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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2013 at 14:26
People who set up guitar contests or try to cut heads in Jazz/fusion are pretty much dismissed in my life. That was a huge mentality in the late 70's and through 80's that I tend to see as a waste of energy. I had studied guitar since age 7 and would be invited to a jam where king gymnastic chooch stood before me spending his afternoon trying to play faster than me in front of everyone. Very insulting and disgraceful to the art of music. It's okay for maybe 1 fusion jam, but not the entire course of the night. That's very macho, annoying, and moronic to me. On the road I met many older guitarist who played in the vain of Bucky Pizzarelli, George Barnes, Les Paul, and Django Reinhart. They jammed differently. They respected each other's expression and stayed out of each other's way. I spent more time with George Benson's live at Carnegie Hall 1975. He was very fast, clean, and expressive. Many outstanding players found the shredding contests to be moronic.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2013 at 15:56
Hi,
 
Virtuosity is highly over rated, and often mis-interpreted.
 
To the point that Ian Anderson could blow any classical flautist out of the room and the planet! And the music that Ian plays is considered way simpler than the classical material out there that uses flute, for example ... but they all lack one thing that Ian has that they don't ... FEELING ... and EXPRESSION!
 
If "progressive" is guilty of being virtuous, it would be that a lot of these people went out of their way to expand their language and expression, and in time that became a virtuosity in its own right ... I'm pretty sure that Robert Fripp and everyone in the first KC album would tell you that they were all kids just learning their music at 19 or 20 when they put the album together, but you can not dispute the strength of the feelings and words in that album ... which defined the music all along!
 
There are many folks, and bands out there that feature virtuosity, and in today's terms, you can look at a guitar in Dream Theater ... if that were a violin, it would be considered an absolute master playing it ... but it is an electric guitar, and we do not have the ability, strength, or beauty, to consider the Electric guitar an important instrument for an expression, like a violin has for 400 years, and so forth!
 
But is it necessary? Ask Richard Harvey ... I don't think so ... you want to do this, this way, and you do it ... I'm not sure that you are thinking about virtuosity when you are playing your music ... you just want to get it right to your own standards and designs and that has less to do with virtuosity, than it does your own expression.
 
By the time, you hear Jaco, Jean Luc Ponty, Frank Zappa, Keith Jarrett, Egberto Gismonti ... now your idea of "virtuosity" comes back into play ... but many folks would immediately say ... that's not progressive ... that's virtuosity ... and I am not sure that, both are exactly the same thing ... one looked at from the right and the other looked at from the left ... and the only thing that matters is the life the music creates in between those two opposite polar ends!
... none of the hits, none of the time ... now you know what the art is all about!
www.pedrosena.com
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2013 at 16:03
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

People who set up guitar contests or try to cut heads in Jazz/fusion are pretty much dismissed in my life. That was a huge mentality in the late 70's and through 80's that I tend to see as a waste of energy. I had studied guitar since age 7 and would be invited to a jam where king gymnastic chooch stood before me spending his afternoon trying to play faster than me in front of everyone. Very insulting and disgraceful to the art of music. It's okay for maybe 1 fusion jam, but not the entire course of the night. That's very macho, annoying, and moronic to me. On the road I met many older guitarist who played in the vain of Bucky Pizzarelli, George Barnes, Les Paul, and Django Reinhart. They jammed differently. They respected each other's expression and stayed out of each other's way. I spent more time with George Benson's live at Carnegie Hall 1975. He was very fast, clean, and expressive. Many outstanding players found the shredding contests to be moronic.

Great post, Toddler!  Yeah, the communication between musicians, especially onstage, is what sends me aloft! 

Best stage communication I can remember was always King Crimson (mind you, I saw the LTiA tour without Muir!).  Fripp was always the orchestra leader, perched Stage Left on his stool, directing his band with simple glances and nearly imperceptible nods.  Man, those suckers were TIGHT!!  

Frank Zappa was an extremely close second.  I once saw him conduct his band with a baton, standing in front, Gibson SG still hanging around his neck!!  

Yes seemed to communicate by telepathy, their music didn't involve much improv, so they could get away with their "stage in the round," where none of 'em could even see one another!!  Amazing but also a bit sterile.  

Probably the most incredible guitar duo I ever saw was Steve Vai and his co-guitarist, Mike Keneally, on the G3 tour in 1997....those guys could SHRED, note for note, through complicated time changes & key changes!!  Huh, Zappa alums!!  The FZ University must have been something (IF you lived through the experience!).

During the show I saw, Mike Keneally jammed over Fripp's live Soundscapes to open the show....it was unreal!  


So, I vote "Yea" for more virtuosity in prog music!  However, virtuosity is more than just speed or accuracy....it is respect for fellow musicians and audience, taste, and knowledge of when to do what. 

Sorry, rambled on!  Rock on, Toddler!


Edited by cstack3 - February 24 2013 at 16:15
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2013 at 20:38
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

People who set up guitar contests or try to cut heads in Jazz/fusion are pretty much dismissed in my life. That was a huge mentality in the late 70's and through 80's that I tend to see as a waste of energy. I had studied guitar since age 7 and would be invited to a jam where king gymnastic chooch stood before me spending his afternoon trying to play faster than me in front of everyone. Very insulting and disgraceful to the art of music. It's okay for maybe 1 fusion jam, but not the entire course of the night. That's very macho, annoying, and moronic to me. On the road I met many older guitarist who played in the vain of Bucky Pizzarelli, George Barnes, Les Paul, and Django Reinhart. They jammed differently. They respected each other's expression and stayed out of each other's way. I spent more time with George Benson's live at Carnegie Hall 1975. He was very fast, clean, and expressive. Many outstanding players found the shredding contests to be moronic.

Great post, Toddler!  Yeah, the communication between musicians, especially onstage, is what sends me aloft! 

Best stage communication I can remember was always King Crimson (mind you, I saw the LTiA tour without Muir!).  Fripp was always the orchestra leader, perched Stage Left on his stool, directing his band with simple glances and nearly imperceptible nods.  Man, those suckers were TIGHT!!  

Frank Zappa was an extremely close second.  I once saw him conduct his band with a baton, standing in front, Gibson SG still hanging around his neck!!  

Yes seemed to communicate by telepathy, their music didn't involve much improv, so they could get away with their "stage in the round," where none of 'em could even see one another!!  Amazing but also a bit sterile.  

Probably the most incredible guitar duo I ever saw was Steve Vai and his co-guitarist, Mike Keneally, on the G3 tour in 1997....those guys could SHRED, note for note, through complicated time changes & key changes!!  Huh, Zappa alums!!  The FZ University must have been something (IF you lived through the experience!).

During the show I saw, Mike Keneally jammed over Fripp's live Soundscapes to open the show....it was unreal!  


So, I vote "Yea" for more virtuosity in prog music!  However, virtuosity is more than just speed or accuracy....it is respect for fellow musicians and audience, taste, and knowledge of when to do what. 

Sorry, rambled on!  Rock on, Toddler!
 
Wow!...great experiences you had
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2013 at 23:13
Originally posted by Dayvenkirq Dayvenkirq wrote:


and that technical proficiency is only important to me in entertainment (think prog rock, and that's where I'm hitting the nail of relevance here), but never important to me in art. However, I was given the opportunity to infer by myself, on my own terms, that virtuosity and technical proficiency are two different animals, which means that virtuosity may have a place in art for me, be that in prog or not.


Be that as it may, if you say technical proficiency has no place in art, neither would virtuosity.   Virtuosity and technical proficiency are different animals, in the sense that virtuosity is more advanced and broader.   A virtuoso necessarily has to be technically proficient in the first place, and he combines it with the ability to express and understanding of songwriting and performing traditions.   Hence, the deeper you delve into art music, the greater the requirements of technical proficiency. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2013 at 00:03
^ I see. You are saying that technical proficiency is essential to virtuosity, though a person who is not a virtuoso can still be technically proficient. Did I get it right?
"Books were only one type of receptacle where we stored a lot of things we were afraid we might forget. There is nothing magical in them at all. The magic is only in what books say, ... ."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2013 at 00:34
Exactly.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2013 at 12:18
Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:



Holdsworth can play that fast too, and in legato with incredible chord changes. 





DiMeola relies on what, tremolo picking, over a repetitive pattern?    There are plenty of virtuosos I'd much rather listen to, someone like Larry Carlton plays the most interesting leads without ever relying on speed.  Just listen to the chord changes on Kid Charlemagne.  It's probably fair to say DiMeola paved the way for the annoying showboats of the 80s, who rendered the guitar God permanently boring for he has in common with them an obsession with speed. 
 
Brill vid you posted RogerthatSmile however I should put you across my lap and smack you on your bottom coz Al is brillll too Big smile this is for you WinkHughttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcsVOQ82wLA
 
 
You're funny! LOL....It's cool that you are a DiMeola fan. I think some cats criss-cross him with others like John Goodsall stating "Have a look see"..."this guy is fast too"...I'd like to clear the air of these intentions and say that in my case..it has to do with road travel..where in my youth I traveled along side  of guitarists who were older than me that had enough experience and chops to blow your head off and make you wonder why they were not signed to a label like DiMeola? I traveled for 30 years and could not believe the amazing musicians who did not rise above theatres and clubs. No one in particular knows who they are...but being 18 years old and traveling the road...you come to the realization that there is a tribe of guitarists underneath the so called "top of the game" guitarists like DiMeola, McLaughlin, and others who are in fact just as capable to be that diverse. They haven't been signed and if they were signed it was brief where upon they backed another fusion or folk artist on a session and their name was not credited....which was my case..LOL But seriously...I was simply hoping to reach you on that point alone without intruding upon or insulting your tastes in music. I like In the Land of tHE Midnight Sun, Casino, and his work on Romantic Warrior.
 
Hi Toddler Hug
Wow you must have some interesting stories to tell about travels. Big smile
You made a good point above. The odds in making it into the music industry is very slim, progressive music even worse, it's certainly not fair and most corporate office suits who make the key decisions don't even appreciate good music, in general they look at profit numbers on paper not the quality of music this is obvious. Luckily we have the internet now for artists to share and release their own music independently. Even so it's almost impossible for prog artists to make a living as musicians.
Another Hug  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2013 at 13:11
Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by TODDLER TODDLER wrote:

Originally posted by Kati Kati wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:



Holdsworth can play that fast too, and in legato with incredible chord changes. 





DiMeola relies on what, tremolo picking, over a repetitive pattern?    There are plenty of virtuosos I'd much rather listen to, someone like Larry Carlton plays the most interesting leads without ever relying on speed.  Just listen to the chord changes on Kid Charlemagne.  It's probably fair to say DiMeola paved the way for the annoying showboats of the 80s, who rendered the guitar God permanently boring for he has in common with them an obsession with speed. 
 
Brill vid you posted RogerthatSmile however I should put you across my lap and smack you on your bottom coz Al is brillll too Big smile this is for you WinkHughttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcsVOQ82wLA
 
 
You're funny! LOL....It's cool that you are a DiMeola fan. I think some cats criss-cross him with others like John Goodsall stating "Have a look see"..."this guy is fast too"...I'd like to clear the air of these intentions and say that in my case..it has to do with road travel..where in my youth I traveled along side  of guitarists who were older than me that had enough experience and chops to blow your head off and make you wonder why they were not signed to a label like DiMeola? I traveled for 30 years and could not believe the amazing musicians who did not rise above theatres and clubs. No one in particular knows who they are...but being 18 years old and traveling the road...you come to the realization that there is a tribe of guitarists underneath the so called "top of the game" guitarists like DiMeola, McLaughlin, and others who are in fact just as capable to be that diverse. They haven't been signed and if they were signed it was brief where upon they backed another fusion or folk artist on a session and their name was not credited....which was my case..LOL But seriously...I was simply hoping to reach you on that point alone without intruding upon or insulting your tastes in music. I like In the Land of tHE Midnight Sun, Casino, and his work on Romantic Warrior.
 
Hi Toddler Hug
Wow you must have some interesting stories to tell about travels. Big smile
You made a good point above. The odds in making it into the music industry is very slim, progressive music even worse, it's certainly not fair and most corporate office suits who make the key decisions don't even appreciate good music, in general they look at profit numbers on paper not the quality of music this is obvious. Luckily we have the internet now for artists to share and release their own music independently. Even so it's almost impossible for prog artists to make a living as musicians.
Another Hug  
 
I told this story before...but it always sums up my own life and has value. Steve Laury was a fine Jazz guitarist I knew from age 15 and on...in my hometown ..in Vineland N.J. He was 6 years older than me and very much to me an icon, mentor, as a teenager. He progressed to the west coast and played in the Jazz/fusion band FATTBURGER. They released several cd's and Steve eventually left releasing cd's as a solo artist. He became a internationally known Jazz artist and was offered a record deal with a major label (who shall remain nameless), through an old school pal who was at the time a record executive for this major label. The staff had been playing his cd and the head honcho decided to give Steve a whirl. He was playing Steve's cd in his office when in walked another Jazz/fusion guitarist who was more famous than Steve. I can't tell you his name for I could get into trouble. sorry. He told the boss not to sign Steve and it would not be in his best interest for the label to sign him. Steve lost a chance to take a step further and this jealous musician completely destroyed all of his high ideals. Steve is a fine guitarist and check out Steve Laury.."Shut Up And Listen" on Y.T.
 
Ronnie Kayfield ..I had played circuits with in the 70's. He was designing guitars as a sideline...while touring . Ozzy Osborne had just lost his guitarist Randy Rhodes in a horrific plane crash and decided to hire Brad Gillis. Ozzy usually bought guitars for his guitarists and so he met Ronnie. Ozzy asked him to demonstrate the guitar for him. Ronnie played identical to Randy Rhodes and Ozzy said he would pay for Ronnie's airline ticket and to meet him in England to begin the new rehearsals and chose Ronnie over Brad Gillis. Ronnie and his wife landed at the airport and were greeted by Pete Way (x-UFO). Pete Way told Ronnie and his wife that Ozzy was ill and that we should form our own band which became WAYSTED. WAYSTED then opened for Ozzy on a U.S. tour. When Ozzy saw Ronnie on stage with WAYSTED he later pulled him aside and said...'What bloody happened?" "I payed for your airline ticket!" "You were supposed to show up and what happened?" That's a pretty rude awakening ? I mean..to say he is traveling on the road with Pete Way and this happens?
 
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2013 at 13:37
Sorry for being nit-picky but his name was spelled Randy Rhoads.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2013 at 14:07
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

Sorry for being nit-picky but his name was spelled Randy Rhoads.
 
Hello you nit-picky Big smileHug
 
But in all seriousness now wow Toddler's post above is seriously the negative reality and not fair :( bah awwww the typical sad side of human anarchism and epiphany of selfishness. I would be traumatized really Unhappy 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2013 at 15:08
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,
 
Virtuosity is highly over rated, and often mis-interpreted.
 
To the point that Ian Anderson could blow any classical flautist out of the room and the planet! And the music that Ian plays is considered way simpler than the classical material out there that uses flute, for example ... but they all lack one thing that Ian has that they don't ... FEELING ... and EXPRESSION!
 
If "progressive" is guilty of being virtuous, it would be that a lot of these people went out of their way to expand their language and expression, and in time that became a virtuosity in its own right ... I'm pretty sure that Robert Fripp and everyone in the first KC album would tell you that they were all kids just learning their music at 19 or 20 when they put the album together, but you can not dispute the strength of the feelings and words in that album ... which defined the music all along!
 
There are many folks, and bands out there that feature virtuosity, and in today's terms, you can look at a guitar in Dream Theater ... if that were a violin, it would be considered an absolute master playing it ... but it is an electric guitar, and we do not have the ability, strength, or beauty, to consider the Electric guitar an important instrument for an expression, like a violin has for 400 years, and so forth!
 
But is it necessary? Ask Richard Harvey ... I don't think so ... you want to do this, this way, and you do it ... I'm not sure that you are thinking about virtuosity when you are playing your music ... you just want to get it right to your own standards and designs and that has less to do with virtuosity, than it does your own expression.
 
By the time, you hear Jaco, Jean Luc Ponty, Frank Zappa, Keith Jarrett, Egberto Gismonti ... now your idea of "virtuosity" comes back into play ... but many folks would immediately say ... that's not progressive ... that's virtuosity ... and I am not sure that, both are exactly the same thing ... one looked at from the right and the other looked at from the left ... and the only thing that matters is the life the music creates in between those two opposite polar ends!

for the most part I agree although towards the end you lost me ( that happens to me a lot admittedly)

You can have the tools of the trade but have nothing interesting to make with them

my favourite musician has always been Keith Emerson because I believe he wanted to explore and discover new ideas. See what worked and what didn't.. He was often tagged as a 'virtuoso' yet there were probably 20 or 30 better players on a technical level around in rock music and prog at the time but like Ian Anderson  he had a personality and wanted to express something beyond the same ole same ole. That for me is what progressive music is all about not some pursuit of perfection.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2013 at 17:55
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:



Hi,
 
Virtuosity is highly over rated, and often mis-interpreted.
 
To the point that Ian Anderson could blow any classical flautist out of the room and the planet! And the music that Ian plays is considered way simpler than the classical material out there that uses flute, for example ... but they all lack one thing that Ian has that they don't ... FEELING ... and EXPRESSION!
 
If "progressive" is guilty of being virtuous, it would be that a lot of these people went out of their way to expand their language and expression, and in time that became a virtuosity in its own right ... I'm pretty sure that Robert Fripp and everyone in the first KC album would tell you that they were all kids just learning their music at 19 or 20 when they put the album together, but you can not dispute the strength of the feelings and words in that album ... which defined the music all along!
 
There are many folks, and bands out there that feature virtuosity, and in today's terms, you can look at a guitar in Dream Theater ... if that were a violin, it would be considered an absolute master playing it ... but it is an electric guitar, and we do not have the ability, strength, or beauty, to consider the Electric guitar an important instrument for an expression, like a violin has for 400 years, and so forth!
 
But is it necessary? Ask Richard Harvey ... I don't think so ... you want to do this, this way, and you do it ... I'm not sure that you are thinking about virtuosity when you are playing your music ... you just want to get it right to your own standards and designs and that has less to do with virtuosity, than it does your own expression.
 
By the time, you hear Jaco, Jean Luc Ponty, Frank Zappa, Keith Jarrett, Egberto Gismonti ... now your idea of "virtuosity" comes back into play ... but many folks would immediately say ... that's not progressive ... that's virtuosity ... and I am not sure that, both are exactly the same thing ... one looked at from the right and the other looked at from the left ... and the only thing that matters is the life the music creates in between those two opposite polar ends!
I disagree that classical flute players do not play with Expression and feeling, listen to Anton Bruckner's stirring 7th Symphony, and the first two movements alone have flute soloing that is so full of feeling and expression, it's unreal. That is, unreal under the right classical flautist. Two that come to mind that are full of expression and feeling are the Principal Flautist of the Boston Symphony during the 50s-70s-don't know her name, but have heard her play, and it is something! The other is Claude Monteux, son of the venerable Maestro Pierre Monteux, again, full of feeling and expression.
      Another thing i disagree with is what you said about Ian's playing, it is sometimes just as complex and intricate as classical music players.

Edited by presdoug - February 25 2013 at 19:15
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2013 at 18:02
For me, virtuosity all depends on the song, the mood... A virtuoso ideally would like to showcase their talent as a musician, and it's beautiful! But, it's not just prog that harnesses such elements. There are plenty of other genres with room for virtuosity! There is such a thing as too much virtuosity, in my opinion, I need a little something to break it up. 
Although prog is heavily associated with fantastical solos and musicians so talented it's pretty much mind blowing, it's also just as good without sometimes.

As a response to all the discussion about who might be the fastest (insert) player... I bet there's some guy somewhere in his house with the most ridiculous, off the scale talent that utterly defies physics... Who can't play in front of people and shrivels up at the thought of recording! That'd be a shame Tongue

Edited by dysoriented - February 25 2013 at 18:09
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2013 at 18:20
I think everyone's opinion is spot on here, all differ yet could be compilled together as a whole Stern Smile Every comment I read (except saying Al is crap ;) hihihi) I do think and agree too Smile
Also I like Toddler very much too!!!


Edited by Kati - February 25 2013 at 21:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2013 at 05:57
The hunch that many of the guys and ladies we call virtuosos in the rock world are possibly seen as not much more than simply decent musicians by good classically trained musicians (e.g. those playing with respected orchestras, and not limiting to instrumentalists but including also composers) is always lurking in these discussions.

Besides the purely technical instrumentalist skill level, knowledge of theory etc, many classically-oriented people remark that a lot of renowned rock musicians would be lost without the figure of the producer who is the one converting their 'half-baked amateur-level ideas and limited understanding of sound' into music worth listening to. Classical orchestras made of competent musicians do not need a producer to sound good (they may need a sound engineer to adapt to the venue characteristics or to master the recording process but that's not in the same sense, rock bands can really take radically different sounds depending on the producer).

Personally I'm not so harsh and I prefer to see it as comparing apples with oranges, with classical musicians virtuosity focusing more on consistently precise execution, while rock musicians are allowed to showcase talents which classical musicians have often inhibited (that's not saying that improvisation does not exist in classical music, it certainly does for the soloists).

What are your thoughts on the subject?




Edited by Gerinski - February 26 2013 at 05:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2013 at 06:31
A good case in point for me is, say Keith Emerson - excellent keyboard exponent - and did produce some solo's of sublime execution...but as a whole I have always prefered Banks, Wakeman, Badens, Greenslade and more recently, Per Lindt, Lalo Huber and Orford.....This is no refelection of the varying musical proficiency of these keyboard players, just a preference inside my head...similarly - Stolt is my favourite guitarist because he has reached into my psyche with his solo's than any of the speedy axe-merchants of prog-metal...again just my personal taste.....Thus Mosh prefers Ian andersons flute playing over classical flautists....I cant say because I have listened to neither...but that is surely down to taste and no measure of Andersons superiority as a flautist???
Play me my song.....Here it comes again.......
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2013 at 07:46
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:

The hunch that many of the guys and ladies we call virtuosos in the rock world are possibly seen as not much more than simply decent musicians by good classically trained musicians (e.g. those playing with respected orchestras, and not limiting to instrumentalists but including also composers) is always lurking in these discussions.

Besides the purely technical instrumentalist skill level, knowledge of theory etc, many classically-oriented people remark that a lot of renowned rock musicians would be lost without the figure of the producer who is the one converting their 'half-baked amateur-level ideas and limited understanding of sound' into music worth listening to. Classical orchestras made of competent musicians do not need a producer to sound good (they may need a sound engineer to adapt to the venue characteristics or to master the recording process but that's not in the same sense, rock bands can really take radically different sounds depending on the producer).

Personally I'm not so harsh and I prefer to see it as comparing apples with oranges, with classical musicians virtuosity focusing more on consistently precise execution, while rock musicians are allowed to showcase talents which classical musicians have often inhibited (that's not saying that improvisation does not exist in classical music, it certainly does for the soloists).

What are your thoughts on the subject?




I think it depends.   I do believe there are musicians in rock, especially guitarists, with ability to rival classical musicians.   However, virtuosity is more loosely used in rock (refer TODDLER's suggestion that people are impressed by speed) and superhuman powers may be attributed to musicians who are probably not all that virtuosic.   The requirements in terms of technical skill are more exacting in classical music but there is greater freedom for individual expression in rock, which in itself poses a challenge to the musician.  It is not enough to merely play well but the player must also establish his distinct style.
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presdoug View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2013 at 08:55
Originally posted by Gerinski Gerinski wrote:


The hunch that many of the guys and ladies we call virtuosos in the rock world are possibly seen as not much more than simply decent musicians by good classically trained musicians (e.g. those playing with respected orchestras, and not limiting to instrumentalists but including also composers) is always lurking in these discussions.
Besides the purely technical instrumentalist skill level, knowledge of theory etc, many classically-oriented people remark that a lot of renowned rock musicians would be lost without the figure of the producer who is the one converting their 'half-baked amateur-level ideas and limited understanding of sound' into music worth listening to. Classical orchestras made of competent musicians do not need a producer to sound good (they may need a sound engineer to adapt to the venue characteristics or to master the recording process but that's not in the same sense, rock bands can really take radically different sounds <span style="line-height: 1.2;">depending on the producer).</span>
Personally I'm not so harsh and I prefer to see it as comparing apples with oranges, with classical musicians virtuosity focusing more on consistently precise execution, while rock musicians are allowed to showcase talents which classical musicians have often inhibited (that's not saying that improvisation does not exist in classical music, it certainly does for the soloists).
What are your thoughts on the subject?

Though a producer is not of paramount importance in the conveying of a group of orchestral, classical music musicians, it is important to note that something essential to them, that is usually absent from the stage of the rock musician, is the conductor. The conductor's role is to bring out the best in the orchestral musician, at least what that conductor sees as their best. Thus, the orchestra's response is totally a re-creative art.
          And different conductors can bring out different virtues in a completely identical piece of music, for example, Toscanini stressed precision in playing, while Furtwangler brought out the romantic, almost mystical element in a composition, etc.
       
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2013 at 13:49
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

A good case in point for me is, say Keith Emerson - excellent keyboard exponent - and did produce some solo's of sublime execution...but as a whole I have always prefered Banks, Wakeman, Badens, Greenslade and more recently, Per Lindt, Lalo Huber and Orford.....This is no refelection of the varying musical proficiency of these keyboard players, just a preference inside my head...similarly - Stolt is my favourite guitarist because he has reached into my psyche with his solo's than any of the speedy axe-merchants of prog-metal...again just my personal taste.....Thus Mosh prefers Ian andersons flute playing over classical flautists....I cant say because I have listened to neither...but that is surely down to taste and no measure of Andersons superiority as a flautist???

always comes down to taste. Moshkito was ( I think) pointing out that all virtuosity has boundaries. You mark the boundaries and then express yourself within those confines. Music which has less reach can be no less interesting. Music with greater reach on a technical level can be tedious if nothing other than speed (or virtuosity) is being expressed. But this is basically just another way of saying that music without creativity is pointless (imo)
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