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^^^^ how could any logical thinking listener agree with these bold arguments and opinions. It's obvious that some people who are very traditional get their judgement and common sense thrown out the window. Yeah, eliminate prog metal altogether from the prog genre because of its different production values. It's called creatively valueing digital technology to create wonderful polished work. That's not unnatural that's evolution baby! Anyway, I think I can smell another digital vs analogue battle. This is like crazy religious fundamentalism against prog metal.
Joined: October 12 2012
Location: Squonk
Status: Offline
Points: 232
Posted: November 06 2012 at 23:27
If you look at the paid advertising on this site.. say Magna Carta Records.. they call it Prog Metal.. not progressive rock. It is prog metal.. I am fine with that. I like prog rock.. not prog metal. If I want Metal, and I do like a lot of Metal I will listen to Metal. Metallica, Slayer, Priest, Iron Maiden. Those are driving Metal bands that rock Metal.
However, I am a MUCH bigger prog rock fan.
In Prog Rock you usually have virtuosity at every chair in the band. Prog Rock drumming is NOT "rock drumming. It's basically a jazz player beating on a rock kit. Not limited to just kick, snare, hat and two tom toms, one crash and a ride.
Jazz guys laugh at prog drummers. The jazz purists are very pretentious bunch in my opinion. But we need some of them to venture over to the prog rock drum kit. They can play in odd meter, and understand the dynamic of sensitivity and tone that is required in prog drumming. Listen to Bruford.. or Peart or Allan White, Weathers, Barlow, Giles, Palmer. All these guys could sit in on any jazz gig and get the job done.. but were not afraid to drive it down home either in a rock way... and or in odd time when called to do so. The rock drummers simply are not good enough. The jazz drummers too snooty to do it.
A good Prog bassist listens to both the drummers kick drum and the melodic line of the keys or guitar. They are not just being a rock bassist.. but a true linking point between rhythm and melody. The Rickenbacker was the choice because you could bi amp it and fill in both the low end and upper register for the melodic side. That kind of sound is perfect for Prog rock and one really need not look further anymore than you have a violin, viola and cello in a chamber orchestra. It just works, and it is the bricks and mortar of Prog Rock. Squire, Rutherford, Geddy etc.. loved the Rick and for good reason. Has anyone really come out with a better sounding bass by a long shot than a classic Rickenbacker? Nope on my clock.
All the Prog Rock guitar players could show excellent competency on both electric and acoustic guitar. Hackett, Howe, Fripp, Gilmour, Lifeson etc. They understood tone and texture and explored the possibilities of a much wider sonic spectrum to color the music than just a fuzzy metal setting and a clean setting. The use of a volume pedal is another lost art that could give the feel of a string section. They used distortion... yes, but not pushing it into sillyness.. or out of the genre into the metal sound. That is a sound for Metal Bands and is just fine in that arena. I would speculate that once Ritchie Blackmore saw all the guitarists going with the Metal sound.. he just said no way.. and ended up playing acoustic music.
Where Prog really opened things up are on the ivories. That is where the sounds really were encouraged to be the most experimental. You of course have the grand staples of Hammond Organ, and Moog but also acoustic and electric piano and then of course the symphonic sounds from the Mellotron and the Arp and other similar synths. All those guys could play classical and most had good jazz chops also.
I don't think it is any accident a magazine like Progression dropped their Metal or Dark Pages from the press. It's just a different genre, and Dream Theater is not a progressive rock band.. and neither is Porcupine Tree. I understand that those bands are going to try to get some Metal fans to support them.. but I would stay in Metal if I was a true Metal head. I think the Prog Metal bands are an unoriginal sellout... just my opinion.
Joined: November 06 2012
Location: here
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Points: 8856
Posted: November 06 2012 at 22:12
Complexity is usually relative to a corresponding system or method (tonality, for instance). The music which totally ignores such systems or methods, such as free-jazz, when analyzed according to a system or method, is sometimes considered complex, or considered complex for the very fact that it does not follow such a system (or, in the case of jazz, the concentration involved). I normally use "complex" to refer nonchalantly to harmonic/rhythmic/contrapuntal complexity, but, honestly, it's a buzz word, and most of the definitions you see in this forum will be very similar, but almost always different.
As far as enjoyment goes, I have no concrete criteria with which I rate "complexity" (harmonic/rhythmic/contrapuntal). Sometimes I enjoy it, sometimes I don't. Sometimes, I find this complexity intellectually engaging, but it can often come across as ham-fisted or amateur.
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
Posted: November 06 2012 at 19:57
Surrealist wrote:
For one... if you look at "Red" which is a great example... the guitars are very raw. You can feel the playing. I was working out back in the studio today and happened to put on the first Rush album. I hadn't listened to it in years. I also played in on vinyl and while I would call it a hard rock album.. you can hear the prog coming... and Alex's playing is so free and natural sounding.
I was listening to Tarkus yesterday and again.. it is so raw and natural sounding compared to today's homogenized releases that everyone is doing on ProTools.
I am sure that if you put the guitar tracks, bass tracks.. drum tracks into any digital editing program.. those tracks would not look good.. they would look awful and today's engineers would be burning the midnight oil fixing all the problems...
Metal works when it breathes and feels like humans playing, it really needs that. This over produced digital metal that everyone is buying into is what killed progressive rock in the first place. Fripp never lost sight of tone. Lifeson went back to a more raw sound.
The prog guys of the 70's had the listener's attention because they could play so well, so freely and naturally, and it was believable. They all had their own sound also. Howe with his trebley tone, Hackett with the compressed sustain and all the acoustic playing, Fripp with his unique sound, and all the rock greats had their own sound.. Page, Hendrix, Beck, Santana, Clapton, Schenker, Roth even Van Halen. The Dream theater guitar sound is the overdone heavy distortion sound that sounds like you plugged into a rack at "Guitar Center". So unoriginal.. and so unprogressive.
That is all fine and dandy and I don't necessarily disagree entirely with your comments on DT's guitar sound. I was just referring to your over-generalized "metal has no place in prog" statement. Sorry, metal has had a place in prog from inception. Even Knife Edge is metallic, without guitars. Many compositions of Gentle Giant have metal elements. Return of the Giant Hogweed....etc
Joined: October 12 2012
Location: Squonk
Status: Offline
Points: 232
Posted: November 06 2012 at 19:45
For one... if you look at "Red" which is a great example... the guitars are very raw. You can feel the playing. I was working out back in the studio today and happened to put on the first Rush album. I hadn't listened to it in years. I also played in on vinyl and while I would call it a hard rock album.. you can hear the prog coming... and Alex's playing is so free and natural sounding.
I was listening to Tarkus yesterday and again.. it is so raw and natural sounding compared to today's homogenized releases that everyone is doing on ProTools.
I am sure that if you put the guitar tracks, bass tracks.. drum tracks into any digital editing program.. those tracks would not look good.. they would look awful and today's engineers would be burning the midnight oil fixing all the problems...
Metal works when it breathes and feels like humans playing, it really needs that. This over produced digital metal that everyone is buying into is what killed progressive rock in the first place. Fripp never lost sight of tone. Lifeson went back to a more raw sound.
The prog guys of the 70's had the listener's attention because they could play so well, so freely and naturally, and it was believable. They all had their own sound also. Howe with his trebley tone, Hackett with the compressed sustain and all the acoustic playing, Fripp with his unique sound, and all the rock greats had their own sound.. Page, Hendrix, Beck, Santana, Clapton, Schenker, Roth even Van Halen. The Dream theater guitar sound is the overdone heavy distortion sound that sounds like you plugged into a rack at "Guitar Center". So unoriginal.. and so unprogressive.
<!-- Start Member Post --> <!-- google_ad_section_start --> <div ="msg"> I reckon the old prog bands of the 70s hit a great balance between complexity and songwriting whereas bands like Dream Theater and Porcupine Tree leave me cold.
I've tried and tried and tried to get my hooks into those 2 bands but they just don't get me in a sweat like when I put on some headphones and listen to The Lamb or Animals or TAAB.
I don't know why.
The same thing with alot of modern fusion to great fusion like Mahavishnu or Brand X.
Sometimes too much complexity overshadows the soul of the music.I could not agree more. I would add that too much distortion on the guitars covers up the articulations of the player so the music dies. Few have made it work, but the ones that did took the more classical approach to the endless sustain and used it more as a texture than trying to play a gazzillion notes which just turns to mud. I saw Dream Theater this summer only because we went to see the Crimson guys.. and DT was the most boring thing I have ever seen. My wife actually fell asleep during the show and she loves stuff like Crimson and Vander Graf. I don't think Metal has any place in Prog... I would much rather listen to early Sabbath or Judas Priest if I want Metal.The Metal prog bands use Metal to cover up what they don't know how to do.. which is to articulate the music into something that hits the listener with something more emotionally mysterious.
I cannot begin to tell you how I disagree with what you said here. I think you are way out of line to say that metal all together should be disbanded from the prog genre itself. It has no place to you? Wow. That is pretty cold man. DT are one of the more charming bands that prog has to offer in general. And to site that the metal aspect of their sound is just a way to cover up what they don't know. Listen, your gonna have to explain that one more thoroughly. Explain to me what they should know?? What technical aspect or fluidity is lacking? Aghhhhhh I am not mad but.....
Joined: December 08 2011
Location: Italy
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Points: 502
Posted: November 06 2012 at 12:29
^ So you say metal cannot be prog because DT bored you? I think this is a bit superficial... Or maybe you think that different genres cannot stay together, but.. isn't it what prog is about?
Joined: October 12 2012
Location: Squonk
Status: Offline
Points: 232
Posted: November 06 2012 at 12:12
I reckon the old prog bands of the 70s hit a great balance between
complexity and songwriting whereas bands like Dream Theater and
Porcupine Tree leave me cold.
I've
tried and tried and tried to get my hooks into those 2 bands but they
just don't get me in a sweat like when I put on some headphones and
listen to The Lamb or Animals or TAAB.
I don't know why.
The same thing with alot of modern fusion to great fusion like Mahavishnu or Brand X.
Sometimes too much complexity overshadows the soul of the music.
I could not agree more. I would add that too much distortion on the guitars covers up the articulations of the player so the music dies. Few have made it work, but the ones that did took the more classical approach to the endless sustain and used it more as a texture than trying to play a gazzillion notes which just turns to mud. I saw Dream Theater this summer only because we went to see the Crimson guys.. and DT was the most boring thing I have ever seen. My wife actually fell asleep during the show and she loves stuff like Crimson and Vander Graf.
I don't think Metal has any place in Prog... I would much rather listen to early Sabbath or Judas Priest if I want Metal.
The Metal prog bands use Metal to cover up what they don't know how to do.. which is to articulate the music into something that hits the listener with something more emotionally mysterious.
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16165
Posted: November 06 2012 at 11:34
AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:
odd time sigs, complex arrangements, unusual instrumentation, innovative structures, quirky tempo changes
two words
GENTLE GIANT!
Just heard In A Glass House and reviewed it - here are some of my thoughts...
...
You might want to check out that small interview with Gary Green in Italy talking about the music ... and most of it was not even written down he says! They just played.
This pretty much tells you that there was an idea, maybe some vocals they wanted, but in the end, what went under it, was all ... wide open ... and it appears they did anything they wanted ... and managed to make it work ... and I believe that it takes an insane open-ness and attention to have fun with the details to make this work ... and it did!
I do think that it fell out a bit when they were "forced" ... to follow more strict rock'n'roll guidelines ... that kinda took the sails out of their work. The later albums are nowhere near as good, or as fun, as the early ones.
This puts another spin on "music" that us as progressive something or other, can not even conceive ... and on top of it ... dig this ... on their encore when I saw them, they did this piece ... and during it, all members played drums, guitar, bass, keyboards ... everything! ... all the way to the end ... like they would do 10 bas and move ... 20 bars and move ... and it was obvious that the musicianship and the fun, RULED!
This is lost today, and then some!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
DREAM THEATER's METROPOLIS pt2: SCENES OF A MEMORY. For me, I was and still am blown away by the technical majesty of that album.
Complex? ---extreamly. Song arrangements are wild. Instrumentation is at maximum capacity. Mike Portnoy drumming is unreal. He plays as though he has 8 arms. I dont know how anyone can play like that.
Enjoyment?---you better believe it!!! Honestly, what's not to like?
Do you mean that you consider him to equivalent to the Three Doors Down song "Kryptonite?"
Oh that song has a great intro and that's it for me. Too repetitive. SPRINGSTEEN just really doesn't work for me. His sound is like 4 walls slowly closing in on me. Also, my ex girlfriend loved him and all I can say is that she and Bruce deserve each other cause they are both as equally annoying. ;)
Joined: July 02 2008
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 14256
Posted: November 04 2012 at 07:12
odd time sigs, complex arrangements, unusual instrumentation, innovative structures, quirky tempo changes
two words
GENTLE GIANT!
Just heard In A Glass House and reviewed it - here are some of my thoughts...
t begins with glass smashing, as
if stones were being thrown into windows in a rhythmic meter, on the warm
melodic ‘The Runaway’, and this classic song is literally shattering the
boundaries from the outset. Gentle Giant love to break walls of musical
boundaries down as is evident on all of their earlier albums. The fractured
guitar rhythms, percussion and keyboards are thrown about like stones exploding
into shatters as they hit their target. This album certainly has it’s fair
share of quirky pieces such as ‘An Inmate’s Lullaby’, a paean to a mental
institution, with a ton of crazy glockenspiel, a seizure of guitar chords, and insane
time sigs throughout. The polyphonic or metronomic time sigs are prevalent with
some of the oddest switches in musical tempos you will hear. The music bounces
all over the place and injects that whimsical sense of fun; the band never took themselves as seriously as their critics.
That's complexity and enjoyment
‘Experience’ opens side two with glorious fanfare, along with that weird
high vocal register and some wonderful basslines. The music is a circus
sideshow of keyboard whimsy and frantic guitar spasms. The sigs are twisted
into shapes and turned inside out and the band keep up, tighter beyond compare.
The glockenspiel is followed by courtly a capella harmonies, the trademark of
Gentle Giant. The lead break is fat and muscular and I like how the more forced
vocals break through the technical layers of music.
That's complexity and enjoyment
‘In a Glass House’ ends the album on a mini
epic, opening with intricate phrases on bass, drums, violin, mandolin, chimes
and whatever else they could get their hands on. The medieval troubadour flair
is obvious and the vocals have a nice rhythm spouting imagery of some fanciful musings. The instrumental break is incredible with tons of brass, woodwind
and a dynamic bass punctuation. It is complex and impossible to emulate but
incredibly infectious. When it breaks
into the heavy guitar riff I am completely entranced by this amazing
composition. This is quite possibly the greatest gentle Giant song, they saved
the best for last. It features the weird little courtly moments of Elizabethan
charm sandwiched in between the heavy guitar augmentations, that seems to be
playing in a 29/8 time sig if that were possible, though Gentle Giant make it
possible. It ends with another pot shot of glass breaking and thus a legendary
album was thrown through the glass house of the musical industry to the masses.
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... So am I. 
Surrealist wrote:
I cannot begin to tell you how I disagree with what you said here. I think you are way out of line to say that metal all together should be disbanded from the prog genre itself. It has no place to you? Wow. That is pretty cold man. DT are one of the more charming bands that prog has to offer in general. And to site that the metal aspect of their sound is just a way to cover up what they don't know. Listen, your gonna have to explain that one more thoroughly. Explain to me what they should know?? What technical aspect or fluidity is lacking? Aghhhhhh I am not mad but..... 
