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Complexity and enjoyment

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HarbouringTheSoul View Drop Down
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    Posted: November 13 2012 at 16:59
Originally posted by progbethyname

the 1990's was grudge/guitar distortion.

Really? Whom did they hold a grudge against? Tongue
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progbethyname View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2012 at 16:07
Originally posted by Sumdeus


Originally posted by progbethyname

IThe 1980's was the age of electric, the 1990's was grudge/guitar distortion.
These are very very broad generalizations. Both metal and hip-hop had many classic eras through the 80's and 90's and a lot of important development happened then. You can't really make it that black and white.


Yup. Right you are. I was thinking on a more prog/rock level than anything else. Not other genres specifically.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sumdeus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2012 at 15:42
Originally posted by progbethyname

IThe 1980's was the age of electric, the 1990's was grudge/guitar distortion.


These are very very broad generalizations. Both metal and hip-hop had many classic eras through the 80's and 90's and a lot of important development happened then. You can't really make it that black and white.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2012 at 15:33
It's a simple. If you don't adapt, you won't survive. The 1980's was the age of electric, the 1990's was grudge/guitar distortion. I think RUSH and GENESIS were the best prog bands to adapting a new sound from being in the 1970's originally. Amazing really.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ytse_Jam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2012 at 14:43
Originally posted by Surrealist

So if 80s hadn't brought any of that, prog would survive for another decade? I don't think so.. You can't just imagine people could listen to the same genre for so many years. If you are a fan you can listen to it for your entire life, as we do, but other people will get tired. context changes, and so does the music, and this happened with metal, punk, grunge, gangsta rap or whatever you want..

I think it would have.. because the Prog artists would have still had the upper hand sonically with top shelf playing and great drumming that would have left other bands in the dust.
You have to consider that if people gets tired of a type of music, labels won't be interested in supporting those bands anymore. No labels money = no records. In fact, the prog bands who wanted to survive the 80s had to change their sound (take Rush, Genesis or Yes). I think that time just changes, nothing can last forever and all we can do is to continue supporting our music underground, like has been done with metal since 90s. I agree that digital surrogates are not comparable with acoustic istruments and the hardly trained musicians of the 70s, but not all modern music is bad, and is full of great musicians out there. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2012 at 09:17
Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul

 
Originally posted by moshkito

and your assumption is that everyone is blind to the psychic world out there ... and its colors and vibrations that emanate.

I haven't even talked about that.
 
I thought you did.
 
This is an area that I am specially attuned to, and while I do not think that I know it, and others don't, I do not ... ever ... doubt what I "see", in front of my eyes or vision ... which is two different things.
 
I'm a writer, and I come off all those visuals, a lot more than I do what my mind thinks or sees, and this is the case with more than half of the artists that we discuss ... but often do not like to talk about, because we can not figure out "where it came from" ... or ... "what it meant".
 
I have an example.
 
We had an exercise in the screenplay class ... and I had nothing. On the night before I went to sleep early and boom ... as I was falling asleep, I dreamt something ... and it woke me up ... I got up and wrote it down ... about 26 pages worth of a screenplay and took it to class in the morning! It ended with a scene of a woman entering a Docvtor's office, and on my notes describing the scene ... it said ... that on his desk there was a flower on a glass and it was in need of some water ... well ... the class spent an hour discussing the "symbol of death" ... and the screenplay did not exist yet! ... but what they did was put something in my mind ... that ended up being there, and I can not tell you if I wanted it or not, but the "dream/vision" was able to suit it. No to mention that the event also taught me another bit about dreams ... that is hard to understand ... I was able to "reset" the dream, in going back to sleep later, and this time I did not wake up when the character "had the accident" in the dream, and I went through all the tunnels and all that fun stuff and had a magnificent night of sleep and rest ... but the main part of the "screenplay" was now written.  It is somewhat similar to "Bad Timing a Sensual Obsession", the Nicolas Roeg film with Theresa Russell, Art Garfunkel and Harvey Keitel.
 
...

Originally posted by moshkito

My thoughts are that you are confusing popular music ... with anything else ... and as such you are not giving the credit or the right for anything else to be done ... that you can not comprehend.

Where are you getting that from? I said exactly the opposite: Everybody has a right to make any music he wants to. Whereas you said people who you perceive as commercial and insincere don't have a right to make music.
 
If there is one thing that irks me, and I might have misinterpreted your comments, is that there are a lot of posters here that lovel "telling" an artist, what progressive is, and what prog is, or is not, when you and I would have a hard time finding anyone that is composing something ... "progressive" ... when most music is put together off one's feelings and a riff or something that one came up with.
 
But, then, of course, it begs the question ... how did Jon, and Rick and Steve, and Chris and Allan create TFTO? ... ohh use a little synthesizer in this passage under my voice, and then when I accentuate the word love, Steve has worked up to it ... etc? etc? ... and now the whole thing gets really fuzzy!
...
Originally posted by moshkito

But, unlike many here, I am a mystic of sorts

That much I understood Confused
[/QUOTE]
 
See? ... the reaction alone, is sad. Because there is a side/sight, I have, that you do not approve, or think it has value ... and of course, you are going to state that I did not interpret that correctly, to defend yourself!
... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2012 at 06:26
Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul

Originally posted by Surrealist

Foxtrot vs Abacab.  I'll have to think that one over. Thumbs Down

I prefer Abacab.
it's all about personal taste but thats like prefering Anne Widdecombe over Carol Vorderman for your choice of an older woman to play hunt the sausage with.....Thumbs Up
Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2012 at 02:48
Originally posted by Surrealist

Dean,

The quote tabs here only take the whole page.. not good.. so NO I AM NOT GOING TO USE IT!  Get that changed so you can use like quotes and I will use it. 

This site needs to get with the times!  This isn't the 70's anymore... although I wish it was Thumbs Up
This forum uses the same Web Wiz Forums software as hundreds of other forums on the internet, all of them use BBcodes quoting just like we do.
 
Why should "Web Wiz" change a system that the rest of us have managed to use perfectly adequately just because you can't be bothered?
 
Originally posted by Surrealist

line quotes..

Most forums also have an edit button for active for at least a few minutes. 
We have one that is active forever, all you need to do is learn how to use it.
 
 
 


If you cannot be wise, pretend to be someone who is wise and then just behave like they would - Neil Gaiman
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Surrealist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 13 2012 at 00:02
line quotes..

Most forums also have an edit button for active for at least a few minutes. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Surrealist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 23:15
Dean,

The quote tabs here only take the whole page.. not good.. so NO I AM NOT GOING TO USE IT!  Get that changed so you can use like quotes and I will use it. 

This site needs to get with the times!  This isn't the 70's anymore... although I wish it was Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Surrealist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 23:12
More credit to Iommi to get that sound with one guitar.  I like Judas Priest, but they had to use two guitars to get that sound.  Same thing with drummers.. Bonham could do more with one kick drum than a lot of the metal guys can with two.

More interesting to have a foot on the kick and high hat.  More textures. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 20:30
Originally posted by Surrealist




They also brought a whole new level of metal crunch and very interesting rhythmic possibilities via the African influences favoured in that decade.


Nothing was heavier or crunchy that Black Sabbath's first album, even to this day.  It's the rawness of those opening power cords that still send a chill up my spine, more than Slayer or any of newer metal bands.  Iommi's Gibson through a Marshall, right onto tape.  No fiddling around.  That's the right way to do it.  Still is.


Come on, Black Sabbath is my favourite metal band but nothing in the 70s was as crunchy as say the Master of Puppets riff.  Black Sabbath didn't have two guitarists for one thing. Sabbath riffs are creepy but I am talking about sheer, crushing power.  The best 80s metal riffs can simply fling you of the window for their sheer force.  Headbanger
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 13:24
Learn to quote Stern Smile


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Surrealist View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Surrealist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 13:02
So if 80s hadn't brought any of that, prog would survive for another decade? I don't think so.. You can't just imagine people could listen to the same genre for so many years. If you are a fan you can listen to it for your entire life, as we do, but other people will get tired. context changes, and so does the music, and this happened with metal, punk, grunge, gangsta rap or whatever you want..

I think it would have.. because the Prog artists would have still had the upper hand sonically with top shelf playing and great drumming that would have left other bands in the dust.  But of course, they would have had to continue making great albums.  If they didn't, then that would leave a void for new bands to come in and make great Prog albums.


They also brought a whole new level of metal crunch and very interesting rhythmic possibilities via the African influences favoured in that decade.


Nothing was heavier or crunchy that Black Sabbath's first album, even to this day.  It's the rawness of those opening power cords that still send a chill up my spine, more than Slayer or any of newer metal bands.  Iommi's Gibson through a Marshall, right onto tape.  No fiddling around.  That's the right way to do it.  Still is.

I'd never choose ABACAB over FOXTROT. To even compare those two albums is a bit extreme.


Well, I don't think Foxtrot gets made in the digital age.  It's the need for them to have been more internally resourceful that gave birth to that amazing recording.  It would have been way too distracting for them to have been pondering which "plugin" to use on the first bridge during "Get em out by Friday".  It's the mindset of experimentation within the confines of analog tape multitracking that pushed these bands in the right direction.  While there was cutting and splicing.. yes agreed, they STILL HAD TO PLAY IT!!!!  at some point.  It's not just practicing the chops.. it's practicing the track inside the other music directly... not just copy and pasting sound files here and there.  The intentions were much more intimate with the music.


Also. I'm very surprised that no one has mentioned RUSH in all of this. Rush is a band that definitely adapted with the times. It was a fight or flight attitude. Rush simply were exhausted from creating monster albums like HEMISPHERES

Are talking about Rush as a Prog band?  The great works were 2112, Farewell to Kings, Hemispheres, Permanent Waves and Moving Pictures.  That's it.  Done.

Signals signaled the end of Rush as a true Prog band.  I think they could have done something much more interesting with Grace Under Pressure using those sounds rather than what they did.  Crimson did it in the 80's and kept things very rooted in classic Prog. 

Rush made a lot of music with those great 5 albums in a very short period of time.  Not sure any other Prog band was ever that productive in such a tight timespan.  I would rather they take some time off and recharge rather than release Signals was obviously a major disappointment coming off Moving Pictures.  I understand they might have been tired of 20 minute opuses... but they didn't do that on Moving Pictures.  I think there was another great album there if they would have paced themselves a bit better.  Signals sounds rushed and out of place in the flow of their work. 
I would much rather hear Geddy play bass than keys.  I would much rather have seen him get even better at playing and singing and playing bass pedals. 

When I get in the mood to put on Rush, I don't reach for Power Windows .... maybe you do though..
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 12:37
Originally posted by moshkito

Originally posted by Surrealist

...
The jazz in Floyd was alive and well in the fingertips of Rick Wright.
 
You ought to take a DAW and separate most of Richard Wright, all the way to Wish You Were Here, from the rest of the band.
 
I'm not sure that "jazz" would be a good term for it ... "alien", "weird", "far out", "strange", "experimental", "off the wall" ... would be much more in line with his doings thatn otherwise.  The only other person doing this today, btw, is Richard Barbieri of Porcupine Tree, but I'm not sure that the band itself can get a wee bit more away from Steven Wilson ... who is thinking he is God right about now, and the only Progressive master out there!
Approve Wright and Barbieri are by far my favourite Prog keyboardists - always understated, never dominating but always necessary.


Edited by Dean - November 12 2012 at 13:40


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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 12:21
Also. I'm very surprised that no one has mentioned RUSH in all of this. Rush is a band that definitely adapted with the times. It was a fight or flight attitude. Rush simply were exhausted from creating monster albums like HEMISPHERES and new they would have to change their sound in order to survive and adapt. Then, in 1981 came one of the greatest progressive rock albums in MOVING PICTURES. RUSH strongly adopted the age of electric that the 80's were carrying very strongly. Geddy strongly stressed the use of synth in his overall sound and that movement gave birth to more gems like SIGNALS, GRACE UNDER PRESSURE and the classic POWER WINDOWS. These albums were less COMPLEX then their previous efforts, but far more enjoyable in my opinion. RUSH achieved their best successes as a band in the 80's and still kept adapting going forward into the 90's. RUSH is one of those bands that have been able to really please their fans because of the diversity and growth of sound they have wielded over 4 decades of music.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 12:02
^^ Overall of I had to choose I'd go with the 80's digital recording techniques. Colour me in digital cause for me it's the best and its an era im most attached to sound wise. very innovative, although I'd never choose ABACAB over FOXTROT. To even compare those two albums is a bit extreme.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 10:10
Originally posted by Surrealist

The argument that for a band to survive they must keep radically changing their sound to survive is questionable.



Radically is a word you have inferred of your own.  I don't think it has been suggested in any of the arguments.  Change is desirable, the degree of change is very relative. 

Originally posted by Surrealist


Look at AC DC.  They have not changed their sound at all.  They still fill arenas. 


And so would Genesis even if they only played their pop songs for the entire set.   You can't use commercial success in favour of one of your arguments and pooh-pooh it with regard to somebody else's argument.   Please attempt to be consistent in your stance.  

Originally posted by Surrealist



What did the 80's bring that was not around before?
Drum machines
Quantization
Midi
Sampling
Digital recording 



They also brought a whole new level of metal crunch and very interesting rhythmic possibilities via the African influences favoured in that decade. 


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Snow Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 08:36
Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul

Originally posted by Surrealist

Foxtrot vs Abacab.  I'll have to think that one over. Thumbs Down

I prefer Abacab.

It's close, but Foxtrot edges it. Supper's Ready wins it for me.
Coldness doth get away with the badness.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote HarbouringTheSoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2012 at 07:41
Originally posted by Surrealist

Foxtrot vs Abacab.  I'll have to think that one over. Thumbs Down

I prefer Abacab.
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