I Will Not Go Quietly!

ivan_2068 wrote: For people in USA where Civil Rights and Constitutional protection is the cornerstone of the legal system it’s hard to understand and accept a limitation of the above mentioned rights.   I also understand that for citizens who always felt save from war and terrorism (Since Pearl Harbor no attack has reached USA land until 9/11) it’s almost impossible to understand what the Government must do to protect the LIFE in the case of war on USA floor and you people aren’t willing to sacrifice anything. Well, sadly (I sincerely feel bad for this) war has reached USA and the citizens must learn that one thing is the protection of liberties in peace time and other thing is when you’re under attack.. The prime responsibility of the Government is to protect the life and security even if this means you have to sacrifice some things. Maybe the search without Judicial order will not stop the bombing, but it will help to prevent attacks, and if only one life is saved, the sacrifice is worthy. We have more experience in this case because of almost 20 years with constant terrorists attacks and people protested when some liberties were limited, one of them is that the police without warrant could search any suspicious car. Check Internet and google the phrase “Tarata Street” or “Calle Tarata”  and you’ll see pictures of destroyed buildings and many dead people because of a car full of TNT and Anfo (An agricultural additive that boosts TNT strength 3 or 4 times so that just a trunk of WV full of TNT with Anfo will produce the same effect as a truck loaded with TNT). People say that the search of cars was not effective on that case, but it’s false, the terrorist attack was planned so 4 cars, one in each corner of the block will explode at the same time. Tarata is a not a crowded street in the center of a commercial zone, but the back street is called Avenida Larco (As the Frágil album) with hundred if not thousands of people buying things, in Larco two cars were searched without order and Police found TNT with Anfo, also in the northern corner of Tarata Street another bomb car was found, the last bomb was never found until it exploded. Hundreds of lives were saved that night, because if only one car destroyed  half of a street imagine what 4 cars exploding at the same time (one on each corner) would have caused. It would have been a massacre. Those saved lives justified the sacrifice of  the right of not to be searched without a court order, and I think it’s worth. Then the Government controlled the selling of Anfo, farmers protested, but it was necessary so everybody accepted this. Hard times require of drastic measures. At the end the leader was captured and Terrorism is almost a thing of the past. Many International Courts have justified this measures (at least most of them), so  USA citizens will have to choose between life and some civil rights. And please don’t be so naïve to say that if USA soldiers abandon Iraq the war will end (This doesn’t mean I necessarily agree with Iraq occupation), because  there will be more excuses like the support to Israel or the status of some prisoners or anything else. So I believe that  in emergency cases many unpleasant things must be done by the Government. Iván

Well said Ivan.  And actually, if our people stopped trying to be so politically correct, most of us would lose nothing in the way of rights.  I'm sorry, but whites, african-americans, and hispanics are not going around blowing up subways and flying planes into buildings.  Only those of arab descent are doing that.  To focus solely on those of arab descent, as one commentator put it, would not be racial profiling, it would be identifying the suspect.

stonebeard wrote: ^^^^ as of late that seems to be the case, but white people, and i'm saying this with deep remose for my "race" have most always seen anyone that isn't white as "shifty" or "suspect." I shouldn't be generalizing, but until the civil rights movement in America, we treated black people like sh*t. Even after that we stereotype Latinos and Blacks and Asians. I'm completely beyond that, but remember, there are still clan meetings going on to this day.

I completely understand where you are coming from.  And our race's history in race relations has not been exemplary.  However, when I'm boarding a plane soon after 9/11 and see security harrassing a very young blonde girl next door type, searching her bags and so on for quite a long time, looking for explosives, yet allowing the arab man with the long flowing beard and towel around his head to board without question, I had to ask myself why.  Not only did they allow someone to board the plane who actually looked like he would be capable of hijacking a plane, they harrassed someone who clearly had no such inclination.  Not only is that a dangerous precedent, it's just plain stupid.  I wish the p.c.ers in this country would start to use a little common sense.

But maybe I should be thankful that the p.c. movement is out there protecting us all from the young white girls.

You are taking my words in a wrong context Doctor, I know the main concern of the authorities are the Arabs, but even if this sounds paradoxical if you want to respect the civil rights of everyone, you must suspend a determined civil right for everybody, if not this measures turn into illegal and discriminatory.

The Police should check the blond girl next door because she could be another Patty Hearst who felt in love with a terrorist, the black and white executive because they could be black or white fundamentalists, or the readneck because he could also be part of a local terrorist  group of White Supremacy.

Even the blue eyed blonde German tourist could be  a possible suspect because we know there could exist support groups to Al Qaeda in parts of Europe.

Do you believe the Fundamentalists are stupid? If you believe so, you’re even more stupid, they are planning this war for decades. They won’t send people with Moslem clothing and dark skin to blow a train, they will send someone who will generate no suspects, maybe a white guy from the Arian Iran frontier or a black guy that could pass as a rapper or even a person who could be confused with a Latino.

If you want to be fair, everybody must be searched and if not possible the checkouts must be random, but never directed to a certain community because this is xenophobic and highly discriminatory.

It’s sad to turn a Democracy into a Police system, but if Civil Rights are for everybody, the suspension of one or more of this rights must also apply to everybody.

But most important, police must respect the limits of this suspension, searches must be done to find explosives and/or weapons, NOTHING ELSE, this can’t be an excuse to fight criminality under the cover of National Security.

Nothing different to explosives or weapons can be used as evidence in a trial, and even worst, this search must be declared illegal because the object found doesn’t fit into the characteristics of items to search for.

Or for example use the Patriot Act to search for pirate musical Archives in personal computers, this is illegal. The suspension of civil rights is to search for weapons not for songs.

It’s a very complex situation, but I’m sure USA will survive and this war will end some day, until then, there are sacrifices to be made.

All:

First, thank you for the depth of your comments (even if I don't agree with all of them), and for the support many of you have offered.  A few quick responses.

Doctor:

Timothy McVeigh was white.  So was Terry Nichols.  So was the Unibomber.  Shall I go on?

NJNetsFan:

I was not comparing the NYPD (with whom I work closely) with the Nazis.  But, as at Nuremberg, the NYPD will only be able to say "We were just doing our jobs."  And that is exactly the problem: law enforcement is not permitted to question the orders they are given, no matter how questionable, lunatic or illegal.  This does not make the average cop a Nazi; it makes those in power (police commissioners, etc.) at best misguided, and at worst proto-totalitarian.

Ivan:

As usual, your legal thinking is faultless.  Except that there is no emergency.  As I noted, both London and Madrid have been hit in this manner, yet neither has instituted such a questionable, if not illegal, tactic.  Yet NYC has not only not been hit (in this manner), but Mayor Bloomberg and Police Commissioner Kelly have gone out of their way to make it clear that NYC is not the target of any threat - specified or otherwise.  Thus, the implementation of this tactic is, in the most prima facie sense, illegal under the Fourth Amendment (as well as the NYC Penal Code).

James:

Your post should be required reading for every American citizen. 

Nacho:

The terrorists (assuming there were any...) "won" in the very first days after 9/11 when our government started down the road to the erosion of civil rights, civil liberties and freedom in the name of an illusory "security."  Indeed, the terrorists must be enjoying watching as the Bill of Rights gets shredded little by little - as we slowly come under a "regime" that will become increasingly oppressive and intrusive, just like the one they live under.  Assuming it was Arab terrorists who caused 9/11, their goal was never to Islamicize the U.S. (a virtual impossiblity), but simply to cause us to become increasingly like them: oppressive, proto-totalitarian, quasi-theocratical, etc.

stonebeard and James:

No, there is no coincidence in the second London bombings and the fact that that very day the U.S. Congress was discussing the permanent adoption of much of the Patriot Act.  If everyone would simply put two and two together and get four, it does not take a genius to know that the second bombings (if not the first) had nothing to do with "terrorists."

All:

A dictatorship works when those in power cause everyone to live in constant fear.  That is exactly what is occurring in the U.S.  And they "spin" that fear into more fear.  For example, even after the first London bombings, the average New Yorker rode the subway without so much as a second thought.  I know this because I ride them regularly, and watch and speak with people.  Yet most people, although saddened by the first London bombings, did not "translate" that into fear about the NYC subway system.

By instituting a "police state" action - bag inspection - the government (via its law enforcement agencies) creates a "self-fulfilling prophecy" of fear: there was little or no fear until the tactic was employed, so the tactic becomes an end in itself.  And keep in mind that Commissioner Kelly made it clear that there is no "cut-off" date: this practice will be open-ended.

Let me offer you a few choice quotes by everyone's favorite source of such quotes, George Orwell.  Read them carefully, and consider how they apply to current events, especially in the U.S.

Peace.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome.

All the war-propaganda, all the screaming and lies and hatred, comes invariably from people who are not fighting.

Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them

Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.

In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

In our age there is no such thing as 'keeping out of politics.' All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred and schizophrenia.

One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes a revolution in order to establish a dictatorship.

Political language... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind.

The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. When there is a gap between one's real and one's declared aims, one turns, as it were, instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuttlefish squirting out ink.

The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.

To a surprising extent the war-lords in shining armour, the apostles of martial virtues, tend not to die fighting when the time comes. History is full of ignominious getaways by the great and famous.

War against a foreign country only happens when the moneyed classes think they are going to profit from it.

Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past.

Seems that I have to answer different posts, but that's OK:

The Doctor:

You say:

^^ Well, if it is discriminatory, so be it.  I have yet to hear of a young white girl blowing up a subway station or flying a plane into a building.  Only the Arabs are doing that.

Have you ever read history?

Baader-Meinhof: German Terrorist group formed April 2, 1968 by Andreas Baader and Ulrike Meinhof (both white of course) attacked several USA and Israel targets, kidnapped planes in support to the Palestinian claims and against USA politics.

Patty Hearst, 19 years old  blonde daughter of Publishing Baron William Randolf Hearst, was kidnapped by the Symbionese Liberation Army, but this nice and rich girl was found robbing banks with the SLA and became an activist of the that group. In her case there's the possibility that  she suffered of Stockholm Syndrome and brainwashing, so she was pardoned by Bill Clinton.

On April 9, 1995 a group of USA Citizens bombed the FBI building of Oklahoma City.

So why discriminate if USA has a lot of potential enemies.

If that means we discriminate against Arabs, well that's too bad for them.  Maybe the innocent Arabs will start policing their own if they get tired of the discrimination.  And I don't really care about being fair.  I care about being protected.

Civil Rights are for everybody, and the supresion of any civil right must affect everybody, that's common doctrine in International Courts and USA Supreme Court.

Any law against any ethnic or Religious group is not only discriminatory but puts in movement the machinery that could lead to a genocide. The USA authorities do well in searching everybody and not only the Arab looking people.

Maani wrote:

Ivan: As usual, your legal thinking is faultless.  Except that there is no emergency.  As I noted, both London and Madrid have been hit in this manner, yet neither has instituted such a questionable, if not illegal, tactic.  Yet NYC has not only not been hit (in this manner), but Mayor Bloomberg and Police Commissioner Kelly have gone out of their way to make it clear that NYC is not the target of any threat - specified or otherwise.  Thus, the implementation of this tactic is, in the most prima facie sense, illegal under the Fourth Amendment (as well as the NYC Penal Code).

Believe me my friend, I understand and share your concern, democracy is in danger when constitutional rights are broken, maybe not your democracy but part of your citizenship is already in danger.

Until today terrorists have given the first hit so the authorities are one step behind, there's a "de facto" emergency situation in USA when you can expect an attack anywhere at any moment.

The Supreme Court must give their opinion but I'm sure they will consider this as an Emergency situation.

Even though it sounds as a bad joke, nobody is forcing a citizen to be searched, if they don't want to be searched they can take a cab or walk, legally is an impeccable solution. Tell me you are not used to this things, but put both dangers in a scale, life and security are more important than the right to privacy IMO.

James Lee:

Can you assure me that the searching in airports has not worked dissuading terrorists to use more plains as missiles? Since the search started there has been another attack, and that's something IMO.

Ahh, that's because of the protections, you may respond. Okay, then how far would you be willing to go for your safety? How about a national ID card, with failure to carry it at all times and present it upon demand making you liable for indefinite detainment? How about endless intrusive checkpoints like the old USSR used to have- it sure kept their nation from falling, eh? Would you be happy to live in a country where citizens are encouraged to spy on each other and make anonymous calls to the police about your suspicious behavior (I've already been visited by the police due to one such civic-minded and completely unfounded telephone call, and I expect much worse to come).

Please James we're talking about USA not about the Democratic Campuchea. The Supreme Court and the public opinion would never allow this kind of abuse.

Children being scared of the boogeyman does not make them at war with the boogeyman. When was the last time there was a war in which there was only one attack, and then a series of state 'protections' that threaten freedom and democracy more than the unspecified enemy has? How exactly do you feel safer when no US citizen has been harmed as a result of terrorist activity in this country for almost four years now?

Again, you're making a reduction to absurd, the boogeyman is a fantasy, the war against other countries is not, 9/11 was real, and believe me, today is at least a bit more difficult to attack USA like 9/11 thanks to the preventive measures.

Just to end, I don't live in your country, I hate to be searched when I go to USA and wait for hours, but I understand it's necessary.

I don't support any party or Government in USA because I'm not a citizen of your country, but I believe some prevention won't harm you too mucch, there are lives at risk, value that.

Iván

Ivan:

"Please James we're talking about USA not about the Democratic Campuchea. The Supreme Court and the public opinion would never allow this kind of abuse."

Oh, Ivan!  If only this were true!  You are being either painfully naive or willfully ignorant here (no disrespect intended).  We are already well on our way toward a National ID Card here - and other countries are even further along that road.  London has over 250,000 c/c cameras, with another MILLION planned.  NYC has less than 10,000 - but we are now hearing about plans for tens of thousands more.  People spying on each other?  This is a daily occurrence in the U.S., though you may not hear about it much.  And it is increasing.  There is already widespread use of the Verichip (location device) in pets, and it is now being seriously considered for infants and children with respect to potential abduction.  The logical next step after that?

And you think that "the Supreme Court and public opinion" will have any effect?  It was the Supreme Court that "coronated" our commander-in-thief after the 2000 elections.  And if 69% of the otherwise fairly savvy populace of NYC supports this first quasi-police state action, what on God's earth makes you think they will not "allow" whatever comes next?  Indeed, as long as they are "convinced" by their government-by-fear and the complacent media that feeds them that fear, it is a slam-dunk foregone conclusion that they will accept anything.

James and I are not the only people who can put two and two together and get four.  There are many others, and that number is growing - though far more slowly than it should, and almost certainly not fast enough to overtake the present trend.

Fear.  That is the operative word.  Fear.  It is the ultimate control.  As long as the government continues to play on that fear, feed it, add to it, talk about it, use it as a cudgel and makes sure the media stays complacent, the rapidity with which this country goes down a proto-totalitarian, police state quasi-theocracy will soon make your head spin!!

Peace.

In first place, I must say I have no interest or preference towards any political party in USA because I don't live there, I have reservations respect the war, but still not 100% sure it was not necessary.

So I can talk from a neutral position, USA is far from being a military or dictatorial system, you have more liberties and civil rights than 90% of the countries in the world but want it or not, agree with it or not, you're in the middle of a war, and that's a fact you must accept.

You want to be safe (as possible), well that has a price, you have to resign some civil rights to go in a metro or a bus without being so afraid.

When an attack happens people blame the Government for not taking precautions, but when your Government takes some measures, you're not willing to sacrifice anything.

Don't blame the Government for the cameras or chip implants, if a boy is kidnapped it's better to know where the criminals are taking him, but it's a personal choice, if you don't want it, nobody can force you.

4 or 5 Stores are being robbed as I write this post and at least two persons are being killed, at least the camera leaves a testimony.

Criminality grows everywhere, cameras and chips will be used all around the world, because society needs to protect itself, today some civil rights protect the criminal more than the innocent and that’s ridiculous.

Iván