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Synths, anything special with multiples of 8?

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Gerinski View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Synths, anything special with multiples of 8?
    Posted: February 09 2013 at 06:34
During the research for my blog about instruments commonly used in Prog I realised that certain features in keyboards / synths frequently showed up in multiples of 8 (or you could say of 4), particularly:

a) the number of voices in polyphonic synths. While not a golden rule it seems that polyphony evolution frequently went like 8-voices, 16-voices, 32-voices, 64-voices, 128 voices.

b) the number of memory patches, again not a golden rule but it was also frequently 16, 32, 64, 128...

None of these features seem to have any particular requirement towards this, I mean, a synth could perfectly have 50 voices or memory patches, or 100 or 125 or 150 or whatever, 64 or 128 seem like odd numbers to choose?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote HolyMoly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2013 at 08:09
Well, there are 8 notes in major and minor scales, if you count the octaves twice.  It just seems like an aesthetically pleasing number in music.  That may have at least had a subconscious effect on the designers.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2013 at 09:02
Subconsciously (or consciously) that has no effect on the engineers - there are 12 semitones in an octave and that's the figure we design to - we don't design a synth with 8-notes in an octave.
 
2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128 etc. is binary, which fits will with digtial circuitry, and it also a binary progression, (double, then double, then double again ad infinitum). Even in analogue circuitry things happen in powers of two - if you make a VCO you can make a dual VCO, if you add another dual VCO into a system you get 4 VCOs, etc. If you have 4 VCOs then you can distrubute those over a binary division of voices, patches of keyboard bank. Those divisions will also be a binary division.
 
If you can multiply up the complexity of a circuit by simply doubling the number of fuctional blocks then they can be divided just as easily. So if you have a bank of many circuits it is more flexible to make them divisible by powers of two therefore more natural to make them in powers of two.
 
128 is far more natural than 150 - if you think about all the factors of 150 (2, 3, 5, 6, 10, 15, 25, 30, 50, 75) they are not all factors of each other whereas factors of 128 (2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64) all are factors of each other.
 
 
 


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ajay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2013 at 09:11
Powers of two are common in computing.

The progression you mention, though, Gerinski, generally holds only from about the late '80s. Early polysynths (e.g. the Polymoog, the Korg PE-1000) were fully polyphonic - every key could sound simultaneously. The Prophets are 5-, 10-, and most recently, 12-voice polyphonic.

Similarly, the Prophet 5 had about 40 patch memories, the Yamaha GX-1 had 70.


Edited by Ajay - February 09 2013 at 09:12
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2013 at 09:19

^ "3" was another common number in early synths.



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2013 at 11:54
Originally posted by Ajay

Powers of two are common in computing.

The progression you mention, though, Gerinski, generally holds only from about the late '80s. Early polysynths (e.g. the Polymoog, the Korg PE-1000) were fully polyphonic - every key could sound simultaneously. The Prophets are 5-, 10-, and most recently, 12-voice polyphonic.

Similarly, the Prophet 5 had about 40 patch memories, the Yamaha GX-1 had 70.
Thanks for the info.
According to this site, the GX-1 did not have any memory patches (specs table on the right: 'Memory = none').



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2013 at 19:15
Originally posted by Gerinski

Originally posted by Ajay

Powers of two are common in computing.

The progression you mention, though, Gerinski, generally holds only from about the late '80s. Early polysynths (e.g. the Polymoog, the Korg PE-1000) were fully polyphonic - every key could sound simultaneously. The Prophets are 5-, 10-, and most recently, 12-voice polyphonic.

Similarly, the Prophet 5 had about 40 patch memories, the Yamaha GX-1 had 70.
Thanks for the info.
According to this site, the GX-1 did not have any memory patches (specs table on the right: 'Memory = none').



The preset patches on the GX-1 were 70 "tone modules", each containing 26 resistor dividers for setting various parameters on the sound banks.
 


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2013 at 20:36
Originally posted by Dean

The preset patches on the GX-1 were 70 "tone modules", each containing 26 resistor dividers for setting various parameters on the sound banks.
 
Thanks, I guess I was meaning user-storable patches memory, not presets.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote awaken77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2013 at 03:58
Originally posted by Gerinski

b) the number of memory patches, again not a golden rule but it was also frequently 16, 32, 64, 128...

None of these features seem to have any particular requirement towards this, I mean, a synth could perfectly have 50 voices or memory patches, or 100 or 125 or 150 or whatever, 64 or 128 seem like odd numbers to choose?


"Binary" numbers come from the fact that, most synthesizers are actually specialized computers, having CPU and memory. and number of patches is limited by memory available. Memory units have size measured in power of 2 (256, 512, 1024, etc) . So , if there is a chip capable of 256, why use only 170? 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 11 2013 at 07:31
Originally posted by awaken77

 
"Binary" numbers come from the fact that, most synthesizers are actually specialized computers, having CPU and memory. and number of patches is limited by memory available. Memory units have size measured in power of 2 (256, 512, 1024, etc) . So , if there is a chip capable of 256, why use only 170? 
I'm totally ignorant about electronics and computing and although I can follow these arguments to a certain point, I'm not sure that I get them because I don't think that things like a memory patch or a voice utilize single whole units of memory or computing power.
I mean, if I have a memory of say 2 Mb, which if I'm not wrong is 2048 Kb, and a memory patch may need (say for example, I have no idea how much) around 20 Kb, that would still give a capacity for 100 patches, the relationship to the binary series is lost by the magnification, isn't it?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote notesworth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 21 2013 at 19:25
Some synths have 100 patches - the Korg M1 and T3 come to mind. So do a lot of older home keyboards. My Casio CTK-601 has 200 patches.

Apart from the ease of programming, a lot of modern synths use multiples of 128 so they can fit a General MIDI bank in. So a lot of synths have 256, 384, 512, etc. patches.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Dmnicbrlw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 22 2013 at 01:49
Korg M1 is legend and I am thinking to buy M1rex also.  I need advice, Is there a difference in sound between he m1r and m1r-ex?or should I look for some other.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote awaken77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2013 at 03:40
Originally posted by Gerinski

[QUOTE=awaken77] 
I mean, if I have a memory of say 2 Mb, which if I'm not wrong is 2048 Kb, and a memory patch may need (say for example, I have no idea how much) around 20 Kb, that would still give a capacity for 100 patches, the relationship to the binary series is lost by the magnification, isn't it?

Patch number is stored in memory cell, if the cell is 8 bit, max possible number of patches is 256
or 128, if 7-bit  used

I guess this is why old General Midi standard allowed only 128 patches . It was  invented in the time, where most chips used in synthesizers was 8 bit 

even in the 8-bit era, it was possible to overcome this limitation. for example, have 2 separate cells for storing bank number and patch number , having 256*256 possible combinations 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote engineer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2013 at 13:03
Right, the adressing of the micro controllers ist the main point. Adressing something different than a binary number is either  a waste of resources or exceeds some limits. For the number of voices of a synth, it might be different since this is a question of processing power. For dynamic processing it is someting like CPU-Power/Complexity and could be any number.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote King Only Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2013 at 13:55
I'd guess that the first polyphonic synth used on a lot of recordings was the Prophet 5? Or maybe the Oberheim 2 voice or 4 voice? Plus the 'string machines' which were fully polyphonic. So the eight voice machines didn't come until later.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2013 at 14:12
Originally posted by King Only

I'd guess that the first polyphonic synth used on a lot of recordings was the Prophet 5? Or maybe the Oberheim 2 voice or 4 voice? Plus the 'string machines' which were fully polyphonic. So the eight voice machines didn't come until later.
The Prophet 5 came out in 1978, if I'm not wrong the first commercial polyphonic synth was the Polymoog which was fully polyphonic (1975) and the Yamaha GX-1 (8 voice polyphonic).
The Oberheims came very soon afterwards, as well as the Korgs.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote King Only Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 19 2013 at 14:24
Originally posted by Gerinski

 The Prophet 5 came out in 1978, if I'm not wrong the first commercial polyphonic synth was the Polymoog which was fully polyphonic (1975) and the Yamaha GX-1 (8 voice polyphonic).
The Oberheims came very soon afterwards, as well as the Korgs.

Yeah you are right. But I think the GX-1 was really expensive and also not many were made, so not many artists used it on their recordings? Not sure about the Polymoog but I don't recall it being listed on many albums. I've seen the Prophet 5 and the Oberheims listed on a lot of albums. I think they were much more affordable and more reliable than the Polymoog and the GX-1.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2013 at 03:45
Originally posted by King Only

Originally posted by Gerinski

 The Prophet 5 came out in 1978, if I'm not wrong the first commercial polyphonic synth was the Polymoog which was fully polyphonic (1975) and the Yamaha GX-1 (8 voice polyphonic).
The Oberheims came very soon afterwards, as well as the Korgs.

Yeah you are right. But I think the GX-1 was really expensive and also not many were made, so not many artists used it on their recordings? Not sure about the Polymoog but I don't recall it being listed on many albums. I've seen the Prophet 5 and the Oberheims listed on a lot of albums. I think they were much more affordable and more reliable than the Polymoog and the GX-1.
Indeed the GX-1 was very expensive and rare (not to mention the logistical problems derived from its huge size and weight). Keith Emerson had 2, Stevie Wonder another 2, John Paul Jones, Rick Van Der Linden and ABBA had one each.
The Polymoog was not very successful either, plagued by reliability problems and questioned sound performance. It was partly developed by Keith Emerson but by the time it came out commercially Keith was changing from Moog to Yamaha. Rick Wakeman, Patrick Moraz or Klaus Schulze used it but it was never highly popular.
The 1976 Yamaha CS80 was the first moderately successful polysynth (16 voice polyphonic) but the Prophet 5 was indeed a huge hit thanks to being cheaper, lighter and its 40 user-storable memory patches. The Oberheims were also very popular.
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