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Complexity and enjoyment

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HarbouringTheSoul View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HarbouringTheSoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2012 at 19:01
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

though I do think that I pretty much nailed that hook from "A Cry For Everyone" in my head.

Really? I can sing the vocal melody without a problem, but I have a very hard time remembering exactly how the riff that underpins it goes.

(Not saying I don't believe you, but I find it very impressive if you can remember it that well)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2012 at 19:10
^ Oh, yeah ... they play it a few a times in the song ... and I must have heard it three times in a single day. Don't forget it that it's my most favorite part in the whole song.
"Books were only one type of receptacle where we stored a lot of things we were afraid we might forget. There is nothing magical in them at all. The magic is only in what books say, ... ."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2012 at 18:11
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

They just compose, release it from their creative mind and move on. I know prog musicians experience this and I like the concept.

 
All musicians and composers have a form of this ... in fact all "artists" have it, and this is the part that is hard for many people to deal with when it comes to "art" versus a commercial product. The "populist idea of music, is a concept that tells the artist what to do, based on what the "audience" likes and buys ... and this -- generally -- means that the person putting together the work is either a slave to that audience (money is a really good prostitute!), or he/she will not abide to be a slave,and do his own thing.
 
The history of "progressive" music is about people that never quit on their "world" ... and they are all "eccentrics" in many ways that not many of us can relate to. You can talk all day about Peter ... and realize ... how could he and his band survive? ... you have to commit to the work ... not anything else. THAT has beenone of the most valuable things about Peter Hammill and VdGG -- the sheer independence of it all. Same goes for Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze and only a handful of folks that never gave in to the slavery concept. All of their work is about their inner ability to articulate their work -- and share it with us!
 
The other music, I do NOT suspect, since what I do in my own writing of poems is similar ... my dreams become short stories and my visions the poems ... since I see my "inner movie" really well, and MUSIC, for me, is about illustrating that ... nothing else, btw! If the music does not illustrate anything for me (like Bruce has to do with lyrics), I tune out ... because sometimes it is just an emotional cry-out in the name of art ... and while I believe that everyone has a right to do that, not all of them have the right to steal the "inner truth" and lie to you for the sake of commercialism!  Or use the "show" to sell you something that is supposed to be valuable ... but is not ... it's coloring by numbers!
 
That said, it is always strange when you hear Deuter and he says that it is all dedicated to the Rajneesh, and you listen to the music ... gee ... must be nice ... rich folks just having food sex, dope a little religion and ... ohh yeah ... some far out music while you're at it! That's a bit hard to take, and smacks of crap and vanity! And the same for many "Christian" this and that the love to use a quote or two, and that makes them "religious", or worse ... "channellers" ... just like you and I can not sit here and channel Stephen King, or Aleister Crowley ... it's down right hippocritical ... and besides, why the heck would anyone not want to "quote the father" (otherwise known as quote the inner source!), and instead rely on second rate definitions and translations? ... yeah!
 
Remember that it's NOT a concept for many of us ... it is WHAT we SEE ... and thus the difference in the wording ...and sometimes the tough part in explaining things. You have to be able to see that in the person ... is he/she writing what they see, or are they just telling you how to think --- how socialistic and commercial that is, hey?
... none of the hits, none of the time ... now you know what the inner art is all about!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote My Dreaming Hill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2012 at 19:16
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:


Originally posted by Manuel Manuel wrote:

for me, complexities is mainly a factor product of orchestration ad arrangements. Sometimes musicians get to entangled in complexity, making their music a little dull. complexity is good, provided it conveys the emotions and the ideas the music is meant to express.

Exactly my thought.
I also agree.

My pet peeve with this, though, is how some bands (typically metal) refuse to touch back on previous movements. Their songs are however many minutes of this -> this -> this with no sense of.. completion, I guess.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HarbouringTheSoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2012 at 19:19
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

and while I believe that everyone has a right to do that, not all of them have the right to steal the "inner truth" and lie to you for the sake of commercialism!

Everybody has a right to make any music. And I find it presumptuous that you would base your assessment of a piece of music on what you think is the intent behind it - you usually have no way of knowing if your assumption is correct. To dismiss an album just because you assume it was made with a commercial intent is not only close-minded but besides the point: What's important is the quality of music, not the intent of the composer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jellybeantiger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2012 at 21:34
I reckon the old prog bands of the 70s hit a great balance between complexity and songwriting whereas bands like Dream Theater and Porcupine Tree leave me cold.
 
I've tried and tried and tried to get my hooks into those 2 bands but they just don't get me in a sweat like when I put on some headphones and listen to The Lamb or Animals or TAAB.
 
I don't know why.
 
The same thing with alot of modern fusion to great fusion like Mahavishnu or Brand X.
 
Sometimes too much complexity overshadows the soul of the music.
 
 
 
Trying to spread the good prog to mud eared Aussies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ytse_Jam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2012 at 06:56
^ Who says complexity could't be part of that soul?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AtomicCrimsonRush Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2012 at 07:12
odd time sigs, complex arrangements, unusual instrumentation, innovative structures, quirky tempo changes

two words

GENTLE GIANT!

Just heard In A Glass House and reviewed it - here are some of my thoughts...


t begins with glass smashing, as if stones were being thrown into windows in a rhythmic meter, on the warm melodic ‘The Runaway’, and this classic song is literally shattering the boundaries from the outset. Gentle Giant love to break walls of musical boundaries down as is evident on all of their earlier albums. The fractured guitar rhythms, percussion and keyboards are thrown about like stones exploding into shatters as they hit their target. This album certainly has it’s fair share of quirky pieces such as ‘An Inmate’s Lullaby’, a paean to a mental institution, with a ton of crazy glockenspiel, a seizure of guitar chords, and insane time sigs throughout. The polyphonic or metronomic time sigs are prevalent with some of the oddest switches in musical tempos you will hear. The music bounces all over the place and injects that whimsical sense of fun; the band never took themselves as seriously as their critics.




That's complexity and enjoyment


‘Experience’ opens side two with glorious fanfare, along with that weird high vocal register and some wonderful basslines. The music is a circus sideshow of keyboard whimsy and frantic guitar spasms. The sigs are twisted into shapes and turned inside out and the band keep up, tighter beyond compare. The glockenspiel is followed by courtly a capella harmonies, the trademark of Gentle Giant. The lead break is fat and muscular and I like how the more forced vocals break through the technical layers of music. 



That's complexity and enjoyment






‘In a Glass House’ ends the album on a mini epic, opening with intricate phrases on bass, drums, violin, mandolin, chimes and whatever else they could get their hands on. The medieval troubadour flair is obvious and the vocals have a nice rhythm spouting imagery of some fanciful musings.
 The instrumental break is incredible with tons of brass, woodwind and a dynamic bass punctuation. It is complex and impossible to emulate but incredibly infectious.  When it breaks into the heavy guitar riff I am completely entranced by this amazing composition. This is quite possibly the greatest gentle Giant song, they saved the best for last. It features the weird little courtly moments of Elizabethan charm sandwiched in between the heavy guitar augmentations, that seems to be playing in a 29/8 time sig if that were possible, though Gentle Giant make it possible. It ends with another pot shot of glass breaking and thus a legendary album was thrown through the glass house of the musical industry to the masses. 





That's complexity and enjoyment


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2012 at 13:45
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:


Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

SPRINGSTEEN is my kryptonite.
Do you mean that you consider him to equivalent to the Three Doors Down song "Kryptonite?"


Oh that song has a great intro and that's it for me. Too repetitive. SPRINGSTEEN just really doesn't work for me. His sound is like 4 walls slowly closing in on me. Also, my ex girlfriend loved him and all I can say is that she and Bruce deserve each other cause they are both as equally annoying. ;)
Raving and drooling I leaned on his neck with a screeeeeeeamm! ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote coupons Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2012 at 05:34
Thanks for the above post it has all the vital i9nfos to add up to the flavour
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2012 at 12:59
DREAM THEATER's METROPOLIS pt2: SCENES OF A MEMORY. For me, I was and still am blown away by the technical majesty of that album.

Complex? ---extreamly. Song arrangements are wild. Instrumentation is at maximum capacity. Mike Portnoy drumming is unreal. He plays as though he has 8 arms. I dont know how anyone can play like that.

Enjoyment?---you better believe it!!! Honestly, what's not to like?
Raving and drooling I leaned on his neck with a screeeeeeeamm! ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2012 at 13:03
When I first saw this thread I immediately thought of National Health. 

How's this for complex and enjoyable?

“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AtomicCrimsonRush Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2012 at 05:44
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

When I first saw this thread I immediately thought of National Health. 

How's this for complex and enjoyable?



Oh yes!!!!!!ClapClapClapClapClap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2012 at 11:34
Originally posted by AtomicCrimsonRush AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:

odd time sigs, complex arrangements, unusual instrumentation, innovative structures, quirky tempo changes

two words

GENTLE GIANT!

Just heard In A Glass House and reviewed it - here are some of my thoughts...

...
 
You might want to check out that small interview with Gary Green in Italy talking about the music ... and most of it was not even written down he says! They just played.
 
This pretty much tells you that there was an idea, maybe some vocals they wanted, but in the end, what went under it, was all ... wide open ... and it appears they did anything they wanted ... and managed to make it work ... and I believe that it takes an insane open-ness and attention to have fun with the details to make this work ... and it did!
 
I do think that it fell out a bit when they were "forced" ... to follow more strict rock'n'roll guidelines ... that kinda took the sails out of their work. The later albums are nowhere near as good, or as fun, as the early ones.
 
This puts another spin on "music" that us as progressive something or other, can not even conceive ... and on top of it ... dig this ... on their encore when I saw them, they did this piece ... and during it, all members played drums, guitar, bass, keyboards ... everything! ... all the way to the end ... like they would do 10 bas and move ... 20 bars and move ... and it was obvious that the musicianship and the fun, RULED!
 
This is lost today, and then some!
... none of the hits, none of the time ... now you know what the inner art is all about!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Surrealist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2012 at 12:12
I reckon the old prog bands of the 70s hit a great balance between complexity and songwriting whereas bands like Dream Theater and Porcupine Tree leave me cold.
 
I've tried and tried and tried to get my hooks into those 2 bands but they just don't get me in a sweat like when I put on some headphones and listen to The Lamb or Animals or TAAB.
 
I don't know why.
 
The same thing with alot of modern fusion to great fusion like Mahavishnu or Brand X.
 
Sometimes too much complexity overshadows the soul of the music.

I could not agree more.  I would add that too much distortion on the guitars covers up the articulations of the player so the music dies.  Few have made it work, but the ones that did took the more classical approach to the endless sustain and used it more as a texture than trying to play a gazzillion notes which just turns to mud.  I saw Dream Theater this summer only because we went to see the Crimson guys.. and DT was the most boring thing I have ever seen.  My wife actually fell asleep during the show and she loves stuff like Crimson and Vander Graf. 

I don't think Metal has any place in Prog... I would much rather listen to early Sabbath or Judas Priest if I want Metal.

The Metal prog bands use Metal to cover up what they don't know how to do.. which is to articulate the music into something that hits the listener with something more emotionally mysterious.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote timothy leary Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2012 at 12:25
Walter reincarnated
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ytse_Jam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2012 at 12:29
^ So you say metal cannot be prog because DT bored you? I think this is a bit superficial... Or maybe you think that different genres cannot stay together, but.. isn't it what prog is about? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2012 at 14:10
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:


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I reckon the old prog bands of the 70s hit a great balance between
complexity and songwriting whereas bands like Dream Theater and
Porcupine Tree leave me cold.
 
I've
tried and tried and tried to get my hooks into those 2 bands but they
just don't get me in a sweat like when I put on some headphones and
listen to The Lamb or Animals or TAAB.
 
I don't know why.
 
The same thing with alot of modern fusion to great fusion like Mahavishnu or Brand X.
 
Sometimes too much complexity overshadows the soul of the music.I could not agree more.  I would add that too much distortion on the guitars covers up the articulations of the player so the music dies.  Few have made it work, but the ones that did took the more classical approach to the endless sustain and used it more as a texture than trying to play a gazzillion notes which just turns to mud.  I saw Dream Theater this summer only because we went to see the Crimson guys.. and DT was the most boring thing I have ever seen.  My wife actually fell asleep during the show and she loves stuff like Crimson and Vander Graf.  I don't think Metal has any place in Prog... I would much rather listen to early Sabbath or Judas Priest if I want Metal.The Metal prog bands use Metal to cover up what they don't know how to do.. which is to articulate the music into something that hits the listener with something more emotionally mysterious.



I cannot begin to tell you how I disagree with what you said here. I think you are way out of line to say that metal all together should be disbanded from the prog genre itself. It has no place to you? Wow. That is pretty cold man. DT are one of the more charming bands that prog has to offer in general. And to site that the metal aspect of their sound is just a way to cover up what they don't know. Listen, your gonna have to explain that one more thoroughly. Explain to me what they should know?? What technical aspect or fluidity is lacking? Aghhhhhh I am not mad but.....
Raving and drooling I leaned on his neck with a screeeeeeeamm! ;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2012 at 18:50
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

I

I don't think Metal has any place in Prog... 

Do you know that Fripp wanted to make a metal album with Red?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Surrealist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2012 at 19:45
For one... if you look at "Red" which is a great example... the guitars are very raw.  You can feel the playing.  I was working out back in the studio today and happened to put on the first Rush album.  I hadn't listened to it in years.  I also played in on vinyl and while I would call it a hard rock album.. you can hear the prog coming... and Alex's playing is so free and natural sounding. 

I was listening to Tarkus yesterday and again.. it is so raw and natural sounding compared to today's homogenized releases that everyone is doing on ProTools. 

I am sure that if you put the guitar tracks, bass tracks.. drum tracks into any digital editing program.. those tracks would not look good.. they would look awful and today's engineers would be burning the midnight oil fixing all the problems...

Metal works when it breathes and feels like humans playing, it really needs that.  This over produced digital metal that everyone is buying into is what killed progressive rock in the first place.  Fripp never lost sight of tone.  Lifeson went back to a more raw sound. 

The prog guys of the 70's had the listener's attention because they could play so well, so freely and naturally, and it was believable.  They all had their own sound also. Howe with his trebley tone, Hackett with the compressed sustain and all the acoustic playing, Fripp with his unique sound, and all the rock greats had their own sound.. Page, Hendrix, Beck, Santana, Clapton, Schenker, Roth even Van Halen.  The Dream theater guitar sound is the overdone heavy distortion sound that sounds like you plugged into a rack at "Guitar Center".  So unoriginal.. and so unprogressive. 


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