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Blacksword 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
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Points: 16130
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 Posted: October 30 2012 at 11:00 |
 smartpatrol wrote:
I think it's because they're either, frankly, not as good as most classic Prog bands, or they're just underrated
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I love them, but I think their problem was they lacked the 'rock' element in sufficient measure to appeal more broadly. If you look at the musicians as individuals they were all very good, especially Annie Haslam and John Tout, but there just wasn't enough rock going on for a rock audience, it was too high brow and classical orientated for a pop audience, and probably too complex and proggy for an easy listening audience and for day time radio air play.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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menawati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 26 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 293
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Posted: October 30 2012 at 11:39 |
Maybe it was a lack of consistency too ? I only have their three classics which are brilliant but I've heard that the rest of their discog is pretty ordinary. I could be wrong though.
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They flutter behind you your possible pasts,
Some bright-eyed and crazy, some frightened and lost.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16163
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Posted: October 30 2012 at 14:58 |
menawati wrote:
Maybe it was a lack of consistency too ?I only have their three classics which are brilliant but I've heard that the rest of their discog is pretty ordinary. I could be wrong though. |
When they came up, at least as is the case in Santa Barbara, because I know that Guy and some KTYD folks played this group a lot, in general, the issue was that the FM music bands started becoming more commercial and into the hit, or big seller format. By the time it got to '75 or '78, for example, you would be obligated to hear The Who, Led Z, Pink Floyd, Elton John, late Beatles, later Rolling Stones and Aerosmith, and one or two more "Blue Dots" ... and that took away some of the more experimental amount of music to be heard. When Renaissance came to SB, it was already anti-climatic, and they did a fabulous show, and half the people walked out, because they came to see Tim Weisberg that fell sick, and could not come. The music, at that point, was already about the fame and not the music or the art itself, and the respect for the different things, was already going away and missing. All in all, as much as I liked Renaissance, it was not one of my top groups, but it was one that was very nice and very enjoyable ... but it was quite clear that the audience was stuck on the top ten mentality already ... without realizing it ... which makes the fact that Space Pirate Radio lasting almost 25 years is totally insane ... and unreal! ... but it DID! And why? ... because it didn't give a cahoot about top ten or anything else. And one of its mottos? ... none of the hits, none of the time! ... you would figure to appreciate that by now in some way!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: October 30 2012 at 20:20 |
menawati wrote:
Maybe it was a lack of consistency too ?I only have their three classics which are brilliant but I've heard that the rest of their discog is pretty ordinary. I could be wrong though. |
Personally, I don't see the point about this huge gap between AAB/Cards/Scheherazade and Novella and SFAS after these. Rather, I think the latter represent their best phase. People just got bored of waiting for them to change their style, I guess. But they were/are not that kind of band. They only wanted to make music in that classical-folk style over and over, would bet anything even the new album after all these years will follow that template.
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
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Joined: June 09 2004
Location: Front Range
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Points: 7028
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Posted: October 30 2012 at 21:37 |
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Renaissance were never commercial until Camera Camera........They sold out to compete in the 80,s but their brand of sound was never compromised in the 70's. Then it was hip to be ethereal and folky with that awesome touch of rock. Maybe in about 50 years they will be truly appreciated for their lack of compromise during their vintage period. Rave on....
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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smartpatrol
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 15 2012
Location: My Bedroom
Status: Offline
Points: 14169
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Posted: October 30 2012 at 21:51 |
Blacksword wrote:
smartpatrol wrote:
I think it's because they're either, frankly, not as good as most classic Prog bands, or they're just underrated
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I love them, but I think their problem was they lacked the 'rock' element in sufficient measure to appeal more broadly.
If you look at the musicians as individuals they were all very good, especially Annie Haslam and John Tout, but there just wasn't enough rock going on for a rock audience, it was too high brow and classical orientated for a pop audience, and probably too complex and proggy for an easy listening audience and for day time radio air play. |
That's probably it
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prog4evr
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 22 2005
Location: Wuhan, China
Status: Offline
Points: 1455
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Posted: October 31 2012 at 00:47 |
infandous wrote:
I quite like most of what the did in the 70's. I saw them perform at Neafest this past summer and they were fantastic. That Annie is still able to sing like she did back in the 70's (well, very nearly, anyway......much like Jon Anderson) is very impressive...
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Ditto, ditto. That reminds me of the cover vocals Annie Haslam did on a remake of "Turn of the Century" a decade or so ago. She sounded great on that old Yes song. So, yes, I agree - she has still "got it" in the vocals department...
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ClemofNazareth
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk Researcher
Joined: August 17 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4659
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Posted: October 31 2012 at 12:40 |
kenethlevine wrote:
I know I am in the minority, but a growing one (right ClemofNazareth and Rogerthat?) who thinks that Renaissance' peak was 1978, "A Song for All Seasons". That was a bit late for a prog act from the early 70s to peak. Yes we are a minority, but a larger minority (in percentage anyway) than those who think Genesis, ELP, or Yes peaked in 1978. |
Yes, I definitely think 'A Song for all Seasons' was their magnum opus, although I really like their first album (but for different reasons, and which was of course had a completely different lineup). I think they had a number of issues in breaking out when they were at their peak. The big market then was the U.S., and while they did have success in New England they didn't really do the kind of heavy nationwide touring that bands like Yes, ELP and others did which limited their exposure in a pre-WWW, pre-MTV era. Also, they ran a little late to catch on with the coattails of the big British prog mastodons of the 70s. Yes, ELP, Jethro Tull and others were already somewhat in decline in the U.S. (and elsewhere) by the mid-70s, while 'Novella' and 'A Song for all Seasons' (both of which did quite well in the U.S.) didn't release until well into the disco era. Pink Floyd was an entirely different creature because of their psych/space leanings and therefore inherently larger audience. Finally, as a couple people have mentioned, Renaissance didn't have many singles, which were critical to market success back in the 70s. They only released a handful of 45s outside the UK and until 'Northern Lights' in late 1978 there weren't any that were considered 'radio-friendly'. By the time they tried to make more commercial music disco and punk had drowned out nearly all prog-leaning music, not just theirs. Still, this was a great band and despite my hammering a few of their later albums in reviews I think they qualify as an A-list 70s prog band. Too bad they didn't get more of the appreciation they deserved.
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"Peace is the only battle worth waging."
Albert Camus
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infandous
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 23 2006
Location: United States
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Points: 2446
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Posted: October 31 2012 at 12:50 |
rogerthat wrote:
menawati wrote:
Maybe it was a lack of consistency too ?I only have their three classics which are brilliant but I've heard that the rest of their discog is pretty ordinary. I could be wrong though. |
Personally, I don't see the point about this huge gap between AAB/Cards/Scheherazade and Novella and SFAS after these. Rather, I think the latter represent their best phase. People just got bored of waiting for them to change their style, I guess. But they were/are not that kind of band. They only wanted to make music in that classical-folk style over and over, would bet anything even the new album after all these years will follow that template. |
Novella is my favorite album of theirs, so I agree with you here. I happen to love their style, so discovering them in the early 2000's, I was quite happy that those 5 albums were all so similar in style. I suspect though, that audiences of the 70's were not as keen on the style, probably due to the lack of a "rock" element. Also, as mentioned, they were somewhat latecomers to the prog rock scene, or at least didn't hit their peak until later (for me Novella was the peak, with SFAS being a very slight step down from that but still well within the quality of the previous 4 albums).
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: October 31 2012 at 20:31 |
ClemofNazareth wrote:
Finally, as a couple people have mentioned, Renaissance didn't have many singles, which were critical to market success back in the 70s. They only released a handful of 45s outside the UK and until 'Northern Lights' in late 1978 there weren't any that were considered 'radio-friendly'. By the time they tried to make more commercial music disco and punk had drowned out nearly all prog-leaning music, not just theirs.
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I have heard that they actually resisted singles for a bit but the label would have none of it by Northern Lights. Don't know whether there's any truth in it. Have also heard that they meant to release Carpet of the Sun as a single but it either didn't happen at all or only pretty late in the day. Ironically, once they struck gold with Northern Lights, they wanted the next hit badly...perhaps too much so. Still, had Azure D'Or not been a disaster sales-wise, they may just have consolidated the success of SFAS and probably be better remembered today.
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kenethlevine
Special Collaborator
Prog-Folk Team
Joined: December 06 2006
Location: New England
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Points: 8854
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Posted: October 31 2012 at 21:30 |
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Yeah Azure D'Or was such a disappointment to me...it seemed so synthetic and spiritless other than a few tracks.Honestly, I would rather hear "Time Line". At least it has some verve
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cstack3
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Posted: October 31 2012 at 22:30 |
I always thought they were hampered by the lack of an outstanding lead guitarist in their lineup....they never had a guitarist who played at the level of Hackett, Howe or Fripp, or even close.
Also, John Camp was a very good bassist, but not up to par with his peers of the era (Squire, Wetton, Lake etc.).
They were very strong on keys, with John Hawken and John Tout on board.
Given that, I'm quite fond of some of their material, particularly "Mother Russia." Annie Haslam has a wonderful voice, and her version of "Turn of the Century" with Steve Howe is sublime!
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Warthur
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 06 2008
Location: London, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 617
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Posted: November 01 2012 at 07:02 |
Aussie-Byrd-Brother wrote:
At least in progressive circles, the band is so highly looked on, and it's kind of all but guaranteed no matter how ridiculous the comparison, most female fronted prog bands are compared to Renaissance and Annie Haslam!  |
Yeah, this is a real pet peeve of mine. It's fair enough if the vocalist in question does actually sound a bit like Annie, but sometimes people can really stretch it, to the point where you wonder whether they're only making the comparison because they aren't aware of any other women in rock music.
It's like how people constantly mention Jethro Tull if a flute is involved in an album, regardless of how it's used, with an extra dash of mild sexism on the side.
As for Renaissance themselves... the difficulty I've always had with them is that a lack of consistency. Once they hit on their classic sound on Ashes are Burning it seems like they got in a bit of a rut.
Edited by Warthur - November 01 2012 at 07:04
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kenethlevine
Special Collaborator
Prog-Folk Team
Joined: December 06 2006
Location: New England
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Posted: November 01 2012 at 08:53 |
Warthur wrote:
Aussie-Byrd-Brother wrote:
At least in progressive circles, the band is so highly looked on, and it's kind of all but guaranteed no matter how ridiculous the comparison, most female fronted prog bands are compared to Renaissance and Annie Haslam! |
Yeah, this is a real pet peeve of mine. It's fair enough if the vocalist in question does actually sound a bit like Annie, but sometimes people can really stretch it, to the point where you wonder whether they're only making the comparison because they aren't aware of any other women in rock music.
It's like how people constantly mention Jethro Tull if a flute is involved in an album, regardless of how it's used, with an extra dash of mild sexism on the side.
As for Renaissance themselves... the difficulty I've always had with them is that a lack of consistency. Once they hit on their classic sound on Ashes are Burning it seems like they got in a bit of a rut.
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I really don't see how ASFAS could be seen as a rut. It's far more energetic than anything they did before while still possessing 2 epics and excellent short songs of the sort they had rarely done before. It's like they were damned if they changed and damned if they didn't. I do think Novella was marking time a bit, but also that it has some of their loveliest songs, and also their most chilling in "Midas Man". But I also thought "Camera Camera" was very good, even though I would not go to bat defending it here as much as ASFAS
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: November 01 2012 at 09:21 |
kenethlevine wrote:
Yeah Azure D'Or was such a disappointment to me...it seemed so synthetic and spiritless other than a few tracks.Honestly, I would rather hear "Time Line". At least it has some verve |
Sorry but I don't think Annie fared too well on Timeline and that takes away a lot from an already middling album. Don't know what was the issue at that time, but I really can't see why they couldn't have recorded another take of say Chagrin Boulevard or Distant Horizons. At least AZD had a handful of tracks that were not too bad - Winter Tree, Forever Changing, Kalynda - though it was on the whole quite boring.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: November 01 2012 at 09:28 |
kenethlevine wrote:
I do think Novella was marking time a bit, but also that it has some of their loveliest songs, and also their most chilling in "Midas Man". But I also thought "Camera Camera" was very good, even though I would not go to bat defending it here as much as ASFAS |
Midas Man could have been a very good single. Also Touching Once is amazing.
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Aussie-Byrd-Brother
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Joined: October 12 2011
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Posted: November 01 2012 at 09:40 |
Looking at `Azure D'or' right now, there's some really good tracks like `Golden Key', several decent songs, and a whole lot of Genesis-like tricks going on in the playing and the production. But holy hell Camp's wretched `Only Angels Have Wings' is absolute dross of the highest order! Ditch that and you've got a mostly servicable album!
Edited by Aussie-Byrd-Brother - November 01 2012 at 09:41
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TODDLER
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Posted: November 01 2012 at 10:25 |
criticdrummer94 wrote:
I've become a huge fan of this band recently and I'm wondering why this band was never as successful as Yes, Genesis or Pink Floyd? |
I can render some information about Renaissance based on my experience. On the east coast they received great airplay! WMMR And WYSP played the band's music and included it on daily ...week to week programming. Renaissamce could be seen on late night talk shows that featured entertainment variety. They were more successful in Philadelphia and N.Y. than Gentle Giant as their popularity scaled above many artists who released their first album in 1972 ...and it would appear to mostly everyone that they were skyrocketing beyond even that particular level of appreciation. Most people on the east coast discovered the band upon the release of Ashes are Burning. Pink Floyd and Genesis had already been cemented in to the public eye years before Renaissance entered the music scene of the 70's. and so it is predictable and common for Floyd and Genesis to be remembered.
The band released several follow ups to Ashes are Burning and every one of those albums attracted the attention of "Art Rock" fans on the east coast. Renaissance were entertaining to the life style on college campus. About 6 months after the release of Novella people began to lose interest in the band. The follow up album Azure produced sounds and styles heard on Wind and Wuthering. The keyboard playing on that album was a structured style in the vain of Tony Banks circa "78. I liked the album, but to be honest..few around me did. Renaissance were pegged by a majority of fans on the east coast to have released 4 brilliant albums including Carnegie Hall the live recording with an orchestra.
The band eventually took a new direction becoming more acoustic oriented. In '81 I was touring theatres and many musicians noticed Renaissance had lowered their expectations by touring the same venues as us. We were trying to rise above this theatre circuit and Rennaissance had obviously fallen to our level. It didn't leave much room for enthusiasm or hope. I sometimes had a drink with friends and it would come up in conversation. We would make fun of ourselves and ask why Renaissance were playing the same circuit with losers like us? We were devoted Rennaissance fans in our early 20's and couldn't fathom this screwball situation which was personally disturbing and insulting to us. We felt anger toward the young hipster dwistle type record executives and placed the blame for lack of interest in Renaissance upon them. We were confused because the band also had a "Top 40's" crowd following them around. What exactly did they need to sustain their popularity?
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
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Posted: November 01 2012 at 10:41 |
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^^^ So the problem was indeed, as ClemofNazareth said, that they couldn't really build a fanbase outside the American Northeast. Which of course is a big difference when compared to Genesis, Yes or PF. You can catch Owner of a Lonely Heart on VH1 but I have never seen Northern Lights played on these music channels. A band like Gentle Giant gets a kind of cult following on prog-dedicated communities like PA but otherwise they have more or less disappeared too. Again a band that broke up at the cusp of the 80s. ELP had the biggest live billing of these bands and they are relatively obscure now compared to PF.
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kenethlevine
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Prog-Folk Team
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Posted: November 01 2012 at 12:19 |
rogerthat wrote:
kenethlevine wrote:
I do think Novella was marking time a bit, but also that it has some of their loveliest songs, and also their most chilling in "Midas Man". But I also thought "Camera Camera" was very good, even though I would not go to bat defending it here as much as ASFAS |
Midas Man could have been a very good single. Also Touching Once is amazing. |
I don't see Midas Man as a single. It was too slow and cerebral, and with no hooks. It's a plodding and threatening piece that hits one intellectually first, but on a visceral level. Not the stuff of top 40 at all IMO
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Why has Renaissance gone obscure?