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The best ones have a immediate impact

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HarbouringTheSoul View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HarbouringTheSoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2012 at 17:50
Originally posted by QuestionableScum QuestionableScum wrote:

I enjoy Stravinsky and Bartok myself, but my point was to say that because their music is still enjoyed by others nearly 100 years after it was produced this shows that their music is not forgettable.

And why would it be? In accordance to rdtprog's "theory", much of their music has made an immediate impact on me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote QuestionableScum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2012 at 17:57
Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul HarbouringTheSoul wrote:


Originally posted by QuestionableScum QuestionableScum wrote:

I enjoy Stravinsky and Bartok myself, but my point was to say that because their music is still enjoyed by others nearly 100 years after it was produced this shows that their music is not forgettable.
And why would it be? In accordance to rdtprog's "theory", much of their music has made an immediate impact on me.


It took me several listens to truly enjoy Bartok and Stravinsky, and I know it has taken several listens for other people. So while it may have had an immediate impact on you, I think for many it was not something that immediately connected with them.

Therefore, it seems that just because something does not have an immediate impact it does not mean that it is forgettable. Also, the OP's theory made some comments about the melodic character of music, and as much as I love Stravinsky and Bartok, their music is not particularly melodic. Dissonance usually dominates over consonance in terms of harmony.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wilmon91 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2012 at 18:02
It's interesting to talk about direct impact versus gradual impact in music. From my experience I can't say that music having a direct impact is generally superior to music with a slower impact. Both kinds are good, and equally valuable as qualitites. The word catchy can be unfair. What I don't like is too much repetition. Pop music with a repeated short melody can be deisgned just to force you to remember it. When the catchiness depends on repepetition the melody doesn't even have to be good, it just has to be repeated enough times. It's an immediate, annoying impact.
 
But I have experienced both kinds of impact at the same time. When I heard Steve Hackett's Spectral Mornings, I really liked it at first listen. Very easy to like. It felt like an easygoing album, sounded nice, and put me in a good mood. But I didn't suspect the depth it had. With more listens it grew into becoming something more than just enjoyable and fun. And it has a lot of sophisticated stuff in it. Once I sat in front of the piano trying to play The Ballad of the Decomposing Man. I could only figure out the first chord, then I gave up. Spectral Mornings grew into something magical. But "Every Day", a hackett classic, is pretty easygoing with memorable melodies, but it doesn't feel like a radio song being confined to a format, it has it's own life with an original form, and free guitar soloing at the ending. Most important is that each song has it's own life and freedom in expression. I like a mixture of simple direct elements and sophisticated, advanced elements, because I like the idea of pop with concentrated meliodies and grooves , but also advanced classical related stuff which allows for the full range in creativity.


Edited by wilmon91 - November 26 2012 at 18:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pitfall Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2012 at 18:20
I can only say that the music which has stayed with me the longest, is music which took quite a few listens for me to appreciate. I'm sure that this is why very few of them are hit singles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Polymorphia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2012 at 18:25
The tracks that have immediate impact don't always impact people because of their melody or even chord progressions. Sometimes it can impact through sonic richness, form, or context within an album.

Many rewarding tracks or albums can be liked on second, third, or fourth listens. As has been said by many here, Tales from Topographic Oceans. I might add, too: Relayer, Kid A, King of Limbs, Thick as a Brick and countless others that may have escaped me on first listen. Not to mention the fact that Genesis has never impacted me aesthetically (yet), and a couple people (okay, lots of people) happen to like them here. Wink

You may like a song that impacts you instantly, and that's fine. I do too; however, if you say that instantly impacting music is necessarily better than gradually impacting music, or vice versa, we have a problem. By saying so, you have necessarily prescribed one mode of listening/appreciating over another (instant gratification in music is better than gradual gratification in music), which is very limiting to aesthetic taste and can cause one to miss out on a lot of masterpieces.

Not to mention the fact that listeners mature and different music will impact them at different times.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2012 at 18:32
Originally posted by rdtprog rdtprog wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

^ that.
 
Exhibit A:

This is a good example of a cd that i have mixed feelings about it, precisely, because the melody has been lost in the way the band have linked all the passages of the songs together, like was missing a coherence in all the great ideas put in it.
I think that is a good reason why it is a "grower" - because it isn't instantly likable with a contiguous flow of melodies; it takes time to appreciate the skill that Wakeman in particular used on that album in connecting those disparate melodies. Conversly I don't like Close To The Edge as much because of how the three different "songs" on the title track are linked together - the cohession is there but only on a superfical level for me - I still hear them as three seperate songs followed by a medley of them as a coda that arrives like an afterthought and that isn't particularily satisfying (for me). Relayer achieves this far more coherently, but that album had an immediate impact on me so does not qualify as "Exhibit A" in this case.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2012 at 18:46
This thread is so incredibly subjective. I can't say if a piece of music hits me hard the first listen, that it is all together definitively better!? No way man! Same goes vise versa. That includes any genre as well. If we wantbyo get into crazy semantics like categorizing songs that are better based on their genre cause it grows on ya quicker does that mean its better? No no no I think not, but is their a musical skill level difference? I would think so.

Let's bring out a fun scenario shall we. TEARS FOR FEARS. Ok they are pop/electronic rock group and we will compare to YES. Let's take a song from each band. For TFF-- Shout, For YES--Siberia

which is the song that is most likely gonna grow on ya first to call it 'best' in this regard???
I DON'T KNOW CAUSE IM NOT YOU!!! This thread is way too subjective, but quite humorous   Lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2012 at 18:47
I neither write off music that doesn't have an immediate impact nor do I conclude that music that does is just shallow and fluff.   Both positions are extreme and not very helpful to a person who wants to enjoy more music. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dayvenkirq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2012 at 19:22
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

... it takes time to appreciate the skill that Wakeman in particular used on that album in connecting those disparate melodies.
Wakeman? Wasn't the album a work of Anderson and Howe? "Rick, please, I want you to nail those keyboard parts."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thellama73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2012 at 19:27
Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

This thread is so incredibly subjective. I can't say if a piece of music hits me hard the first listen, that it is all together definitively better!? No way man! Same goes vise versa. That includes any genre as well. If we wantbyo get into crazy semantics like categorizing songs that are better based on their genre cause it grows on ya quicker does that mean its better? No no no I think not, but is their a musical skill level difference? I would think so.

Let's bring out a fun scenario shall we. TEARS FOR FEARS. Ok they are pop/electronic rock group and we will compare to YES. Let's take a song from each band. For TFF-- Shout, For YES--Siberia

which is the song that is most likely gonna grow on ya first to call it 'best' in this regard???
I DON'T KNOW CAUSE IM NOT YOU!!! This thread is way too subjective, but quite humorous   Lol


It's a music forum. Every thread is subjective. If you want objective threads, go to a science forum or something. I feel like I'm going to scream having to listen to you idiots.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote menawati Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2012 at 19:52
Varies a lot. Some things that hit me first time are still my favourites and other things I didn't like on a first few listens have grown to be favourites.
They flutter behind you your possible pasts,
Some bright-eyed and crazy, some frightened and lost.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2012 at 19:58
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

... it takes time to appreciate the skill that Wakeman in particular used on that album in connecting those disparate melodies.
Wakeman? Wasn't the album a work of Anderson and Howe? "Rick, please, I want you to nail those keyboard parts."
Anderson and Howe produced the themes, melodies, concept and ideas. Excluded from that creative process Wakeman was left to connect the dots and provide the glue that holds it all together, which I suspect is why long sweeping swathes of synth are prevalent throughout creating atmosphere and more importantly, an ebb and flow of music - there are a couple of very good solos from him on the album, but that wasn't his role (and that's ultimately why he left). It's not his best work as a solo performer within a band, but it is some of his best work as a band member. Here (IMO) Rick Wakeman is forced to do what Rick Wright did so effortlessly - blend in.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thellama73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2012 at 20:03
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

... it takes time to appreciate the skill that Wakeman in particular used on that album in connecting those disparate melodies.
Wakeman? Wasn't the album a work of Anderson and Howe? "Rick, please, I want you to nail those keyboard parts."
Anderson and Howe produced the themes, melodies, concept and ideas. Excluded from that creative process Wakeman was left to connect the dots and provide the glue that holds it all together, which I suspect is why long sweeping swathes of synth are prevalent throughout creating atmosphere and more importantly, an ebb and flow of music - there are a couple of very good solos from him on the album, but that wasn't his role (and that's ultimately why he left). It's not his best work as a solo performer within a band, but it is some of his best work as a band member. Here (IMO) Rick Wakeman is forced to do what Rick Wright did so effortlessly - blend in.


This is well said. I find that Tales has a cohesiveness between the movements that is lacking in most other prog epics, and a large share of that credit does indeed go to Wakeman. It's sort of like the difference between A Beethoven symphony (the fifth, for example, in which all the movement's are built on the rhythm short-short-short-long) and a Mozart symphony (in which the movements are entirely unrelated.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2012 at 20:40
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:


Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

This thread is so incredibly subjective. I can't say if a piece of music hits me hard the first listen, that it is all together definitively better!? No way man! Same goes vise versa. That includes any genre as well. If we wantbyo get into crazy semantics like categorizing songs that are better based on their genre cause it grows on ya quicker does that mean its better? No no no I think not, but is their a musical skill level difference? I would think so.

Let's bring out a fun scenario shall we. TEARS FOR FEARS. Ok they are pop/electronic rock group and we will compare to YES. Let's take a song from each band. For TFF-- Shout, For YES--Siberia

which is the song that is most likely gonna grow on ya first to call it 'best' in this regard???
I DON'T KNOW CAUSE IM NOT YOU!!! This thread is way too subjective, but quite humorous   Lol
It's a music forum. Every thread is subjective. If you want objective threads, go to a science forum or something. I feel like I'm going to scream having to listen to you idiots.


Think your right. I should lighten up a bit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 26 2012 at 21:34
Basically "no" but a concession to "yes".
 
I think we proggers have our own perception of what we can find as "instantly melodical", which can vary across quite a broad range compared to people who have not been exposed to prog or jazz or classical music.
Many stuff other people might find unlisteneable will probably catch our attention on first listen, but what this stuff is depends a lot on what kind of music we are fond of, symphonic, math, RIO, fusion, post-rock or whatever.
 
So it's a difficult question. I would say a conditional "well yes, melody plays an important part" but we must acknowledge that the very word "melodical" is subjective, in particular for us proggers.
 
Personally I would also add to "melody" "harmony", frequently it's not the monophonic melody that catches my attention but the polyphonic harmonies, the relationships between melody and backing notes.
 
Much of the music I love did not get me on a first listen but only after repeated and carefull listenings, but I reckon that some melodies / harmonies got me from the first listen and have remained favourites.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeqexes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2012 at 01:57
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

I don't agree with you. I think the best songs are often the ones that require a little time to fully digest and appreciate. If your theory were true, then we would be forced to conclude that highly accessible pop/dance music is really good, which of course it isn't.

I agree, although I do think that some accessible pop is quite good.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tamijo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2012 at 03:51
Originally posted by rdtprog rdtprog wrote:

I am curious if some agree with me, when i say that the best songs we can hear on a progressive rock cd are the one that have a immediate impact on you. I mean when you can clearly feel the sense of the melody and you are immediately affect positively by it. And the songs that take many takes to get something out of it don't have such strong melody and are easily forgotten. For those kind of songs it takes great songwriting by the artists to be able to connect emotionally to the listener. I don't want to say by this, that only songs that have a strong or catchy melody have a impact on you, but that they are the songs that are the most memorable for us and, that we want to listen over and over again. There also songs that we can enjoy for the sound, the atmosphere or the complexity, but i think that those things should never overshadows the melody in the songs.

I think that the bands that have strong songwriting ability, by creating the best songs, are rare. Is this what we call "genius" , "gifted"? Is melody the essential part of music and the at a point where sometimes we can say that its surpassed the artist, just like he was control by a higher energy impossible to describe.

Genesis, Yes, Pink Floyd, PFM, Rush are in the category that i have in mind, and soul... when i am thinking about great songs with a sense of melody, which mean more than a succession of notes and tones, but something that reach the listener deeper,  a bit like when you find yourself humming or when people say that they can't get the songs out of their heads.

The simple short answer is NO, i love a lot of music, that i cant hum.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rdtprog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2012 at 04:48
I have read all replies and while some are deploring the subjective matter of the thread, i think that some tend to see the things in my perspective and others not, which is the norm in every philosophical thread. Its true that the term "best" in a title could be misleading, but a title is suppose to create a "immediate impact"..., so pardon me this intrusion. I was only making a observation of how my relation to the music can take different directions, and only that if i force myself to discover new kind of progressive music that is more complex, challenging or adventurous, i also in the same time, need to go back to beautiful melodies that doesn't have the repetition of pop music.

While some of view can discover some new things in a song by repeated listening, that is not to me the impact i was referring too. I am sure that a lot of you know on a first listening if a song have a impact on you and will still have in the future, and again i don't mean that it's a pop tune with catchy beat and melody, but it could be a song that contains many movements and a strong melody and it could be a classical song with no vocals. What could be subjective is that the classical pieces that have a impact doesn't reach me at the same level as a progressive rock song. I don't want to say that a form a music is better than another one, but only that the best composers on any music genre are the ones who have the art of touching  the audience with something in theirs songs that make that we want to hear their songs many times. It's like what we call here "The classic albums".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Moogtron III Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2012 at 05:11
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

^ that.
 
Exhibit A:

That is one of the best examples why I don't agree with the theory of the OP.
It took me some time to appreciate Tales, and now it's one of my favorite Yes albums.
Same goes for some other albums, like Camel's classic albums: it took me some time to really appreciate them.
I thought they were boring when I first listened to them.
Still, sometimes I think the theory is right after all: sometimes I hear a song/album for the first time, and I think by myself that one day I might really like it.
It's just not a matter of always.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2012 at 05:26
Originally posted by rdtprog rdtprog wrote:

I have read all replies and while some are deploring the subjective matter of the thread, i think that some tend to see the things in my perspective and others not, which is the norm in every philosophical thread. Its true that the term "best" in a title could be misleading, but a title is suppose to create a "immediate impact"..., so pardon me this intrusion. I was only making a observation of how my relation to the music can take different directions, and only that if i force myself to discover new kind of progressive music that is more complex, challenging or adventurous, i also in the same time, need to go back to beautiful melodies that doesn't have the repetition of pop music.

While some of view can discover some new things in a song by repeated listening, that is not to me the impact i was referring too. I am sure that a lot of you know on a first listening if a song have a impact on you and will still have in the future, and again i don't mean that it's a pop tune with catchy beat and melody, but it could be a song that contains many movements and a strong melody and it could be a classical song with no vocals. What could be subjective is that the classical pieces that have a impact doesn't reach me at the same level as a progressive rock song. I don't want to say that a form a music is better than another one, but only that the best composers on any music genre are the ones who have the art of touching  the audience with something in theirs songs that make that we want to hear their songs many times. It's like what we call here "The classic albums".
In that case I think you may be more *wrong* than I first imagined... I use the word *wrong* here in desperate need of another that more adequately conveys what I mean - I don't mean you are incorrect, because that is obviously not true for you, I mean that would be wrong for me and probably lots of other people reading this if that were our philosophy. Therefore it is not the generalisation implicit in the title or any explanation you've given. Many of us become quickly innured to songs that have immediate impact, and that is evident here in the misuse of that other word of contention - *overrated*. Bottom line is there is not general formula for what makes a classic album a classic album, it's not melody, catchiness, structure, subject matter, complexity, length or even who composed it (so no, I don't think the best composers are the ones who have the art of touching), yet it is possible that some classic albums some or all of those traits, and some that have none. No golden rules or everyone would be doing it.


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