Storytelling or illustrative component of Prog

I love Mike Oldfield's Five Miles Out (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqnOkgckKyY) for its ridiculousness, vocal stylings and the little bit of narrative that comes along with it all.

HackettFan wrote: octopus-4 wrote: Slartibartfast wrote: What got into prog in the first place was what you refer to as the storytelling component.  Of course just my luck I got heavily into prog just when that was being abandoned in favor of commercial appeal. Why should one listen to progressive electronic if it wasn't so?  I've posted this 2 years ago http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=357492 I just read your review of Senmuth - Eternal Images. "There is a concept. It's a mystic and esotheric travel around the world during which the ethnic elements are of course enhanced." It certainly sounds like it takes you outside of yourself as a story would do. Was it all instrumental?

Edited by octopus-4 - January 13 2013 at 07:33

Slartibartfast wrote: Don't negelect instrumentals that tell a story.  Case in point are a lot of the songs (I know I know some people are going to say how instrumentals can't be songs ) on this: What got into prog in the first place was what you refer to as the storytelling component.  Of course just my luck I got heavily into prog just when that was being abandoned in favor of commercial appeal.

Moshkito wrote: I'm not sure we "should" or "should not" be defining "progressive" or "prog" (one yesterday and the other today !!!! ) ... as HAVING to have a concept or story. But I do think, that almost ALL of these great albums we discuss DID have a thread that made it look like there was one ... but I doubt this is, or was, an issue in the early days of progressive music ... there is no concept or idea in the first albums by any of our big names ... and in many cases they were just trying to get defined ... but it took something like Yes's "Close to the Edge", JT's Thick as a Brick", Pink Floyd's "Atom Heart Mother" and other pieces, for folks to think that ... a concept was needed ... so this would not sound like just another Fillmore West jam ... like Iron Butterfly, or heaven forbid ... Grateful Dead! There was no "concept" in ITCOTCK ... it is the best screenshot of the life of Robert Fripp that you will ever find ... angry, mad, quiet, crying ... and his words are loud and clear through his guitar in that album ... the only concept in that album is called "Robert"! And we still think he is not a good, or great, man for all the work he has helped formulate all this time and still experiments with! Later, you got to see Nektar and many others do long pieces, and sometimes the albums were not "concepts" or "bound" by one.

Actually there were both concepts and stories in some of earliest of the big name Prog groups. It just depends which ones we're talking about. I want to be careful because a concept album doesn't mean there's actually a story. Genesis' first album, From Genesis to Revelation, was a concept album, but had no coherent story that ran through it. Half the songs on their next album, Trespass, did contain stories (White Mountain, Stagnation, and The Knife), but Trespass was not a concept album. This would be the normal pattern on up to the Lamb (my all time favorite), which was both a concept album and a story.

The first Nektar album was Journey to the Center of the Eye (among my all time favorites) came out in 1971, which is neither early nor way late in the history of Prog. It contained a story that ran through the entire album. This was the case for all their following albums up through Recycled (although I'm ignorant about the content of Down to Earth).

The first Mothers of Invention album, Freak Out, was a concept album, but had no coherent storyline running through it. ITCOCK, as you were saying, is not tied together with any concept and, more importantly for this discussion, none of the tracks had any storyline.

So I think the history is a mixed bag, which is why this intrigues me so. It also occurs to me that how central storytelling is to Prog depends on the personal histories of the fans with respect to which bands they discovered first. For me, Genesis was my entry into Prog (Not to mention that reading mythology was a hobby I acquired very early as a youngster and continued through my college years. I am also a linguist by profession and my dissertation was concerned in part with storytelling in a particular endangered language). So, you find storytelling not very significant to classic Prog and that is interesting to me. Part of that I'm sure is, as you have already represented, your interest in state of consciousness writing, but I am interested in what your first few Prog music interests were. I think this would be enlightening.

moshkito wrote: HackettFan wrote: ...   However, some have engaged in storytelling. I want to know how people regard its general significance to Classic Prog and how it fares in Modern Prog?   I am cautious about this ... because you can go back to many people and things that supposedly also did a "concept", even if it was just drugs, like Sgt Peppers, or Their Satanic Majesty's Request, or even a more obvious one Days of Future Past ... and for giggles, you can also do Ogden's Nut Gone Flakes! Music is music, and if there is a story in there in the music, we can hear it ... if it is just a bunch of lyrics supposedly telling us that this is about A and B and C and they slept together ever after ... fine ... but we're not all Jackie Collins fans, and a "story" for us is ok if it is an alleghory, but not real! Again, the whole conceptualization of it gets distorted ... and it might not have a story ... and folks like David Bowie like to make it look like they had a story (Spiders from Mars//the next album and so forth) and then he does an interview and he speaks volumes about his lyrics when he says ... it's like 52 pickup and sometimes a few things click, and come things don't, and eventually you learn to trust that and even make it better!

This is an interesting point and I agree. The sense of a story, or shall we say, the impression of a story may have been more important than the particulars of the story itself. This actually makes the subject even more intriguing to me.

Moshkito wrote: And then you get Laurie Anderson and Burroughs together and conceptualization takes a huge hit ... where do you start? Naked Lunch? ... where do you end? Superman?   Makes me think that after 75 years ... we're still trying to dismantle the mantle!

Well, yes, there is a lot of trash out there in every quarter.

Thanks for your continued interest in this thread. Best.

Edited by HackettFan - January 07 2013 at 22:30

moshkito wrote: HackettFan wrote: I think I recall from somewhere that you're a writer, yet you're dissing stories? I find that curious. ... BINGO! You are not seeing the whole thing, or my point. There are two ways to "write" ... you can sit and think it all out, then write. Or you can close your eyes (so to speak) and "write" ... a veritable stream of consciousness if you will that has absolutely NOTHING to do with your ideas or mine. I have no idea -- and I personally do not care -- if you think there is a story or not in the poem, or short story, or if it means something to you or not. I can not, in any way shape or form, control that ... and it is UP TO YOU, to find and see what you can gain from it ... not for me (or anyone else for that matter!) to tell you what you should be getting out of it!

I'm putting you down as not an Umberto Eco type semiotics fan. Me neither, but for different reasons, no doubt.

Moshkito wrote: As you can tell, and have seen, I like the ideas that we do not know, understand or care for ... thus the improvisations are good, the experimental is just as good ... as anything else out there ... BUT there is a problem here ... the majority of people don't like things that "they don't know", or "they have to figure" it out.

Absolutely. I've tried to say as much with the expressionism/impressionism comparison. Some music does not have a story at all. Some music is improvised in stream of consciousness fashion. That's how I play guitar on a daily basis as a matter of fact. Some music is made on the fly. I'm quite in favor of this. Nevertheless, I'm quite interested in storytelling in music (as well as storytelling in general), and stories do tend to involve a more pre-planning, a little less on the fly, although I see no reason a story could not be improvised.

Moshkito wrote: Thus, the lazy ones, would rather have "the lyrics" tell THEM, what this is all about!

I don't care if there even are lyrics. There are in some cases I've already talked about. There aren't in others. Even in many cases when there are lyrics, they may be quite mysterious and obscure. Even when stories are not obscure, the listener has to construct from limited input a mental world robust enough for the story to take place, this is not as passive a cognitive operation as you present.

Moshkito wrote: I have nothing to hide. If it comes off as hidden, it's what I saw, but I do not deplore my work ... it is what it is, and WHEN it came out ... and I do not subscribe to the Christian (or any other school of thought or religion!) that believes in teh scourge ... like rock music fans and top of the pops or commercial music "demands" that you kiss the current money maker, or the scourge is on you! Too many folks are like that here, already!

Hunh? I'm an atheist. If I have scourge on me, please get it off...hey, look! A bunny rabbit!...um, so we're still talking about stream of consciousness versus storytelling, I think?

Moshkito wrote: You have heard me talk of the "abstract" things, and the experiments, and the breaking down of all forms of the arts in the 20th century ... and still you say something like that ... that is bizarre, to say the least ...

I said something like what?

Moshkito wrote: Look ... why do you have to break down what Miro did? ... Why do you think that Miro has to kiss your bunny to tell you what he is doing? ... and why, ohhh why, should any rock band out there have to tell you what they are doing, assuming, they even know ... enough ... to be able to create some meaningful lyrics, instead of crap!

Can I be this misunderstood? I don't think that any artist should have to tell us what they're doing (as in telling stories). This is not a thread about what artists ought to do. However, some have engaged in storytelling. I want to know how people regard its general significance to Classic Prog and how it fares in Modern Prog?

moshkito wrote: Hi,   I'm not sure we "should" or "should not" be defining "progressive" or "prog" (one yesterday and the other today !!!! ) ... as HAVING to have a concept or story. But I do think, that almost ALL of these great albums we discuss DID have a thread that made it look like there was one ... but I doubt this is, or was, an issue in the early days of progressive music ... there is no concept or idea in the first albums by any of our big names ... and in many cases they were just trying to get defined ... but it took something like Yes's "Close to the Edge", JT's Thick as a Brick", Pink Floyd's "Atom Heart Mother" and other pieces, for folks to think that ... a concept was needed ... so this would not sound like just another Fillmore West jam ... like Iron Butterfly, or heaven forbid ... Grateful Dead!   There was no "concept" in ITCOTCK ... it is the best screenshot of the life of Robert Fripp that you will ever find ... angry, mad, quiet, crying ... and his words are loud and clear through his guitar in that album ... the only concept in that album is called "Robert"! And we still think he is not a good, or great, man for all the work he has helped formulate all this time and still experiments with!   Later, you got to see Nektar and many others do long pieces, and sometimes the albums were not "concepts" or "bound" by one.   Classical music, is bound by "concepts" ... and so few albums do not have a "story" that this symphony or concert or something else ... is supposed to be about. In the past 50 years, so much of music history is about ... TAKE THE DAMN STORY OUT ... which is weird, that "progressive" folks would think that a "story" is needed, when almost all the modern art has been about taking the story out! Go find a story in Godot! And Ian will be laughing at you, about the same idea and concept when he jokes in the video ... "this is progressive" ... and "this is not progressive" ... !!! It's very pointed English humor ... so Oxford'ian ... or Cambridgian (is that the right word?)!   I do not look for "concepts" or "ideas" in listening to music, since just as much has "the suggestive elelents of both" in many parts of their work ...   I hear more music, concepts and life, in Sandy Denny's voice, than I do in most of the music that supports her!   I hear more music in Peter Hammill's voice, than I do on what is under him ... up until about 10 years ago ... he has lost that edge now. He's almost too mental now.   And sometimes, vocals, are not necessarily ... "the story" of the piece, even though we're being told that they are. The perfect example of this is Gong ... where both Daevid and Gilly were extremelly well versed in the "beat poet" thing, and already knew that it didn't matter ... if you did it or not ... no one would know the difference! And if it was a concept, it was as good as none!   If you want stories ... go back to your childhood ... childhood ... child hoood ... childhood ... ohhh wait ... that's an old Vivian joke!

I think I recall from somewhere that you're a writer, yet you're dissing stories? I find that curious. Yes, I do like stories, adult stories, sci-fi, mythology, children's stories, bedtime stories and so on. I actually don't think storytelling is definable as a necessary component of Prog. My prior post was intended to communicate that. But I left open for discussion whether it was sufficient. If it is sufficient, then that's one way understanding its importance. So I'm looking for some input on whether there are any reason to consider Duke's Travels and Recycled Prog, other than that they are aural renditions of stories, or is it just simply that. I'm not convinced that Duke's Travels is in fact Prog, but some people consider it so. The case for Recycled as Prog is stronger because of the length, but I'm not convinced about it either. Just because it's long doesn't mean it's Prog. Recycled sounds to me like a series of commercially accessible segments with very ordinary playing. Am I missing anything? Nektar's Journey to the Center of the Eye, by comparison, tells a story yet is also experimental in obvious ways. I do love Recycled, but it's a bit of a guilty pleasure. So, should I consider it Prog because I've overlooked some interesting qualities about it, or simply because it conveys a story. Or is this not Prog, and a story is not sufficient to make this Prog. Or do you or anyone have another musical piece you would like to bring front and center. Smallcreep's Day anyone? It's been a long time since I've heard that one. I don't have any clearcut opinion that I'm trying to advance, but I am interested in what other people have to say on this.

Hi,

Edited by moshkito - January 05 2013 at 12:00

Ambient Hurricanes wrote: HackettFan wrote: Ambient Hurricanes wrote: A Dramatic Turn of Events, DTs most recent album, has no literal storyline but tells a story emotionally.  It's a bit of a story archetype, actually.  It's kind of like the soundtrack to an imaginary movie.  That might fit more into the "mood" mode that you're describing with Marillion, but to me the story the album tells is very real. I wouldn't have expected DT to be likely candidates, but your description sounds promising and my exposure to them has been greatly limited. I think I'll look into buying it and seeing what it's like. I do think a story has to be more than simply a dumping of emotions. It has to have stuff transpiring - conflicts, resolutions and so on. And I'm looking to hear stuff transpire in the instrumental sections not just the lyrics so that we're talking more than just ballads (although lyrics might still be among the storytelling devices used). I do, however, think that emotion is compatible with a story and desirable too. I would say that the DT album depicts plot/conflict/resolution through emotion rather than through a literal telling of the story.  The instrumental sections definitely play a large part, too; you may want to check out "The Count of Tuscany" by the same band for that, if you can get past the atrocious lyrics.

I ordered Dramatic Turn of Events. It's only supposed to take 18 to 28 days to arrive    Been noticing how apt the title of the album is with content of this thread.

<ahem>

There is a symphonic rock opera currently at #4 of the top albums of 2012 on this site that may be of interest! ;-)

</ahem>

Ambient Hurricanes wrote: A Dramatic Turn of Events, DTs most recent album, has no literal storyline but tells a story emotionally.  It's a bit of a story archetype, actually.  It's kind of like the soundtrack to an imaginary movie.  That might fit more into the "mood" mode that you're describing with Marillion, but to me the story the album tells is very real.

I wouldn't have expected DT to be likely candidates, but your description sounds promising and my exposure to them has been greatly limited. I think I'll look into buying it and seeing what it's like.

I do think a story has to be more than simply a dumping of emotions. It has to have stuff transpiring - conflicts, resolutions and so on. And I'm looking to hear stuff transpire in the instrumental sections not just the lyrics so that we're talking more than just ballads (although lyrics might still be among the storytelling devices used). I do, however, think that emotion is compatible with a story and desirable too.