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The best ones have a immediate impact

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thellama73 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote thellama73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The best ones have a immediate impact
    Posted: November 27 2012 at 16:08
Originally posted by rdtprog

I am going to simplify the thread by a simple question. What are the songs or albums that you listen the most over a long period of times? So now the debate will be over and will move to another debate.Wink Immediate impact or not., melodic or not...


I was hoping we could shift the thread topic to a discussion of my exceedingly clever analysis of A Passion Play. Unhappy
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rdtprog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2012 at 17:12
I am thinking about a cd that took me many listening to have a impact on me and the only one i can think of is the live album "Playing the Fool" by GG. But it was more a cerebral thing for me, and it was to impress my friend who was a big fan of the band. I must say that is one of the most interesting band for the mind in prog rock, because the sophistication and complexity of their music. But , again i have said another big word (mind) that will make some waves.
“Art is the proper task of life. ”
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tapfret Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 27 2012 at 20:32
Many times extreme reaction has a recoil. Many of the albums that I find the best took some growing and many that I was head over heals for became annoying (Most The Mars Volta and Dream Theater albums being examples).  Magma did not impact me at first but are now amongst my favorites.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote tamijo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2012 at 02:17
Originally posted by thellama73

Originally posted by tamijo

I still dont understand "A Passion Play"


It's a story about a hare who lost his spectacles. Observe:

The entirety of "A Passion Play" is simply an allegorical retelling of the more direct story of the Hare Who Lost His Spectacles."

In both cases the main character loses something(an object or his life) "and so I'm dead, the young man said"; "the hare has lost his spectacles"

The protagonist requires guidance to progress "a sweetly scented angel fell"; "without his spectacles he appeared completely helpless"

A group of unhelpful onlookers gathers, seeming to take pleasure in his predicament rather than really empathizing with him. "for the gory satisfaction of telling you how absolutely awful you really are.": "I have good eyesight, insight and foresight"

An ineffective solution is proposed. "show me a good man and I'll show you the door."; "you must go in search of the optician."

An alternative, equally foolish solution is proposed. "Flee the icy Lucifer. Oh, he's an awful fellow!"; "You can take him in your pouch."

The protagonist realizes the uselessness of the others' help "here's the everlasting rub, neither am I good nor bad."; "it had become quite plain to hare that the others knew nothing about spectacles."

He realizes that the solution to his problem had been with him right from the beginning. "I'd give up my halo for a horn, and the horn for the hat I once had."; "After all, hare did have a spare pair."

Doesn't it seem obvious now?
Sorry i was that unclear - i understand the story !
My point was, that "A Passion Play", is one classic albums, that never got to me, and I am a HUGE Tull
fan, I love TAAB, MITG, War Child, Songs from, Aqualung, Storm W., Heavy H. 
I have no idear why, but that one does not ring my bell. 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote AtomicCrimsonRush Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2012 at 03:00
There are not many albums that had an immediate impact but here are some of them.... now i have got my computer camera to work I can post them....




and these vinyls

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Post Options Post Options   Quote thellama73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 14:20
Originally posted by tamijo

Originally posted by thellama73

Originally posted by tamijo

I still dont understand "A Passion Play"


It's a story about a hare who lost his spectacles. Observe:

The entirety of "A Passion Play" is simply an allegorical retelling of the more direct story of the Hare Who Lost His Spectacles."

In both cases the main character loses something(an object or his life) "and so I'm dead, the young man said"; "the hare has lost his spectacles"

The protagonist requires guidance to progress "a sweetly scented angel fell"; "without his spectacles he appeared completely helpless"

A group of unhelpful onlookers gathers, seeming to take pleasure in his predicament rather than really empathizing with him. "for the gory satisfaction of telling you how absolutely awful you really are.": "I have good eyesight, insight and foresight"

An ineffective solution is proposed. "show me a good man and I'll show you the door."; "you must go in search of the optician."

An alternative, equally foolish solution is proposed. "Flee the icy Lucifer. Oh, he's an awful fellow!"; "You can take him in your pouch."

The protagonist realizes the uselessness of the others' help "here's the everlasting rub, neither am I good nor bad."; "it had become quite plain to hare that the others knew nothing about spectacles."

He realizes that the solution to his problem had been with him right from the beginning. "I'd give up my halo for a horn, and the horn for the hat I once had."; "After all, hare did have a spare pair."

Doesn't it seem obvious now?
Sorry i was that unclear - i understand the story !
My point was, that "A Passion Play", is one classic albums, that never got to me, and I am a HUGE Tull
fan, I love TAAB, MITG, War Child, Songs from, Aqualung, Storm W., Heavy H. 
I have no idear why, but that one does not ring my bell. 


So you agree with my analysis then?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ytse_Jam Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 18:17
I don't agree. Songs that take me at the first listens are usually the ones I get bored first, and some of my absolute favourite albums, like TAAB, Trilogy by ELP, or Stardust We Are by The Flower Kings, required me multiple listens to properly get into them.

Edited by Ytse_Jam - November 30 2012 at 18:34
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 19:40
Another factor is that when you discover a band which has already several good albums released but you had never heard yet, and you discover them by any particular album no matter which one in their release timing sequence and the band impresses you, it is likely that that album you heard first from the band will remain a favourite.
 
Just as example, I discovered Spock's Beard with The Kindness Of Strangers and it impressed me. Only later I heard The Light and Beware Of Darkness and their later albums. It's hard to tell which Spock's album I prefer the most now but Kindness will always remain a favourite.
It is likely that if the first album I ever heard from them was for example Beware, then it would be it to hold that special position.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2012 at 14:18
Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul

Originally posted by moshkito

In general, the best ones usually always have an impact in one way or another and none of the groups you mentioned had an immediate impact, btw ... in fact PF had serious issues with Syd at the lead, and some of the things they were doing live, were not the pop songs on the albums, which created a live issue for the band. YES, spent a long time trying to get it down and together, and it was their 3rd album that kicked in. Rush, I prefer not to discuss and PFM was already an established band by the time we heard about them in the rest of the world ...

The social impact of a group has nothing to do with the personal impact of a piece of music, which is what the OP was talking about.
 
There is no social impact without your reaction or mine, and no personal reaction, many times, without your friend telling you about something, or the board called Prog Archives, telling you, or helping you discuss something or other.
 
You can't have one without the other ... it's a symbiotic relationship, despite your not wanting to accept the basic fact on page one of Sociology and Psychology 101 in any college!
 
Seems to me that your sentence is off its rocker! A few smokes, or beers usually do that!
 
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... none of the hits, none of the time ... you might actually find your own art, or self, and forego lousy heroes or Guru's!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2012 at 22:58
^^^^  You are off the mark in terms of what the OP asked but it's an interesting point.  Would it really be the same thing if we were introduced to PF via Ummagumma instead of DSOTM?   How many of us would then be 'open minded' with one of the greatest rock bands of all times or, instead, write them off as pretentious jokers, never to listen to them again?   Today, we have the luxury of knowing where exactly these great bands hit their peak and can cherry pick the ones 'with an immediate impact' but even these great bands weren't great from day 1.   

I wonder if these canons like "greatest prog albums", greatest this and greatest that only serve to bias our mind and set our expectations at an unrealistic level.   I remember on a metal forum, somebody suggested that neophytes to metal should be introduced NOT through the best albums but through lesser ones which would still be good enough as a representation of the genre.  It was quickly shot down as a ridiculous idea, but I respected his point of view then and do so even more today.   We are not necessarily entitled to musical magic every time we listen to something.   There may be magic in the music but whether we perceive it as such also depends on whether we are enthusiastic or apathetic to the magician's tricks. As you said, it's a symbiotic relationship.  This is in a sense the bane of experience for a listener, it turns us into mistra-know-it-alls and takes us far away from the child within that could instantly fall in love with good music and didn't ask too much of the musicians. 




Edited by rogerthat - December 01 2012 at 23:00
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Post Options Post Options   Quote smartpatrol Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2012 at 23:34
Not usually. Most of my favorite albums took a few listens to make it's mark.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2012 at 03:16
To cut a long story short...........sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.............
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ferturi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2012 at 03:20
I do agree with the OP in one thing: I think melody is the main focus of music, or at least it is for me; I see melody as the "soul" of a song or any piece of music, the most basic and distinctive part of it and the one I personally value the most.

However, I don't think a good, strong melody is synnonymous with being a "simple, catchy" one; actually, many of the best melodies I've listened to I didn't get the first time, and this is especially true with progressive rock. As the melodies (and the whole musical experience) of progressive rock are very complex and intrincate, it's natural that it'll take some time to really appreciate them.
"Everyone knows rock attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact. " - Homer Simpson
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rdtprog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2012 at 04:50
Originally posted by Ferturi

I do agree with the OP in one thing: I think melody is the main focus of music, or at least it is for me; I see melody as the "soul" of a song or any piece of music, the most basic and distinctive part of it and the one I personally value the most.

However, I don't think a good, strong melody is synnonymous with being a "simple, catchy" one; actually, many of the best melodies I've listened to I didn't get the first time, and this is especially true with progressive rock. As the melodies (and the whole musical experience) of progressive rock are very complex and intrincate, it's natural that it'll take some time to really appreciate them.


Yes, i have put strong songs and catchy melody in the same sentence, which created confusion, and when i think it through, in progressive rock, the best songs have not much to do with catchy songs and songs that we can  easily playback in our head, i wouldn't be able to remember all the parts of one of my favorite track "Cinema Sow" even if i have listened to this a hundred times, but still it's a song that had a immediate impact on me, and that i can't get bored listening again 40 years later.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2012 at 05:19
Originally posted by rogerthat

^^^^  You are off the mark in terms of what the OP asked but it's an interesting point.  Would it really be the same thing if we were introduced to PF via Ummagumma instead of DSOTM?   How many of us would then be 'open minded' with one of the greatest rock bands of all times or, instead, write them off as pretentious jokers, never to listen to them again?   Today, we have the luxury of knowing where exactly these great bands hit their peak and can cherry pick the ones 'with an immediate impact' but even these great bands weren't great from day 1.   

I wonder if these canons like "greatest prog albums", greatest this and greatest that only serve to bias our mind and set our expectations at an unrealistic level.   I remember on a metal forum, somebody suggested that neophytes to metal should be introduced NOT through the best albums but through lesser ones which would still be good enough as a representation of the genre.  It was quickly shot down as a ridiculous idea, but I respected his point of view then and do so even more today.   We are not necessarily entitled to musical magic every time we listen to something.   There may be magic in the music but whether we perceive it as such also depends on whether we are enthusiastic or apathetic to the magician's tricks. As you said, it's a symbiotic relationship.  This is in a sense the bane of experience for a listener, it turns us into mistra-know-it-alls and takes us far away from the child within that could instantly fall in love with good music and didn't ask too much of the musicians. 


I'm not so sure that Pedro is as off the mark as it first appears. How we receive an album is influenced by preconception, expectation, confirmation bias, peer pressure and a host of other sociological and psychological reasons. Sometimes our desire to "fit in" (albeit to an elite group rather than the general populace) or to appear cool and with-it can predetermine how we approach an album we've never heard before but have heard good things about. This of course can be countered by our need to be individual and different to everyone else, the desire to be seen to make up our own minds about something even when that contradicts public opinion. With that we attempt to resolve the dichotomy that presents by our own subjective reasoning and arrive at conclusions that are the best fit to our own tastes and predelictions. When that succeeds we confirm what others have told us, when it fails it results in an unresolved contradiction and the assertion that "X" is overrated.
 
Your Pink Floyd example is an interesting one, especially as they have been successful in straddling several genres of popular music in their history, from their Psychedelic/Space Rock beginnings, through Progressive Rock to Classic Rock. Where in the that chronology you start can determine your opinion of them. I recall a long debate here several years ago (when Wish You Were Here topped our chart for a brief time) where someone asserted that they were not a Prog band and did not deserve the "progressive" accolades lauded upon them or their position on the top of our chart. After pages of heated debate it transpired that person had never heard anything prior to Dark Side Of The Moon. Once "encouraged" to listen to Echoes and Atom Heart Mother his opinion changed. [as an aside, my introduction to Floyd was Ummagumma and Atom Heart Mother - I cannot recall which was first because Iheard them both on the same day].
 
Taking all that into account there is more to what determines a "Classic Album" than passing old greys whistle test (also the ironic name of the famous UK TV programme that featured music that decidely would not pass such a test).


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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2012 at 05:26
"Off the mark" was probably the wrong word, I meant that it was a somewhat tangential response to a more specific question.    
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2012 at 05:30
Originally posted by rogerthat

"Off the mark" was probably the wrong word, I meant that it was a somewhat tangential response to a more specific question.    
Accepted. And on reflection I think we've both said the same things in our replies.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2012 at 07:49
 
Originally posted by rdtprog

I am going to simplify the thread by a simple question. What are the songs or albums that you listen the most over a long period of times? So now the debate will be over and will move to another debate.Wink Immediate impact or not., melodic or not...
I don't single out songs for repeated play and I cycle through my collection as there's no point in having an album if you don't listen to it every once in a while. Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2012 at 10:17
Originally posted by rdtprog

I am going to simplify the thread by a simple question. What are the songs or albums that you listen the most over a long period of times? So now the debate will be over and will move to another debate.Wink Immediate impact or not., melodic or not...



I guess I am not old enough for the 'long period of times' part!   Seriously, though...it depends and I really couldn't slot it neatly in any such box.   I have listened to a very simple but touching song like Brain Damage many, many times but also Is There Anybody There which just has a voice chant and then mournful guitar and violin.   I have also listened to Kontarkohz pt 2, The House The Street The Room and other compositions which are not really melodic in the generally used sense of the word many times.   I am not trying to deliberately take a...er, post modern position, that's honestly what my music taste is like.    Some jazz music doesn't fall neatly into either of the two categories you mentioned nor into the other end of the spectrum.  It's sort of catchy but not infectious.  It's not always very dissonant and is very often too relaxed to possess tension.  But the ghazal aficionado part of me doesn't find all these blue notes very melodic either.  That's the beauty of music for me. If I knew exactly what I liked most, it would be boring for me.  Might as well stop listening to any new music in that case.


Edited by rogerthat - December 02 2012 at 10:18
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Post Options Post Options   Quote HarbouringTheSoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 02 2012 at 12:10
Originally posted by moshkito

Originally posted by HarbouringTheSoul

Originally posted by moshkito

In general, the best ones usually always have an impact in one way or another and none of the groups you mentioned had an immediate impact, btw ... in fact PF had serious issues with Syd at the lead, and some of the things they were doing live, were not the pop songs on the albums, which created a live issue for the band. YES, spent a long time trying to get it down and together, and it was their 3rd album that kicked in. Rush, I prefer not to discuss and PFM was already an established band by the time we heard about them in the rest of the world ...

The social impact of a group has nothing to do with the personal impact of a piece of music, which is what the OP was talking about.
 
There is no social impact without your reaction or mine, and no personal reaction, many times, without your friend telling you about something, or the board called Prog Archives, telling you, or helping you discuss something or other.
 
You can't have one without the other ... it's a symbiotic relationship, despite your not wanting to accept the basic fact on page one of Sociology and Psychology 101 in any college!
 
Seems to me that your sentence is off its rocker! A few smokes, or beers usually do that!
 
Wink
 
Tongue
 
Cool

It was an exaggeration to say they have nothing to do with each other, but what I meant to say is that you were talking about a different type of "impact" than the OP. No reason to make outrageous assumptions about me.
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