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Kati 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: September 10 2010 Location: Earth Status: Offline Points: 6253 |
 Posted: February 25 2013 at 14:07 |
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Hello you nit-picky   But in all seriousness now wow Toddler's post above is seriously the negative reality and not fair :( bah awwww the typical sad side of human anarchism and epiphany of selfishness. I would be traumatized really  |
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5100 |
Posted: February 25 2013 at 13:37 |
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Sorry for being nit-picky but his name was spelled Randy Rhoads.
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: February 25 2013 at 13:11 |
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I told this story before...but it always sums up my own life and has value. Steve Laury was a fine Jazz guitarist I knew from age 15 and on...in my hometown ..in Vineland N.J. He was 6 years older than me and very much to me an icon, mentor, as a teenager. He progressed to the west coast and played in the Jazz/fusion band FATTBURGER. They released several cd's and Steve eventually left releasing cd's as a solo artist. He became a internationally known Jazz artist and was offered a record deal with a major label (who shall remain nameless), through an old school pal who was at the time a record executive for this major label. The staff had been playing his cd and the head honcho decided to give Steve a whirl. He was playing Steve's cd in his office when in walked another Jazz/fusion guitarist who was more famous than Steve. I can't tell you his name for I could get into trouble. sorry. He told the boss not to sign Steve and it would not be in his best interest for the label to sign him. Steve lost a chance to take a step further and this jealous musician completely destroyed all of his high ideals. Steve is a fine guitarist and check out Steve Laury.."Shut Up And Listen" on Y.T. Ronnie Kayfield ..I had played circuits with in the 70's. He was designing guitars as a sideline...while touring . Ozzy Osborne had just lost his guitarist Randy Rhodes in a horrific plane crash and decided to hire Brad Gillis. Ozzy usually bought guitars for his guitarists and so he met Ronnie. Ozzy asked him to demonstrate the guitar for him. Ronnie played identical to Randy Rhodes and Ozzy said he would pay for Ronnie's airline ticket and to meet him in England to begin the new rehearsals and chose Ronnie over Brad Gillis. Ronnie and his wife landed at the airport and were greeted by Pete Way (x-UFO). Pete Way told Ronnie and his wife that Ozzy was ill and that we should form our own band which became WAYSTED. WAYSTED then opened for Ozzy on a U.S. tour. When Ozzy saw Ronnie on stage with WAYSTED he later pulled him aside and said...'What bloody happened?" "I payed for your airline ticket!" "You were supposed to show up and what happened?" That's a pretty rude awakening ? I mean..to say he is traveling on the road with Pete Way and this happens? |
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Kati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 10 2010 Location: Earth Status: Offline Points: 6253 |
Posted: February 25 2013 at 12:18 |
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Hi Toddler Wow you must have some interesting stories to tell about travels. You made a good point above. The odds in making it into the music industry is very slim, progressive music even worse, it's certainly not fair and most corporate office suits who make the key decisions don't even appreciate good music, in general they look at profit numbers on paper not the quality of music this is obvious. Luckily we have the internet now for artists to share and release their own music independently. Even so it's almost impossible for prog artists to make a living as musicians. Another
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: February 25 2013 at 00:34 |
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Exactly.
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011 Location: Los Angeles, CA Status: Offline Points: 10970 |
Posted: February 25 2013 at 00:03 |
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^ I see. You are saying that technical proficiency is essential to virtuosity, though a person who is not a virtuoso can still be technically proficient. Did I get it right?
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: February 24 2013 at 23:13 |
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Be that as it may, if you say technical proficiency has no place in art, neither would virtuosity. Virtuosity and technical proficiency are different animals, in the sense that virtuosity is more advanced and broader. A virtuoso necessarily has to be technically proficient in the first place, and he combines it with the ability to express and understanding of songwriting and performing traditions. Hence, the deeper you delve into art music, the greater the requirements of technical proficiency. |
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: February 24 2013 at 20:38 |
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Wow!...great experiences you had
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cstack3
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: July 20 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 6767 |
Posted: February 24 2013 at 16:03 |
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Great post, Toddler! Yeah, the communication between musicians, especially onstage, is what sends me aloft! Best stage communication I can remember was always King Crimson (mind you, I saw the LTiA tour without Muir!). Fripp was always the orchestra leader, perched Stage Left on his stool, directing his band with simple glances and nearly imperceptible nods. Man, those suckers were TIGHT!! Frank Zappa was an extremely close second. I once saw him conduct his band with a baton, standing in front, Gibson SG still hanging around his neck!! Yes seemed to communicate by telepathy, their music didn't involve much improv, so they could get away with their "stage in the round," where none of 'em could even see one another!! Amazing but also a bit sterile. Probably the most incredible guitar duo I ever saw was Steve Vai and his co-guitarist, Mike Keneally, on the G3 tour in 1997....those guys could SHRED, note for note, through complicated time changes & key changes!! Huh, Zappa alums!! The FZ University must have been something (IF you lived through the experience!). During the show I saw, Mike Keneally jammed over Fripp's live Soundscapes to open the show....it was unreal! So, I vote "Yea" for more virtuosity in prog music! However, virtuosity is more than just speed or accuracy....it is respect for fellow musicians and audience, taste, and knowledge of when to do what. Sorry, rambled on! Rock on, Toddler!
Edited by cstack3 - February 24 2013 at 16:15 |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16215 |
Posted: February 24 2013 at 15:56 |
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Hi,
Virtuosity is highly over rated, and often mis-interpreted. To the point that Ian Anderson could blow any classical flautist out of the room and the planet! And the music that Ian plays is considered way simpler than the classical material out there that uses flute, for example ... but they all lack one thing that Ian has that they don't ... FEELING ... and EXPRESSION! If "progressive" is guilty of being virtuous, it would be that a lot of these people went out of their way to expand their language and expression, and in time that became a virtuosity in its own right ... I'm pretty sure that Robert Fripp and everyone in the first KC album would tell you that they were all kids just learning their music at 19 or 20 when they put the album together, but you can not dispute the strength of the feelings and words in that album ... which defined the music all along! There are many folks, and bands out there that feature virtuosity, and in today's terms, you can look at a guitar in Dream Theater ... if that were a violin, it would be considered an absolute master playing it ... but it is an electric guitar, and we do not have the ability, strength, or beauty, to consider the Electric guitar an important instrument for an expression, like a violin has for 400 years, and so forth! But is it necessary? Ask Richard Harvey ... I don't think so ... you want to do this, this way, and you do it ... I'm not sure that you are thinking about virtuosity when you are playing your music ... you just want to get it right to your own standards and designs and that has less to do with virtuosity, than it does your own expression. By the time, you hear Jaco, Jean Luc Ponty, Frank Zappa, Keith Jarrett, Egberto Gismonti ... now your idea of "virtuosity" comes back into play ... but many folks would immediately say ... that's not progressive ... that's virtuosity ... and I am not sure that, both are exactly the same thing ... one looked at from the right and the other looked at from the left ... and the only thing that matters is the life the music creates in between those two opposite polar ends!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: February 24 2013 at 14:26 |
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People who set up guitar contests or try to cut heads in Jazz/fusion are pretty much dismissed in my life. That was a huge mentality in the late 70's and through 80's that I tend to see as a waste of energy. I had studied guitar since age 7 and would be invited to a jam where king gymnastic chooch stood before me spending his afternoon trying to play faster than me in front of everyone. Very insulting and disgraceful to the art of music. It's okay for maybe 1 fusion jam, but not the entire course of the night. That's very macho, annoying, and moronic to me. On the road I met many older guitarist who played in the vain of Bucky Pizzarelli, George Barnes, Les Paul, and Django Reinhart. They jammed differently. They respected each other's expression and stayed out of each other's way. I spent more time with George Benson's live at Carnegie Hall 1975. He was very fast, clean, and expressive. Many outstanding players found the shredding contests to be moronic.
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rdtprog
Special Collaborator 
Heavy, RPI, Symph, JR/F Canterbury Teams Joined: April 04 2009 Location: Mtl, QC Status: Offline Points: 5145 |
Posted: February 24 2013 at 14:18 |
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Virtuosity is part of the overall sound of a song, if you use a mediocre musician to play a great song, you'll have terrible result. But the opposite is also true, if you make the best musician play a song that have no emotion, melody, you'll have the same results. The two goes together like body and spirit and the best band are those who find the best balance between the two.
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Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness.
Emile M. Cioran |
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Progosopher
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 12 2009 Location: Coolwood Status: Offline Points: 6395 |
Posted: February 24 2013 at 13:28 |
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 So much of this seems to presume that virtuosity is something that can be measured. Sure, things like speed, tempo, and what-not are measurable. I love listening to all of the guitarists mentioned here, and on technical aspects they all have their virtues and limitations. But I have always understood virtuosity as being also about personal interpretation and expression. With classical music, you can hear the difference between say Perlman and Sarah Chang on the same piece. Both are virtuosos, but they interpret the music differently. That is why Otto Klemperer was known for conducting his interpretations of Beethoven's symphonies. On a similar note, Arthur Rubinstein was not regarded as one of the best interpreters of Beethoven's piano concerti, but having heard them I do not care - the music and his performances are incredible.
With Prog, we are talking about people who perform mostly their own material, so we get not so much an issue of interpretation as one of expression. Di Meola expresses himself on the guitar in a different way than Fripp, for example. Both are amazing guitarists for different reasons. Both are virtuosos, but in different ways. This is why I listen to a lot of different guitarists - each wows me in different ways.
 We can reduce music to its technicalities. Indeed, we must do so if we are to understand how it functions both as listeners and for many of us as musicians. But we cannot reduce artistry to measurable quanta, even though we can experience it in a variety of ways (which can be cultivated and expanded).
   As a fan of Prog and good playing (I am the first to say that good music is good music no matter what genre we put it in), especially of guitar since I have been playing for more than 35 years, I have really been enjoying this thread. So
 to all my bros out there, and  to the ladies, especially Sonia who, like me, is a big Al Di Meola fan. |
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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: February 24 2013 at 07:04 |
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^^^ All of that is quite true and more or less sums up the bizarre ways of the industry.
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TODDLER
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
Posted: February 24 2013 at 06:24 |
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You're funny!
 ....It's cool that you are a DiMeola fan. I think some cats criss-cross him with others like John Goodsall stating "Have a look see"..."this guy is fast too"...I'd like to clear the air of these intentions and say that in my case..it has to do with road travel..where in my youth I traveled along side of guitarists who were older than me that had enough experience and chops to blow your head off and make you wonder why they were not signed to a label like DiMeola? I traveled for 30 years and could not believe the amazing musicians who did not rise above theatres and clubs. No one in particular knows who they are...but being 18 years old and traveling the road...you come to the realization that there is a tribe of guitarists underneath the so called "top of the game" guitarists like DiMeola, McLaughlin, and others who are in fact just as capable to be that diverse. They haven't been signed and if they were signed it was brief where upon they backed another fusion or folk artist on a session and their name was not credited....which was my case.. But seriously...I was simply hoping to reach you on that point alone without intruding upon or insulting your tastes in music. I like In the Land of tHE Midnight Sun, Casino, and his work on Romantic Warrior. |
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Kati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 10 2010 Location: Earth Status: Offline Points: 6253 |
Posted: February 24 2013 at 01:01 |
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   everything you said, cstack3  I can relate to it |
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cstack3
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: July 20 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 6767 |
Posted: February 24 2013 at 00:57 |
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Bob Fripp could smoke any of 'em. I've known Fripp since the 1980s, have played in a band with one of his first Guitar Craft students, and played guitar for about 45 years myself.
The scalar riffing of DiMeola is very impressive, but not nearly as much as Fripp's remarkable cross-picking technique. Fripp also has ungodly long and strong fingers, his reach is unreal. And we can't forget, McLaughlin is the guv who launched this whole thing! I LOVE DiMeola, mind you, and he has done many remarkable things in fusion, world music etc. Al DiMeola and many other modern guitar phenoms come out of either Berklee School of Music or the Guitar Institute of Technology, and the craft of playing guitar is much more refined than in the early 1970's. The instructors have taken the innovations of McLaughlin, Martino and others and honed them into amazing curriculum. John Petrucci is probably the most technically perfect guitarist to take a stage in this decade, but I find his music to be very cold. Frank Gambale just amazes with his sweep-picking technique (he has taught at the GIT), but I know even better players. It is just amazing how many gunslingers are out there! Fortunately, the hair-band shredders of the 1980's have pretty much gone away. Look around for the hidden gems out there, a lot of amazing guitar players are toiling away in the orchestra pits of the big city shows (Thjis Van Leer was in a pit in Amsterdam when he founded Focus, playing keys for " Hair"). I can think of half a dozen in Chicago who would rival any of the "big name" guitarists we are talking about.
Edited by cstack3 - February 24 2013 at 00:59 |
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Kati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 10 2010 Location: Earth Status: Offline Points: 6253 |
Posted: February 24 2013 at 00:50 |
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Rogerthat, I am fine with others having a difference of opinion really
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: February 24 2013 at 00:42 |
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I never said it's fake, by tricks, I mean it's the same approach. The same as on the Elegant Gypsy album. That is disappointing, to me. And I have watched McLaughlin play that way live so I know it's not all that unique either. But if he's your favourite, so be it. My lips are sealed on this.
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Kati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 10 2010 Location: Earth Status: Offline Points: 6253 |
Posted: February 24 2013 at 00:36 |
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grrrrr DiMeola plays no tricks, all is real. Here is my favorite https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy4K7lFFZII
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The Role of Virtuosity in Progressive Music
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Gerinski wrote: