Why classic prog faded? |
Post Reply | Page <1 1314151617 26> |
Author | |||
rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: November 23 2012 at 22:10 | ||
I have heard all of Tim Buckley's albums and he is a great singer. You have completely missed my point. Perhaps if you tried to sing Neon Knights or mostly any other Dio song from his Sabbath or solo albums, you'd get it. And please don't quote polls here. They prove nothing, I am talking about something very objective related to timbre which can be observed. Buckley does not possess the sheer strength of Dio in upper register notes. Which does not mean he cannot sing in the upper register or that he cannot sing in a metal band. I didn't say any of those things, I made a very specific point, so don't apply it to a general statement. You need a hell of lot of chest resonance to sing the C5 over thundering metal guitar and drums with as much power as Dio. I have never heard that in any Buckley and certainly not in the clip you posted. He's hitting it purely off the head there and frequently slipping into falsetto.
|
|||
rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: November 23 2012 at 23:18 | ||
Like Surrealist, I don't like that DT instrumedley either. Honestly, one couldn't do much worse as far as choosing a track to showcase DT goes. It is the exact facet of their approach that I dislike, this desire in showboat in ways that get very cringeworthy. "So much for less is more, huh"...that sums it up. I'd be interested to know what however does Surrealist make of ELP, then, because Emerson had a similar propensity to show off. I personally think this kind of self indulgence gives prog a very bad rep. Education and sophistication should also be accompanied by a bit of discipline.
|
|||
timothy leary
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 29 2005 Location: Lilliwaup, Wa. Status: Offline Points: 5319 |
Posted: November 23 2012 at 23:40 | ||
You would think I would know not to argue about music, total waste of time. Thanks for reminding me.
|
|||
rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: November 23 2012 at 23:54 | ||
Yeah....I love this. You attribute statements I did not make to me and then claim that arguing over music is a waste of time. Thanks much. I guess it is a waste of time arguing or discussing anything if you don't pay attention to what the other person has said.
|
|||
timothy leary
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 29 2005 Location: Lilliwaup, Wa. Status: Offline Points: 5319 |
Posted: November 24 2012 at 00:02 | ||
Now you know what i pay attention to.... thanks for reminding me........no more time to waste.
|
|||
tamijo
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 06 2009 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 4287 |
Posted: November 24 2012 at 01:25 | ||
That not true, what they did was taking elements of existing styles, diffrent folk traditions, classic and jazz, fuze them together with rock music, spoken words, electric/electronic instruments and recording tech. ect.
All the elements was existing before prog.
Edited by tamijo - November 24 2012 at 01:32 |
|||
Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
|
|||
Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: November 24 2012 at 02:36 | ||
|
|||
What?
|
|||
rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: November 24 2012 at 02:59 | ||
lol
|
|||
Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: November 24 2012 at 03:21 | ||
And then Hackett and Howe did GTR But seriously, yeah, those heavy rock guitarists were really great, it's a shame what they were doing became passé to the point where any solo was seen as showboating and deeply frowned upon by the rock intelligentsia and other narrowminded elitists. Thankfully prog guitarists have tended to ignore those people, just as those people ignore Prog.
You keep repeating this claim like it is the gospel truth.
Please provide proof of this.
More than that.
Please proivide proof that modern Progressive Rock guitarists do this.
Every guitarist has their favourite effects peddles and their favourite head and speaker combination that they guard with religious furvour second only to the reverence they hold for their favourite guitar. The merest suggestion that they would abandon all that and hand over control of their effects to a monkey on a mixing desk is laughable.
I have offered you the opportunity to put together some questions that we can send to Karl Groom about modern recording practices. He is a guitarist of some worth and aclaim, so you could also put together some questions about how he records his own guitar tracks in his own studio if you like.
Or you can keep on banging on making unsubstantiated claims.
All modern musicians know this already, all guitarist learn their craft on stage, not in the studio. The only person who needs to get anything straight is you. Edited by Dean - November 24 2012 at 03:23 |
|||
What?
|
|||
Neelus
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 19 2012 Status: Offline Points: 346 |
Posted: November 24 2012 at 03:27 | ||
I am not going to claim to be the biggest DT fan around here. I am just glad the argument that modern players don't know their instruments is slowly evaporating, cause its nonsense. Like Dark Shade, I dont think DT had any negative influence on classic prog in the 70s, they were too young back then . I am going to argue however, that if DT had any probable influence on prog as a whole, it was positive. They were involved in popularizing a whole new progressive subgenre. Yeah, its not your cup of tea, granted, but they caused alot of young folk in the 90s to pick up guitars and have an interest in playing something else than Nirvana, and they also turned newer generations onto classic bands like Rush. These newer generations of prog is keeping the style alive, even if some of them are copying the old styles too much (like the Flower Kings get rapped for). I will still go see their live shows. The Watch playing Foxtrot was one of the most enjoyable shows I have ever seen. Keep it alive! Edited by Neelus - November 24 2012 at 09:11 |
|||
HarbouringTheSoul
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 21 2010 Status: Offline Points: 1199 |
Posted: November 24 2012 at 10:18 | ||
Honestly, I prefer stuff like that "Instrumedley" to most of the actual songs Dream Theater write. Yes, it's very much playing for its own sake, but it's entertaining and well-played, so why would I mind?
|
|||
HackettFan
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 20 2012 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 7946 |
Posted: November 24 2012 at 12:18 | ||
GTR is an easy target, I'm well aware. True enough, I didn't like it either (except for the very fleeting Hackett To Bits). But for the benefit of anyone who reads the the post without knowing, Steve Hackett has made quite a few very excellent and very very progressive albums since GTR. Also, to rehash a point I've made before about the stifling effect of the music industry, I offer a quote from Steve Hackett about the formation of GTR; "It evolved out of the frustration of doing albums which weren't getting a look in the American market place. I had done these things, which were a labour of love, but in America I got the usual response of; 'We'll take it if Phil Collins is on it'. I found that more and more people were interested in what I was doing only by association. I found the idea of doing GTR came out of the mutual frustration of two guitarists who felt the same way..." (Sketches of Hackett, p.101) Steve Hackett is making just the sort of artistic albums he wants to nowadays because of his strong control over the business end of production and distribution, just as Zappa did way earlier during the hard times when Prog first faded. |
|||
Argonaught
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 04 2012 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 1413 |
Posted: November 24 2012 at 12:31 | ||
Just don't give them any ideas, mister Edited by Argonaught - November 24 2012 at 12:32 |
|||
Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: November 24 2012 at 12:33 | ||
I actually like it and have done since 1986 - I'd like it more if it really was a GuiTaR album and not quite so AOR. I mentioned it because of its remarkable lack of guitar heroics.
Asia followed Hackett at Weyfest this year, (there are backstage photos of the two Steves together on Hackett's website), I would have loved it if they'd got together for one more blast of When the Heart Rules the Mind during one of the two sets. Edited by Dean - November 24 2012 at 12:36 |
|||
What?
|
|||
HackettFan
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 20 2012 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 7946 |
Posted: November 24 2012 at 13:29 | ||
Ah, I see. Sorry for mis-interpreting. I would have liked it better too if it was more of a guitar album. Hackett used the money he got from the album to put out Momentum, a classical guitar album that I think is absolutely precious, so I'm at peace with it one way or the other. |
|||
Surrealist
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 12 2012 Location: Squonk Status: Offline Points: 232 |
Posted: November 26 2012 at 11:45 | ||
Hackett came to his senses quickly... while others didn't. That is why he has still been a relevant progressive artist for so many years while others haven't. I think Hackett's best work has been post Genesis. Don't think I can say that about any other prog artists post solo career.
|
|||
timothy leary
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 29 2005 Location: Lilliwaup, Wa. Status: Offline Points: 5319 |
Posted: November 26 2012 at 12:13 | ||
What about.....Robert Wyatt, Pekka Pohjola, Steve Hillage?
|
|||
moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16324 |
Posted: November 26 2012 at 12:49 | ||
Dean .... I think I have to correct this line ... most guitarists learned their craft at home ... and later went on stage with it ... only TODAY, with the DAW's and other software, is the stage and studio wayyyyyy less important than it was in the earlier days for learning. In the earlyearlyearly Tom Dowd days, the music was LIVE in the studio and recorded directly onto the disk ... you gotta see that DVD! That would be late 40's and early 50's (the most valuable part of his DVD!)
Goodness ... 40 years ago we had a tape deck to listen to our stuff (spendy, too!) ... 30 years ago ... a cassette player was great for rehearsal ... and by the time the computer age went "live" in the 90's, it was the beginning of the end of the big name studio that charged too much that kept so much music out of people's hands.
But you know what? ... you can't stop art, and the folks that live for it ... so getting rid of the "middle person" is probably the best thing that has ever happened to music, and is likely to change the definition of music forever! We won't see more of its results for another 10 to 20 years, I would imagine.
"Classic" dies ... because that word is stinking, and everyone is comparing it to radio stations playing "classic rock" ... which, for the sake of a discussion here, the music we love NEVER was "classic" ... but TIME ... has made it the classic that we now call it SO! It was just something that we liked, loved and such THEN ... and as it turns out ... it was way better than most music ... or it would be ignored by most and never remembered.
|
|||
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
|||
progbethyname
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 30 2012 Location: HiFi Headmania Status: Offline Points: 7762 |
Posted: November 26 2012 at 13:24 | ||
I agree with you here. I mean the guitar factor in GENesis all together was starting to take a major back seat in their overall sound starting with TRICK OF THE TAIL in 1976. Something was already starting to happen to Genesis where Keyboards and drums were the dominating instruments all together. There is a huge difference between how prevalent hackett's guitar is between SELLING ENGLAND and WIND AND WURTHERING (his last with band). I majorly notice a difference. |
|||
Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
|
|||
Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: November 26 2012 at 13:28 | ||
Nothing you say is incorrect or inaccurate Pedro, but it is only a small section of the bigger picture. A musician still needs to learn how to play his instrument, and that they still do in their homes night after night until they have the confidence and ability to take that into the greater world, and there they hone their craft in their homes, garages, church halls, schools and hired rehearsal rooms before stepping onto the public stage to perform for an audience. Because there are still thousands and thousands of musicians and bands still performing live in pubs, clubs and venues in every country in the world. Sure they will now use a DAW to record their demos rather than onto cassette or reel-to-reel tape, but those demos are now no longer used to convince a record exec to sign them, they are now of sufficient quality to be sold directly to the public on band websites, CDBaby, Bandcamp and Soundcloud. Of course they aren't the same quality of what could be achieved in a "proper" studio, but they are yards better than anything recorded in the good old/bad old days onto cassette tape.
Pandora's box has been opened and no one is inclined to close the lid because it did not release all the evils of the world, but all its toys. And from those toys artists can pick and chose to their hearts content - there are still bands out there who record live in the studio just as they did in the 40s and 50s, (admittedly Jam bands like Chris Poland's OHM are the main exponents of this method, but others such as Neurosis also record live to some extent), there are still bands out there who prefer analogue over digital, and there are those who have never performed live and have no intention of ever doing so.
|
|||
What?
|
|||
Post Reply | Page <1 1314151617 26> |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |