to everybody, and/or some folks think you are just being a jerk, or an opinionated idiot trying to invent some fancy words about spirit talk like Jon Anderson has been accused (wrongly) of doing!
The hardest part, is that the folks that are mostly complaining about "lyrics" are not folks that are usually well read, and the only thing they know is "lyrics" ... and they have never read a book in their life ... or perhaps just Cliff Notes ... that's a bit bigger book! ... ohhh ... you go read the Big Book because it tells you the truth!
Dellinger wrote:
...
Well, there's that thing about puting words into the songs because he thought they sounded good with the music, even if they didn't make much sense, but if he did that seriously, I guess it's just as valid and artistic as anything else.
...
It is, but as you suggested above, that is the easy thing to do and what most pop music does with hooks and a few words. You could really call that "rhyme" ... because it is what it is ... but in essence, for poetry and a poetic discussion, that's a cheap rhyme ... pre-fabricated from the dictionary of rhymes on the internet ... so to speak.
However, there is something in there that is a bit different. And there are some rap folks that are actually very good at rhyme ... NOT JUST METER ... and that is one of the strongest differences ... most of the rap and stuff you hear is kid stuff, compared to the more literary and well define stuff.
See if you can get a rapper to write a sonnet! You're not likely to find it ... but see if you can get a Branaugh to rap ... he can't! He doesn't have the musical rhythm (or metronome) in the music. It's a rather funny thing, but newer actors (as opposed to some of these older folks) are actually rather good at turning Shakespeare into rap, or vice versa.
For "progressive", I tend to think that the majority of bands do not have a whole lot more going for them than "ideas" to justify their being a rock band and making music. I'm actually ok with that ... we all deserve a chance ... but it does mean that many times the wording is forced to make a point ... and when you "have to make a point" ... that's when you know it's over blown! The most pointed work, is often the least meaningful altogether. It becomes a "show".
This brings up bands like Genesis that went from nice material, to very strong story related material, wrote a "novel" (The Lamb) and then ... had nothing left but go back to "songs", and "ideas" and ... something less important than the previous stories. I think it was a case of ... the first part matched the time and place and Peter Gabriel ... and the rest ... well, Pete is not here and the drummer does not do masks! And it all changed!
I do not think of it as better or worse, there is some nice music, but lyrically, it is empty for me, and while I can relate to something like "Against All Odds', but it is not as important to my life and experience as all of "Selling England by the Pound" or "The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway".
Dellinger wrote:
...
Of course, not everyone can be Bob Dylan, but how many other pop-rock artists are there that write lirycs like him? There are some very good liryc writers in prog, and some others who aren't so much, just as in any other musical genre.
I have always thought that Roy Harper and Peter Hammill are the other 2 Bob Dylan's over there. The main issue with someone like Roy, is that folks here can't really relate to poetry ... only "lyrics" ... "lyrics" are but a small portion of the work that poetry can do ... I look at it as an expression designed to help you remember a LINE ... not the whole thing, which attracts you to something or other. So you could say ... to be or not to be that is the question is ... just like a lyric ... the problem is ... who the hell cares about the rest? And in a "song" format, or pop music context, no one gives a damn because it is such a good song ... whereas in "progressive" music -- I believe that most folks will always want to do a heck of a lot more than just ... trickery.
Bob Dylan should be considered a poet, not a musician ... but that is another story. The part that makes him special, like Roy and Peter ... is that there is no well to dry up ... it's WHO THEY ARE ... and this is the part that we fail to see. We're expecting some idealistic vision of something or other ... and that is not the case. All of them are very honest, very open, and very direct ... most "lyrics" are rarely so!
Edited by moshkito - May 03 2012 at 08:38
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Posted: May 03 2012 at 09:53
moshkito wrote:
Dayvenkirq wrote:
TODDLER wrote:
One reason I do recall: People who bought the album upon the week of it's release, complained that it was too much like a Roger Waters album.
That's funny. The Wall is mostly a Waters album. Did they know that? If yes, what did they think of that?
Weird ... on the post above you talk about getting back on topic and the next post? ... you forget what you said!
Kinda nice to know that when one looks in the mirror the whole idea and concept gets lost ... sort of like the Victorian expression that when the ___ rises, reason goes out the door!
Now, back to the dark side ... it is cloudy outside, and it appears that showers are threatening London's ugly and stinky skies .... it was reported that a rock group thought it was funny to fly a massive plastic pig over areas where it could be dangerous and cause a fire ...
... ... Hu-hum ... I don't know any Victorian expressions, so I don't know what's in the blank. Besides, are you implying that I should regret the off-topic post? 'Cause I don't want to start a thread on the reaction to The Wall.
Now, back to the actual "dark side": seriously, what is up with Czukay's Movies? ... Now it's in the "I Recommend ... " thread.
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Posted: May 03 2012 at 10:27
RoyFairbanks makes some good points. Prog can sometimes be somewhat oblivious, music for the sake of music. That is fine and I don't think that is taking the easy way out but it does limit its appeal. When I first heard SEBTP, I used to like it at least as much as Dark Side if not more but I can't say that anymore. It doesn't have the purpose and simplicity of DSOTM. Well, it doesn't have to, anything under the sun is valid in art, but I prefer the latter approach. Sometimes progheads get so clued into complexity and technicality and all that jazz that they don't appreciate the potential of a more straight up but well written piece of music to make a lasting impact. It's not like everything that is set in pop structure is just simple, kindergarten music and not 'worthwhile for prog fans'.
With that said, the other extreme is to overrate music merely on account of the lyrics. And I also don't like the idea of dismissing music only because you can't relate to the lyrics. If a musician can write good music, that is the thing that matters most. If he can also complement it with good lyrics, that's a bonus but it doesn't always happen.
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Posted: May 03 2012 at 10:48
Dayvenkirq wrote:
Vibrationbaby wrote:
... Derek Schulman even signed Slipknot and Nickelback ...
Seriously. I know I kid around but I'm not kidding when he was the president of Roadrunner Records he actually signed these bands. I can't stand either. Both unlistenable garbage.
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Posted: May 04 2012 at 08:10
Dayvenkirq wrote:
moshkito wrote:
[QUOTE=Dayvenkirq] [QUOTE=TODDLER]One reason I do recall: People who bought the album upon the week of it's release, complained that it was too much like a Roger Waters album.
... ... Hu-hum ... I don't know any Victorian expressions, so I don't know what's in the blank. Besides, are you implying that I should regret the off-topic post? 'Cause I don't want to start a thread on the reaction to The Wall.
Now, back to the actual "dark side": seriously, what is up with Czukay's Movies? ... Now it's in the "I Recommend ... " thread.
The word that is ____________ , and it is not to be used in this forum. But it is a well known expression in Victorian Literature.
Czukay's "Movies" ... heck, we should also mention "On the Way To The Peak of the Normal" ... but I'm afraid to even mention the bass stuff in there for Trice ... because the music that it is with is not something that some of those quasi-ambient industrialists can usually accept. When I mentioned that "Movies" and "Normal" have Bass on Bass on Bass on Bass with a Bass solo on top, all of them with different effects and tones, no one bothered to go listen and instead told me to get off the thread. I guess that "dirty" bass tone means ... it can't be used in real music!
What you have never heard ... will continue to be something you won't know! But telling me that the bass is "dirty" here or there ... has a way of taking things away from the music for me. I didn't find it, or would ever call it, "dirty bass" in some of the bits that Barclay James Harvest has done. Or Amon Duul 2. Or Can. Or many others ... but then, I doubt these folks will enjoy hearing it on Heldon, or Pierre Henry, or Neu, or Harmonium, or the very early stuff by Kraftwerk, when it was all about adding these effects and see what they do.
Maybe I do need to stop listening to music and go listen to the trash outside on the streets. I wonder if there is more music out there amidst the cats, dogs and hobos!
Edited by moshkito - May 04 2012 at 08:11
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Posted: May 04 2012 at 08:25
Most definitely not, at least in terms of the examples you gave. When a great prog band descends into more commercial, accessible pop-rock a part of me dies. If you're also referring to earlier albums, like pre-KC Giles Giles and Fripp or Genesis' debut, I definitely enjoy those albums, both as a historical document of the evolution of a band and on its own merits. But post peak albums (specifically monstrosities such as say, Civilian by Gentle Giant or and Then There Were Three by Genesis) as a rule I really don't get anything out of other than distaste.
MacGyver can do a super guitar solo with a broom and an elastic band. Can you do better?
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Posted: May 04 2012 at 08:35
rogerthat wrote:
RoyFairbanks makes some good points. Prog can sometimes be somewhat oblivious, music for the sake of music. That is fine and I don't think that is taking the easy way out but it does limit its appeal.
...
I think this is the case with any music. I don't think there is anything out there where the composer/composers (as is the case in a band) have not struggled with the continuity of a piece, and its inevitable direction.
To me, if it is "sometimes oblivious, and music for the sake of music" ... is not as important, mostly because there are a lot of schools out there, and musically educated people, that write and believe in the abstract nature of music and composition ... and modern music has been more about this, than the more obvious melodic stuff that has been the history of music that we all know for at least 500 years.
The "easy way out" for me, is when it returns to the main opening theme, this making it A-B-A ... and yeat another repetition of the original format that is the most liked in all of music, because it is the easiest and the best known and studied form out there. It's hard to study "form" in a Stravinsky, because there is going to be a different form every 3 minutes ... and it is NOT difficult at all to break down "form" in almost ALL of the progressive fathers, with the exception of KC's first album.
"Visual music", which to me KC's first album is, does NOT limit its "appeal". If it does so, it will do so for the folks that are afraid to match the wording to the music, and realize that they are both saying the same thing, at the same time, as if solo'ing together ... which is something that only Amon Duul 2 and Guru Guru have done succeefully on their early albums ... non-stop. Again, this is where the 3rd dimention and understanding of this album comes from ... a veritable and literal interpretation of the words themselves with an instrument, which is an exercise that is used in Advanced Acting theory in theater and film, and was defined in words by Gurdgieff many years ago.
But I wonder if we're simply trying to explain something that we do not have words for ... and if we don't we just need to admit it, not use an expression like .,.. this is not this or that ... because, then all one is doing is mis-directing the possibilities of understanding the piece by confusing the issue and ideas.
The other problem, is us thinking that the words, sometimes, illustrate the music and vice-versa ... and that is a dangerous falacy to fall into ... because it will make you "supposedly" think this and that when you hear something and not something else that you actually feel. At that point the music will fail you and eventually die off. It's the same thing as the typical BS that says that "Major" keys are happy, and "Minor" keys are sad ... which is, by far, the worst description of music ever divised, by folks that really have no feel for music itself ... just their ideas.
This is the part that is "different" in the early stuff ... some of the wording in these things, was not exactly "lyrics" ... I have a hard time when someone says "lyrics" and Greg Lake is screaming in your ears ... don't tell me lies ... and it is accentuated by the drums on top of it ... and all we can say is ... "lyrics" ... and this ain't so. But yeah, Stairway to Heaven ... them is "lyrics", not "truth" words!
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Posted: May 04 2012 at 09:49
moshkito wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
RoyFairbanks makes some good points. Prog can sometimes be somewhat oblivious, music for the sake of music. That is fine and I don't think that is taking the easy way out but it does limit its appeal.
...
I think this is the case with any music. I don't think there is anything out there where the composer/composers (as is the case in a band) have not struggled with the continuity of a piece, and its inevitable direction.
To me, if it is "sometimes oblivious, and music for the sake of music" ... is not as important, mostly because there are a lot of schools out there, and musically educated people, that write and believe in the abstract nature of music and composition ... and modern music has been more about this, than the more obvious melodic stuff that has been the history of music that we all know for at least 500 years.
The "easy way out" for me, is when it returns to the main opening theme, this making it A-B-A ... and yeat another repetition of the original format that is the most liked in all of music, because it is the easiest and the best known and studied form out there. It's hard to study "form" in a Stravinsky, because there is going to be a different form every 3 minutes ... and it is NOT difficult at all to break down "form" in almost ALL of the progressive fathers, with the exception of KC's first album.
"Visual music", which to me KC's first album is, does NOT limit its "appeal". If it does so, it will do so for the folks that are afraid to match the wording to the music, and realize that they are both saying the same thing, at the same time, as if solo'ing together ... which is something that only Amon Duul 2 and Guru Guru have done succeefully on their early albums ... non-stop. Again, this is where the 3rd dimention and understanding of this album comes from ... a veritable and literal interpretation of the words themselves with an instrument, which is an exercise that is used in Advanced Acting theory in theater and film, and was defined in words by Gurdgieff many years ago.
But I wonder if we're simply trying to explain something that we do not have words for ... and if we don't we just need to admit it, not use an expression like .,.. this is not this or that ... because, then all one is doing is mis-directing the possibilities of understanding the piece by confusing the issue and ideas.
The other problem, is us thinking that the words, sometimes, illustrate the music and vice-versa ... and that is a dangerous falacy to fall into ... because it will make you "supposedly" think this and that when you hear something and not something else that you actually feel. At that point the music will fail you and eventually die off. It's the same thing as the typical BS that says that "Major" keys are happy, and "Minor" keys are sad ... which is, by far, the worst description of music ever divised, by folks that really have no feel for music itself ... just their ideas.
This is the part that is "different" in the early stuff ... some of the wording in these things, was not exactly "lyrics" ... I have a hard time when someone says "lyrics" and Greg Lake is screaming in your ears ... don't tell me lies ... and it is accentuated by the drums on top of it ... and all we can say is ... "lyrics" ... and this ain't so. But yeah, Stairway to Heaven ... them is "lyrics", not "truth" words!
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Posted: May 04 2012 at 15:59
RoyFairbank wrote:
Almost every Prog band has a less appreciated part of its discography, which can range from ignored eras to unpopular works to simply less known or available albums.
This is mainly the product of the longevity of Prog bands across different musical epochs and the ups and downs of artistic lifetimes.
As such, I would suggest that common less appreciated albums and periods come most frequently
*in the 80s, when traditional Prog bands were popular but went AOR (think Genesis) *in the 90s (and beyond), when said bands seemed bewildered by changes around them and produced lower quality or stale works while becoming quite unpopular in the mainstream. These albums are also less prominent in terms of recognition from almost every quarter. (think Yes)
There are many others periods of a bands activity which typically may be less appreciated, including very early albums and albums resulting from a change in personnel.
I have found, however, that the "dark side of the discography" is often what I come back to listen to the most. Perhaps this is because such albums are often less demanding, more accessible, has production values I like or find novel or features different band members and playing styles I appreciate.
Examples of particularly disregarded albums that I find among the best of groups that have better known or simply better received eras are:
Invisible Touch By Genesis | Very Interesting Album musically, performance and production wise, very different from early Genesis, but its up there with those old albums for me. Black Moon by ELP | Their best album hands down, some great lyrics and a very cohesive album Aria by Asia | Great 90s AOR style prog type rock, best album by this prog-related band. Big Generator by Yes | Great album, very proggy but still hip by the standards of the time. Time by ELO | barely garnered a third star on Progarchives, but its their best and proggiest album, albeit with early 80s production and pop sensibilities. Freudiana by Alan Parsons Project - virtually unknown out of print album, fantastic prog album, but it is still underrated by the six people who know about it.
And others....
So I generally find the various dark sides of prog discographies to be rewarding and seldom as bad as their rating drops would indicate. A good band will often keep making good material or has made good material even in its pre-prog past, even if it changes what it is doing significantly over time. That said, crap is crap. But one man's trash is another man's treasure.
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Posted: May 05 2012 at 04:01
moshkito wrote:
The "easy way out" for me, is when it returns to the main opening
theme, this making it A-B-A ... and yeat another repetition of the
original format that is the most liked in all of music, because it is
the easiest and the best known and studied form out there.
Does it not therefore also make it more difficult to stand out in that
format, following this train of thought? I don't know what I should say
w.r.t your references to Stravinsky, KC or Amon Duul II because I love
their work. But not every artsy musician is going to execute his
ambitious concepts as well as Stravinsky or Fripp either. Sometimes, I
feel that the mere fact that somebody has decided to take on a tough
format and operate in a niche of art that is 'difficult' and has a more
restricted following places him on a pedestal in the eyes of followers
of that niche. That is something I do not agree with.
There are really
not many prog rock BANDS or ARTISTS, only prog TRACKS. Day in the
Life is also prog and so is Contusion; and artists like Beatles are
very important because they expanded perceptions of what music could be
like for large swathes of music listeners, not just a small niche. And
in doing so, they risked losing the commercial success that had accrued
to them by writing She Loves You or Hard Day's Night while never
possessing the snob value of 'serious' music.
Expanding the scope of
the 'easiest and best known form' is an important pursuit that has
regrettably been abandoned in recent years because anybody who wants to
make some serious music seems to want to do something 'technical' or
'experimental' or 'progressive'.
The "easy way out" for me, is when it returns to the main opening
theme, this making it A-B-A ... and yeat another repetition of the
original format that is the most liked in all of music, because it is
the easiest and the best known and studied form out there.
Does it not therefore also make it more difficult to stand out in that
format, following this train of thought? I don't know what I should say
w.r.t your references to Stravinsky, KC or Amon Duul II because I love
their work. But not every artsy musician is going to execute his
ambitious concepts as well as Stravinsky or Fripp either. Sometimes, I
feel that the mere fact that somebody has decided to take on a tough
format and operate in a niche of art that is 'difficult' and has a more
restricted following places him on a pedestal in the eyes of followers
of that niche. That is something I do not agree with.
There are really
not many prog rock BANDS or ARTISTS, only prog TRACKS. Day in the
Life is also prog and so is Contusion; and artists like Beatles are
very important because they expanded perceptions of what music could be
like for large swathes of music listeners, not just a small niche. And
in doing so, they risked losing the commercial success that had accrued
to them by writing She Loves You or Hard Day's Night while never
possessing the snob value of 'serious' music.
Expanding the scope of
the 'easiest and best known form' is an important pursuit that has
regrettably been abandoned in recent years because anybody who wants to
make some serious music seems to want to do something 'technical' or
'experimental' or 'progressive'.
I think the highlighted part quite insightful i.e. to be innovative or progressive within the parameters of any genre that is defined by some rigorously well tested boundaries is quite some achievement. (I suspect Harmonium tried to teach me this during a discussion we had about Mew) We might compare this with the relatively HUGE margin for error that a hip, happening and more forgiving genre like freeform (whatever/blah) might represent.
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Posted: May 05 2012 at 09:08
^^^ Especially given the "weird is good" assumption I have seen floating around in recent years. I think weird or plain, it can all be very good or very bad and it depends heavily on how purposefully the music has been conceived and how well it is then executed. I guess we do appreciate the contribution of Hendrix here because his music is part of the PA database and that is basically what Hendrix did. He did unthinkable things to the blues and influenced legions of guitarists. What music needs today far more than the next Amon Duul II or Tangerine Dream is the next Hendrix or the next Beatles. There seems to be a dire lack of something cutting edge in popular music now and that will not inspire more people to pick up an instrument.
^ Not sure if we're on the same tack but yes, I heartily loathe the idea that crap weird is somehow considered better or more worthy of our forgiveness/attention than excellent conservative e.g. brilliantly executed and realized popular music forms
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Posted: May 05 2012 at 09:53
Already found something pretty interesting on randomly searching for their songs:
I don't like the 'feel' of this kind of music an awful lot. For something that seems to have been intended to be accessible, it probably ought to grab me more than it does. But it is pretty interesting, might be a band worth investigating for me. Thanks!
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do you like the "dark side" of the discography?
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Dayvenkirq wrote:
... ohhh ... you go read the Big Book because it tells you the truth!
... Hu-hum ... I don't know any Victorian expressions, so I don't know what's in the blank. Besides, are you implying that I should regret the off-topic post? 'Cause I don't want to start a thread on the reaction to The Wall.
...
