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Complexity and enjoyment

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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Complexity and enjoyment
    Posted: November 06 2012 at 19:57
Originally posted by Surrealist

For one... if you look at "Red" which is a great example... the guitars are very raw.  You can feel the playing.  I was working out back in the studio today and happened to put on the first Rush album.  I hadn't listened to it in years.  I also played in on vinyl and while I would call it a hard rock album.. you can hear the prog coming... and Alex's playing is so free and natural sounding. 

I was listening to Tarkus yesterday and again.. it is so raw and natural sounding compared to today's homogenized releases that everyone is doing on ProTools. 

I am sure that if you put the guitar tracks, bass tracks.. drum tracks into any digital editing program.. those tracks would not look good.. they would look awful and today's engineers would be burning the midnight oil fixing all the problems...

Metal works when it breathes and feels like humans playing, it really needs that.  This over produced digital metal that everyone is buying into is what killed progressive rock in the first place.  Fripp never lost sight of tone.  Lifeson went back to a more raw sound. 

The prog guys of the 70's had the listener's attention because they could play so well, so freely and naturally, and it was believable.  They all had their own sound also. Howe with his trebley tone, Hackett with the compressed sustain and all the acoustic playing, Fripp with his unique sound, and all the rock greats had their own sound.. Page, Hendrix, Beck, Santana, Clapton, Schenker, Roth even Van Halen.  The Dream theater guitar sound is the overdone heavy distortion sound that sounds like you plugged into a rack at "Guitar Center".  So unoriginal.. and so unprogressive. 



That is all fine and dandy and I don't necessarily disagree entirely with your comments on DT's guitar sound.  I was just referring to your over-generalized "metal has no place in prog" statement.  Sorry, metal has had a place in prog from inception.  Even Knife Edge is metallic, without guitars.   Many compositions of Gentle Giant have metal elements.   Return of the Giant Hogweed....etc
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Polymorphia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2012 at 22:12
Complexity is usually relative to a corresponding system or method (tonality, for instance). The music which totally ignores such systems or methods, such as free-jazz, when analyzed according to a system or method, is sometimes considered complex, or considered complex for the very fact that it does not follow such a system (or, in the case of jazz, the concentration involved). I normally use "complex" to refer nonchalantly to harmonic/rhythmic/contrapuntal complexity, but, honestly, it's a buzz word, and most of the definitions you see in this forum will be very similar, but almost always different.

As far as enjoyment goes, I have no concrete criteria with which I rate "complexity" (harmonic/rhythmic/contrapuntal). Sometimes I enjoy it, sometimes I don't. Sometimes, I find this complexity intellectually engaging, but it can often come across as ham-fisted or amateur.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Surrealist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2012 at 23:27
If you look at the paid advertising on this site.. say Magna Carta Records.. they call it Prog Metal.. not progressive rock.
It is prog metal.. I am fine with that.  I like prog rock.. not prog metal. If I want Metal, and I do like a lot of Metal I will listen to Metal.  Metallica, Slayer, Priest, Iron Maiden.  Those are driving Metal bands that rock Metal. 

However, I am a MUCH bigger prog rock fan. 

In Prog Rock you usually have virtuosity at every chair in the band.  Prog Rock drumming is NOT "rock drumming. It's basically a jazz player beating on a rock kit.  Not limited to just kick, snare, hat and two tom toms, one crash and a ride.

Jazz guys laugh at prog drummers.  The jazz purists are very pretentious bunch in my opinion.  But we need some of them to venture over to the prog rock drum kit.  They can play in odd meter, and understand the dynamic of sensitivity and tone that is required in prog drumming.  Listen to Bruford.. or Peart or Allan White, Weathers, Barlow, Giles, Palmer. 
All these guys could sit in on any jazz gig and get the job done.. but were not afraid to drive it down home either in a rock way... and or in odd time when called to do so.  The rock drummers simply are not good enough.  The jazz drummers too snooty to do it.

A good Prog bassist listens to both the drummers kick drum and the melodic line of the keys or guitar.  They are not just being a rock bassist.. but a true linking point between rhythm and melody.  The Rickenbacker was the choice because you could bi amp it and fill in both the low end and upper register for the melodic side.  That kind of sound is perfect for Prog rock and one really need not look further anymore than you have a violin, viola and cello in a chamber orchestra.  It just works, and it is the bricks and mortar of Prog Rock.  Squire, Rutherford, Geddy etc.. loved the Rick and for good reason.  Has anyone really come out with a better sounding bass by a long shot than a classic Rickenbacker?  Nope on my clock.

All the Prog Rock guitar players could show excellent competency on both electric and acoustic guitar.  Hackett, Howe, Fripp, Gilmour, Lifeson etc.  They understood tone and texture and explored the possibilities of a much wider sonic spectrum to color the music than just a fuzzy metal setting and a clean setting.  The use of a volume pedal is another lost art that could give the feel of a string section.  They used distortion... yes, but not pushing it into sillyness.. or out of the genre into the metal sound.  That is a sound for Metal Bands and is just fine in that arena.  I would speculate that once Ritchie Blackmore saw all the guitarists going with the Metal sound.. he just said no way.. and ended up playing acoustic music.

Where Prog really opened things up are on the ivories.  That is where the sounds really were encouraged to be the most experimental.  You of course have the grand staples of Hammond Organ, and Moog but also acoustic and electric piano and then of course the symphonic sounds from the Mellotron and the Arp and other similar synths.
All those guys could play classical and most had good jazz chops also. 

I don't think it is any accident a magazine like Progression dropped their Metal or Dark Pages from the press. It's just a different genre, and Dream Theater is not a progressive rock band.. and neither is Porcupine Tree.  I understand that those bands are going to try to get some Metal fans to support them.. but I would stay in Metal if I was a true Metal head.  I think the Prog Metal bands are an unoriginal sellout... just my opinion. 







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Post Options Post Options   Quote timothy leary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2012 at 23:30
I am glad this site does not agree with your opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2012 at 23:40
LOL ... So am I. Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2012 at 00:06
^^^^ how could any logical thinking listener agree with these bold arguments and opinions. It's obvious that some people who are very traditional get their judgement and common sense thrown out the window. Yeah, eliminate prog metal altogether from the prog genre because of its different production values. It's called creatively valueing digital technology to create wonderful polished work. That's not unnatural that's evolution baby! Anyway, I think I can smell another digital vs analogue battle. This is like crazy religious fundamentalism against prog metal.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2012 at 00:38
Originally posted by Surrealist

If you look at the paid advertising on this site.. say Magna Carta Records.. they call it Prog Metal.. not progressive rock.
It is prog metal.. I am fine with that.  I like prog rock.. not prog metal. If I want Metal, and I do like a lot of Metal I will listen to Metal.  Metallica, Slayer, Priest, Iron Maiden.  Those are driving Metal bands that rock Metal. 

However, I am a MUCH bigger prog rock fan. 

In Prog Rock you usually have virtuosity at every chair in the band.  Prog Rock drumming is NOT "rock drumming. It's basically a jazz player beating on a rock kit.  Not limited to just kick, snare, hat and two tom toms, one crash and a ride.

Jazz guys laugh at prog drummers.  The jazz purists are very pretentious bunch in my opinion.  But we need some of them to venture over to the prog rock drum kit.  They can play in odd meter, and understand the dynamic of sensitivity and tone that is required in prog drumming.  Listen to Bruford.. or Peart or Allan White, Weathers, Barlow, Giles, Palmer. 
All these guys could sit in on any jazz gig and get the job done.. but were not afraid to drive it down home either in a rock way... and or in odd time when called to do so.  The rock drummers simply are not good enough.  The jazz drummers too snooty to do it.

A good Prog bassist listens to both the drummers kick drum and the melodic line of the keys or guitar.  They are not just being a rock bassist.. but a true linking point between rhythm and melody.  The Rickenbacker was the choice because you could bi amp it and fill in both the low end and upper register for the melodic side.  That kind of sound is perfect for Prog rock and one really need not look further anymore than you have a violin, viola and cello in a chamber orchestra.  It just works, and it is the bricks and mortar of Prog Rock.  Squire, Rutherford, Geddy etc.. loved the Rick and for good reason.  Has anyone really come out with a better sounding bass by a long shot than a classic Rickenbacker?  Nope on my clock.

All the Prog Rock guitar players could show excellent competency on both electric and acoustic guitar.  Hackett, Howe, Fripp, Gilmour, Lifeson etc.  They understood tone and texture and explored the possibilities of a much wider sonic spectrum to color the music than just a fuzzy metal setting and a clean setting.  The use of a volume pedal is another lost art that could give the feel of a string section.  They used distortion... yes, but not pushing it into sillyness.. or out of the genre into the metal sound.  That is a sound for Metal Bands and is just fine in that arena.  I would speculate that once Ritchie Blackmore saw all the guitarists going with the Metal sound.. he just said no way.. and ended up playing acoustic music.

Where Prog really opened things up are on the ivories.  That is where the sounds really were encouraged to be the most experimental.  You of course have the grand staples of Hammond Organ, and Moog but also acoustic and electric piano and then of course the symphonic sounds from the Mellotron and the Arp and other similar synths.
All those guys could play classical and most had good jazz chops also. 

I don't think it is any accident a magazine like Progression dropped their Metal or Dark Pages from the press. It's just a different genre, and Dream Theater is not a progressive rock band.. and neither is Porcupine Tree.  I understand that those bands are going to try to get some Metal fans to support them.. but I would stay in Metal if I was a true Metal head.  I think the Prog Metal bands are an unoriginal sellout... just my opinion. 



Nick Mason - Surely not a jazzist but able to play in 7/4 
Roger Waters had a Rickenbaker, too.
Prog metal guitarists have very often the same characteristics. Arjen Lucassen just to mention one, is good at electric and classic maybe not exactly as Steve Hackett but good enough
Deep Purple have been the ancestors of metal IMO. What about Jon Lord?
If what a radio dj once called Porcupink Floyd is not progressive (listen to Radioactive Toy) what is progressive?

I would understand if you'd say that you don't like growling or excessively distorted guitars. I don't like standardisations. If one growls because it's a characteristic of a genre I don't like it too, but can we call "Boris The Spider" a piece of death metal? Can't Pink Floyd's "The Nile Song" be defined as proto-metal? 

What you describe is like the countries borders on a map. They exist on the paper and can influence peoples, but you will not find them in the real world unless somebody builds a wall. Things are more interconnected than what you think and their borders are not clear. Also Arjen Lucassen is not always metal. When Heather Findlay sings on Day Twelve that's more prog-folk, Day Sixteen has growl but also a keyboard interlude in Emerson's style. 

Let me suggest you a couple of albums to change your mind: one is Ayreon's The Human Equation, another is Second Life Syndrome by Riverside. I'm sure that there are prog metal albums better than those two, but they may be enough.

btw currently my favorite genre is progressive electronic.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Surrealist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2012 at 01:29
It's called creatively valueing digital technology to create wonderful polished work. That's not unnatural that's evolution baby! Anyway, I think I can smell another digital vs analogue battle. This is like crazy religious fundamentalism against prog metal.

When you digitally edit using quantization... once that happens... once the band or artist makes that choice.. game over.  End of humanity in the music.  Whether it is the producer or the sound engineer or the home studio musician.. you have just killed your music.  Done, Dead, forget it.  I can hear it a mile away and it's crap.

If Video Killed the Radio Star, digital killed everything that came after that.

A few years ago... I was producing a Prog album... and the drummer lays down a section of the song, which was not a great take, but did have a couple nice fills he liked.  He looked at me and said..."Can you fix the rest of it?"
I said.. sure.. but I think you should play it again.  He didn't want to, and I fixed it all up for him.

Now in the 70's before this quantization garbage... drummers would have to redo the track.  Meaning they had a special pressure on them.. and they came to the studio much more prepared.  They grinded, they practiced, and through that extra shedding became MUCH better at their craft.  Same for all the other musicians.  If you punch, you still have to play it, hit the note, whatever.. but when you quantize, it is NO LONGER THE ARTIST! 

If you want to hear tight,  before the digital age.. then look no further than RUSH.  Permanent Waves, Hemispheres, Moving Pictures.  The reason RUSH became Gods of that era is because they could play that tight and yet it still breathed humanity. 

Dream Theater is the most over produced nonsense I have ever heard.  If you put their music on a screen, you would see perfection gone mad.. lifeless, sterile and void of any realness.  You listen to that nonsense.. not me.

I remember hearing Green Day for the first time... and now a punk band has perfectly clean production.  Green Day did to punk rock what Dream Theater has done for Prog.  Added a true sense of sillyness.




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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2012 at 01:34
Originally posted by progbethyname

This aggression will not stand!   
Really? Then chill out.

Originally posted by Surrealist

It's called creatively valueing digital technology to create wonderful polished work. That's not unnatural that's evolution baby!
OK, that makes no sense at all ... how you worded these sentences.


Edited by Dayvenkirq - November 07 2012 at 01:36
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Surrealist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2012 at 01:38
I agree that Nick Mason was not a jazz player per se, but talk about playing freely.  So uninhibited and open.  I love his playing at the Pompei concert for the dead and buried.  4 guys playing their instruments in real time... pushing boundaries as hard as they could, and they go on to become the biggest band of all time.  They decide to clean things up a bit and create Dark Side of the Moon.  Mason's playing even on DSOTM is very loose if you listen and just gives that album everything it needed to breathe on the underside.  The 80's and 90's releases from the digital age stunk of overproduction.  I'll take Meddle any day over yet another lapse of reason which was so perfectly titled. 

The jazz in Floyd was alive and well in the fingertips of Rick Wright.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2012 at 02:18
Originally posted by Surrealist

I agree that Nick Mason was not a jazz player per se, but talk about playing freely.  So uninhibited and open.  I love his playing at the Pompei concert for the dead and buried.  4 guys playing their instruments in real time... pushing boundaries as hard as they could, and they go on to become the biggest band of all time.  They decide to clean things up a bit and create Dark Side of the Moon.  Mason's playing even on DSOTM is very loose if you listen and just gives that album everything it needed to breathe on the underside.  The 80's and 90's releases from the digital age stunk of overproduction.  I'll take Meddle any day over yet another lapse of reason which was so perfectly titled. 

The jazz in Floyd was alive and well in the fingertips of Rick Wright.
Of course I totally agree with this post, but looking back at your previous one about the drummer who didn't want to play it again, I think we need to make a difference. One thing is an artist who is also professional. the former Arzachel and Egg drummer Clive Brooks said that EGG have new material written by Mont Campbell but they can't record it because they leave too far and don't have budget and he doesn't want to work on tapes and digital files (as Latimer and Scheelhaas did for Rajaz). I understand this position. Edits were frequent in the worse 80s pop when the face and the hair of a singer was more important than the voice. In this case I agree with what you say, but let me introduce you to the music of  Stefano Musso aka Alio Die. He records acoustic and even ethnic instruments, sounds of nature, pieces of wood and edits everything with the electronics. In his case editing is just an additional instrument. I think this is what somebody was calling "Evolution". Your position about editing is similar to those classical directors and teachers who don't like the use of synthesizers because the sound is "not natural". But even a violin is not natural, I don't think that in nature exists anything not built by a man able to produce that sound. Can you imagine what Beethoven could have done even in terms of composing if he had a Korg available at his times?


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Surrealist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 07 2012 at 03:42
I am not talking about editing.  Specifically quantization... which is not editing... so for those not familiar with the term..
quantizing allows the engineer, producer etc to move the kick and snare hits to the nearest 8th or 16th note perfectly.
The software program can line up the peak of the frequency wave to that point of digital perfection.  So it's no longer the artist playing.. it's the computer.  Most everyone is doing it.. and it has become just standard fanfare now.

Athletes are banned for using steroids... musicians should be banned from ever being able to play their instrument again if the use it. 

If I were Pink, I would get em up against the wall.. that CD over there.. it don't sound right to me.. get em up against the  wall.

What Prog album pre digital era sounded cold, lifeless and sterile? None of them.  Post digital ... most all of them.

Editing.. or cutting and splicing tape the old way... well, at least the guys had to play it..
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Post Options Post Options   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2012 at 02:26
Originally posted by Surrealist

It's called creatively valueing digital technology to create wonderful
polished work. That's not unnatural that's evolution baby! Anyway, I
think I can smell another digital vs analogue battle. This is like
crazy religious fundamentalism against prog metal.
When you digitally edit using quantization... once that happens... once the band or artist makes that choice.. game over.  End of humanity in the music.  Whether it is the producer or the sound engineer or the home studio musician.. you have just killed your music.  Done, Dead, forget it.  I can hear it a mile away and it's crap.If Video Killed the Radio Star, digital killed everything that came after that.A few years ago... I was producing a Prog album... and the drummer lays down a section of the song, which was not a great take, but did have a couple nice fills he liked.  He looked at me and said..."Can you fix the rest of it?"I said.. sure.. but I think you should play it again.  He didn't want to, and I fixed it all up for him.Now in the 70's before this quantization garbage... drummers would have to redo the track.  Meaning they had a special pressure on them.. and they came to the studio much more prepared.  They grinded, they practiced, and through that extra shedding became MUCH better at their craft.  Same for all the other musicians.  If you punch, you still have to play it, hit the note, whatever.. but when you quantize, it is NO LONGER THE ARTIST!  If you want to hear tight,  before the digital age.. then look no further than RUSH.  Permanent Waves, Hemispheres, Moving Pictures.  The reason RUSH became Gods of that era is because they could play that tight and yet it still breathed humanity.  Dream Theater is the most over produced nonsense I have ever heard.  If you put their music on a screen, you would see perfection gone mad.. lifeless, sterile and void of any realness.  You listen to that nonsense.. not me.I remember hearing Green Day for the first time... and now a punk band has perfectly clean production.  Green Day did to punk rock what Dream Theater has done for Prog.  Added a true sense of sillyness.


geez. You make it sound like digital music is nothing but a series of algorithms that can be cleaned up with a push of a button on a computer. That's just hurtful. Also, you can't use Dream Theater as the poster child for o early produced digital music. Maybe if you used some tech/extream metal
Band like say NEUROSIS maybe I could sympathize more with the point you are trying to make. Otherwise, I can't buy into, even given your technical background, that DREAM THEATER are simply talentless, lifeless act that depend on digital reproduction to quantify their sound. No way. I think that is B.S. Also, DreamTheater are a terrific live act and give everything they have. FYI John Petrucci is an incredible acoustic guitar player, which is the most natural sounding guitar on the planet. Can't attach a grunge pedal or distort that! I think you need to listen to 'SILENT MAN' and chill out cause that is a beautiful, natural tight sound that you seem to desire.

Also. Don't use Dream theater and Greenday in the same sentence. It makes me cry.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Aquiring the Taste Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2012 at 03:58
Like it or loathe it, Surrealist is correct & knows what he is talking about.
I Have been in the industry for 40 years& I can certainly relate to all of his statements.
Personally, I am delighted that someone cares that much about  preserving the fidelity of Artists' performance.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2012 at 06:30
This thread smacks of the ones usually associated with a typical "Jazz" officionado's sites. Aye it's all about opinions - but to imply that progressive metal has no place on this site is definately prog fundamentalism.
I am mainly turned on by Symphonic Progressive Rock, but I also have a lot of prog metal to listen to when the mood takes me - and I suppose the daddies of prog metal must be DT...Like I have stated in another thread - When i first found this site I didn't even know that prog metal existed!!! - then people started mentioning DT and scenes so I bought it and I was blown away - I had loads of Rush/Sabbath/purple/Zep/Metallica/Saxon and another two dozen heavy metal bands - and yet DT was there and IT WAS DIFFERENT.....The I got SDOIT and I was frigging hooked...
If you start to analyse too much you end up disappearing up your own arse and from in there all music would just sound like extremely muted noise.....


Edited by M27Barney - November 08 2012 at 06:32
Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2012 at 10:14
Originally posted by Surrealist


Jazz guys laugh at prog drummers.  The jazz purists are very pretentious bunch in my opinion.  But we need some of them to venture over to the prog rock drum kit.  They can play in odd meter, and understand the dynamic of sensitivity and tone that is required in prog drumming.  Listen to Bruford.. or Peart or Allan White, Weathers, Barlow, Giles, Palmer. 
All these guys could sit in on any jazz gig and get the job done.. but were not afraid to drive it down home either in a rock way... and or in odd time when called to do so.  The rock drummers simply are not good enough.  The jazz drummers too snooty to do it.


Alan White or Peart in a jazz gig?  Heavens no!  I like my prog rock and I like my favourite prog rock drummers in prog rock.  And as good as Bruford was at improvisation, I don't really fancy the idea of such a loud, heavy drummer in a jazz set.  Collins had the tone and we know he was a fantastic fusion drummer.  Good for bebop?  I don't know.  I don't want to imagine, hypothesize or extrapolate because it is a meaningless exercise when applied to music anyway. 

Originally posted by Surrealist



All the Prog Rock guitar players could show excellent competency on both electric and acoustic guitar.  Hackett, Howe, Fripp, Gilmour, Lifeson etc.  They understood tone and texture and explored the possibilities of a much wider sonic spectrum to color the music than just a fuzzy metal setting and a clean setting.  The use of a volume pedal is another lost art that could give the feel of a string section.  They used distortion... yes, but not pushing it into sillyness.. or out of the genre into the metal sound.  That is a sound for Metal Bands and is just fine in that arena.  I would speculate that once Ritchie Blackmore saw all the guitarists going with the Metal sound.. he just said no way.. and ended up playing acoustic music.  


I wonder wherefrom you establish this specious differentiation between Lifeson and the Dream Theater guitarist Petrucci.   At least Petrucci plays some delectable solos from time to time and his problem is usually more about getting crowded out by their overenthusiastic keyboardists.   Whereas I am hard pressed to name one Lifeson lead I would really like to listen to over and over.  As for texture, Bellamy and Greenwood/Yorke would probably do much better than Lifeson.  But of course, they are modern guitarists, they don't know sh*t about music, it's just the computer recording all those tones, right?  Wink

And your take on Blackmore is not entirely accurate.  When Blackmore left Deep Purple, he went even more metal with Rainbow and steered the band to AOR in the 80s.  Dead   The acoustic phase happened much later in the day; by the time he did so, a whole generation of wannabe Eddie Van Halens had come and gone. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2012 at 10:34
Originally posted by Surrealist

I am not talking about editing.  Specifically quantization... which is not editing... so for those not familiar with the term..
quantizing allows the engineer, producer etc to move the kick and snare hits to the nearest 8th or 16th note perfectly.
The software program can line up the peak of the frequency wave to that point of digital perfection.  So it's no longer the artist playing.. it's the computer.  Most everyone is doing it.. and it has become just standard fanfare now.



I completely agree that quantizing is terrible and sucks the life out of the drumming.  But it's simply not true that all bands and artists use quantization either.  You just haven't heard the ones that don't.  Actually, I doubt if you'd notice if you did because you have made up your minds about a lot of things already.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Surrealist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2012 at 14:42
If it sounds too perfect it usually is. 

I have never said Dream Theater were not "talented".  I would love to hear them play naturally in a room with a lot less distortion so I could hear what they were playing on guitar and bass, and take the headphones and click track off the drummers ears.  Just play and let it breath a bit.

Music IS NOT about being perfect.... anymore than painting is about trying to mimic photography. 

Did anyone read the article (interview) on the Dream Theater Drummer in Progression magazine last month?  He talked about how stressful it is to sit behind that drum throne in that band with all the responsibility there is to play everything perfectly.  He can't talk to people before the show or have a bite to eat with friends.  Is this really what it's about? 

I saw the Crimson guys open up for them in SF this summer.. I went to see Crimson Projeckt not DT.  the CP was so much more exciting to watch because it felt dangerous.  They could go anywhere at anytime... very improvisational in it's feel and approach while adhereing to some structure of course.  Those guys are constantly looking at one another for cues and timing.. DT... I might as well just say home and listen to their CD.   There was so much distortion on the giutar that I couldn't hear a thing he was playing.  John McLaughlin used distortion, but not THAT MUCH.. you could hear everything he was doing. 

Why should DT not be on this forum?  Well, I agree they are a Progressive Metala band.. yes.. but I am looking up at the top of my browser and this page is called PROGRESSIVE ROCK MUSIC FORUM... not metal forum.

I feel like DT is not a prog rock band.. nor are they a good metal band, because if you want METAL!!! then do METAL!!
Metal is about attitude, heavy and intense, driving, passionate and heart felt.  Give me Priest or Slayer or early Metallica any day over DT. 

I understand they have lots of hard core fans who think it's cool the drummer won a contest about the fastest drum roll ever recorded by a human being.  Or that they can move quickly from one odd meter to another then into another and another... but this is not music.  Chops yes.. but it's not always about chops.

Pink Floyd was never about chops, and I am sure Gilmour could rip fast solos if he wanted.. but he is a musician first and foremost who cares about the music more than exploring his own egotistical need for self gratification.

I SHOULD like DT... I like Prog.. I like Metal.. I love odd meters and all the ingredients.. but I also like ice cream and pickles but not in the same blender.

The GREAT Prog bands always kept it musical and used meter changes tastefully to EXPRESS emotion, a feeling, a change in lyrical direction or whatever... it was INTRINSICALLY tied to the music.  Listen to Foxtrot, listen to Tarkus, Close to the Edge.  This is how you do it.  There was always a flow.. a sensibility to it... Supper's Ready..


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Post Options Post Options   Quote AtomicCrimsonRush Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2012 at 16:28
Metal is not prog?


This guy disagrees with you Headbanger
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Sumdeus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2012 at 16:34
Some metal is prog, but I personally think most "prog metal" is not progressive and is just crappy metal that follows prog cliches.

when i think metal that is progressive i think


I would also argue that a lot of definitive metal was progressive in essence. Something like early Burzum is quintessential black metal now, but if you look at the context it was truly a very unique thing, unlike anything else and certainly pushing the limits on music. Same with the Gorguts' Obscura album. call it technical death metal or avant garde death metal or whatever but it certainly holds the spirit of progressive music

to me that is infinitely more progressive than a band like BTBAM or DT where it's just silly carnival music jumping from place to place with no direction but constantly going "OOH SHINY GIMMICKS LOOK AT ME!!!"


Edited by Sumdeus - November 08 2012 at 16:40
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